Quackbusters

Quoted message said:

Subject: Quackbusters
From: [email hidden] (Angela)

Quoted message said:

I read an article about people who hang out on various groups and
pounce on any reasonable discussion that might lead someone (lucky
person!) to escape the 'system'. I read that these people are paid.
How else can they devote so much

yeah..we ARE waiting for our checks tho....

personally NO one is forced "into the system"...ya wanna try the snake oil..by
all means go right ahead..

those of "us" that you accuse of being "paid" are mostly in the business ...of
putting back together those of "you" who eschew real in lieu of alternative
medicine

in the us that means "we" get to pick up your pieces...since "you" will surely
show up in OUR er's in half dead states and DEMAND main stream medicine when it
is likely too late...

so...do what you want to do...but be serious...again...the conspiracy
theories...we get PAID for sharing our expertise?? and "debunking" the assinine
Jan Drews of the world???

yikes...

hawki

hawki

Angela <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I read an article about people who hang out on various groups and
pounce on any reasonable discussion that might lead someone (lucky
person!) to escape the 'system'. I read that these people are paid.
How else can they devote so much time and energy to their cause? I had
time once because I was ill but now there is too much to do to be on
the net everyday. These people are on everyday - or close to it -
ever since the support groups began.

Where did you read that, and where can I sign up?

Quoted message said:

It just happens to be some of the same nasties on every site I visited
to do some reading. This type are on ADD group, Asthma group, Dyslexia
group, Kid's Health group. etc. Any group that someone might go
looking for alternative information.

That's probably because what you don't want are people selling you all kinds
of BS alternatives without any basis to think it might actually do some
good. And, often times, the information presented by alternative medicine
proponents is simply wrong.

Quoted message said:

Some doctors want you brainwashed. DON"T ask questions. DON'T think.
DON'T have expectations of health. If you are 'cured' it's the doctor
expertise. If you die it's God's will. Either way they get paid and
what else matters to some of them?

Most docs I know, and I know quite a few, won't ever state that if you die
it's God's will. This is what is known as YABA (yet another baseless
assertion)

Quoted message said:

The real quack is the closed-minded prig who would rather harm a
patient than admit s/he doesn't have an answer.

Exactly. There's a lot of that going on in alternative health.

Quoted message said:

A(The?) leading cause of death today is iatrogenic illness. Is this a
plan?

It's not true. it's YABA.

Quoted message said:

From the Hippocratic Oath: 'First Do No Harm'.

And those of you who think you are doing everyone a favour by jumping
on everything with your excellent sarcastic wit because of your 'bad
experience' with alternative medicine, remember some people are
looking for a conversation and not everybody has a steel hide. First
do no harm is a good idea in any walk of life.

--

Robert Bronsing

Can't you see?
It all makes perfect sense,
expressed in dollars and cents, pounds, shillings and pence

(R. Waters)

Actually I sympathise with you. Healthfraud activity should be primarily
directed at the activity of quacks, not the potentially "quacked". It is
also not fair to target the desperate, who may be quite justified in hoping
for a miracle in unlikely places.

That said, everyone has the right to know when a health care claim is held
by many to be dubious, inadequately supported by evidence, or just plain
ridiculous.

There is also no such thing as a quackbuster. The people attacking
alternative claims include physicists, parasitologists, psychologists,
chemists, and electrical engineers..

Quoted message said:

From the Hippocratic Oath: 'First Do No Harm'.

Extreme remedies are very appropriate for extreme diseases. --- Hippocrates

What drugs will not cure, the knife will; what the knife will not cure, the
cautery will; what the cautery will not cure must be considered
urable. ----- Hippocrates

There are in fact two things, science and opinion; the former begets
knowledge, the latter ignorance. ---Hippocrates

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

What drugs will not cure, the knife will; what the knife will not cure,

the

Quoted message said:

cautery will; what the cautery will not cure must be considered
urable. ----- Hippocrates

That should be "incurable". I don't think H was into urotherapy.

Peter M

--

"Bronsing" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Angela <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I read an article about people who hang out on various groups and
pounce on any reasonable discussion that might lead someone (lucky
person!) to escape the 'system'. I read that these people are paid.
How else can they devote so much time and energy to their cause? I had
time once because I was ill but now there is too much to do to be on
the net everyday. These people are on everyday - or close to it -
ever since the support groups began.

Where did you read that, and where can I sign up?

Quoted message said:

It just happens to be some of the same nasties on every site I visited
to do some reading. This type are on ADD group, Asthma group, Dyslexia
group, Kid's Health group. etc. Any group that someone might go
looking for alternative information.

That's probably because what you don't want are people selling you all

kinds

Quoted message said:

of BS alternatives without any basis to think it might actually do some
good. And, often times, the information presented by alternative medicine
proponents is simply wrong.

Quoted message said:

Some doctors want you brainwashed. DON"T ask questions. DON'T think.
DON'T have expectations of health. If you are 'cured' it's the doctor
expertise. If you die it's God's will. Either way they get paid and
what else matters to some of them?

Most docs I know, and I know quite a few, won't ever state that if you die
it's God's will. This is what is known as YABA (yet another baseless
assertion)

Besides, most doctors I know, and I know a lot of them, prefer patients who
ask questions, think, have healthcare expectations, and are well informed
about their health and diseases. The job is much easier when patients
participate in the process.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The real quack is the closed-minded prig who would rather harm a
patient than admit s/he doesn't have an answer.

Exactly. There's a lot of that going on in alternative health.

Quoted message said:

A(The?) leading cause of death today is iatrogenic illness. Is this a
plan?

It's not true. it's YABA.

Quoted message said:

From the Hippocratic Oath: 'First Do No Harm'.

And those of you who think you are doing everyone a favour by jumping
on everything with your excellent sarcastic wit because of your 'bad
experience' with alternative medicine, remember some people are
looking for a conversation and not everybody has a steel hide. First
do no harm is a good idea in any walk of life.

--

Robert Bronsing

Can't you see?
It all makes perfect sense,
expressed in dollars and cents, pounds, shillings and pence

(R. Waters)

(Angela) said:

I read an article about people who hang out on various groups and
pounce on any reasonable discussion that might lead someone (lucky
person!) to escape the 'system'. I read that these people are paid.
How else can they devote so much time and energy to their cause?

h. Kooks are incapable of intellectual debate. Kooks believe they are
in possession of the absolute TRUTH on a given subject or subjects and
they are here to share that truth, not debate it. Since kooks are
always right and will never ever admit to being wrong (see d), they
refuse to debate their beliefs and tolerate no skepticism toward them.
To a kook, anyone who disagrees with them MUST be either ignorant,
insane or a paid disinformation agent out to discredit them
(see c).

On Fri, 1 Aug 2003 17:43:12 +1000, "Peter Moran" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What drugs will not cure, the knife will; what the knife will not cure,

the

Quoted message said:

cautery will; what the cautery will not cure must be considered
urable. ----- Hippocrates

That should be "incurable". I don't think H was into urotherapy.

Peter M

What about Euro-therapy ?

(Angela) said:

I read an article about people who hang out on various groups and
pounce on any reasonable discussion that might lead someone (lucky
person!) to escape the 'system'.

Where did you read this article?

Quoted message said:

I read that these people are paid.

I'm paid ... but not to post to newsgroups.

Quoted message said:

How else can they devote so much time and energy to their cause? I had
time once because I was ill but now there is too much to do to be on
the net everyday. These people are on everyday - or close to it -
ever since the support groups began.

It's a hobby. Some people watch TV. I read newsgroups.

Quoted message said:

It just happens to be some of the same nasties on every site I visited
to do some reading. This type are on ADD group, Asthma group, Dyslexia
group, Kid's Health group. etc. Any group that someone might go
looking for alternative information.

Well, someone has to point out that there are well-researched,
tested alternatives to "alteenative medicine".

Tsu

--
To doubt everything or to believe everything
are two equally convenient solutions; both
dispense with the necessity of reflection.
- Jules Henri Poincaré

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Angela) said:

I read an article about people who hang out on various groups and
pounce on any reasonable discussion that might lead someone (lucky
person!) to escape the 'system'.

Really? Where did you read this article? Please provide the citation or
the URL where you found it. I'd like to read it myself to determine how
well-documented it is.

Quoted message said:

I read that these people are paid.

I wish! Now I really want to see that article you cite, to find out
where I can sign up to get on this gravy train! ;-)

Quoted message said:

How else can they devote so much time and energy to their cause?

Well, it's really not a lot of time out of my 12-14 hour days at work
anyway, and it gets me warmed up for my real writing. And if in addition
it educates someone or helps someone avoid a dubious treatment, so much
the better. It also helps me find out what kinds of alternative
treatments (both promising and bogus) my patients might ask me about; so
in that way it is, to some extent, job-related "research."

Quoted message said:

I had
time once because I was ill but now there is too much to do to be on
the net everyday. These people are on everyday - or close to it -
ever since the support groups began.

Don't kid yourself. So are quite a few pushing alternative medicine.

Quoted message said:

It just happens to be some of the same nasties on every site I visited
to do some reading. This type are on ADD group, Asthma group, Dyslexia
group, Kid's Health group. etc. Any group that someone might go
looking for alternative information.

So?

Quoted message said:

Some doctors want you brainwashed. DON"T ask questions. DON'T think.
DON'T have expectations of health. If you are 'cured' it's the doctor
expertise. If you die it's God's will.

You're starting to get a bit ridiculous now. I don't know any doctors
who would say it was "God's will" if you die. And the truly competent
doctors I know would never claim it was their "expertise" that saved you
(even if that happened to be true).

Quoted message said:

Either way they get paid and
what else matters to some of them?

Even if true, how is this different from many of the quacks pushing
various alternative "cures for all diseases" (yes, I'm referring to
Hulda Clark)?

Quoted message said:

The real quack is the closed-minded prig who would rather harm a
patient than admit s/he doesn't have an answer.

Which describes a great number of the alternative medicine scammers.

Quoted message said:

A(The?) leading cause of death today is iatrogenic illness.Is this a
plan?

On what basis do you make this assertion? Please provide some scientific
articles to back this assertion up.

Quoted message said:

From the Hippocratic Oath: 'First Do No Harm'.

Precisely. I consider it to be harm when a patient unknowingly believes
bogus claims for a treament I know to be ineffective.

Quoted message said:

And those of you who think you are doing everyone a favour by jumping
on everything with your excellent sarcastic wit because of your 'bad
experience' with alternative medicine, remember some people are
looking for a conversation and not everybody has a steel hide. First
do no harm is a good idea in any walk of life.

If you remain civil, a steel hide is rarely necessary. However, if
you're going to go on the attack, you're dreaming if you think that you
won't get responses.
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

Angela said:

I read an article about people who hang out on various groups and
pounce on any reasonable discussion that might lead someone (lucky
person!) to escape the 'system'. I read that these people are paid.
How else can they devote so much time and energy to their cause? I had
time once because I was ill but now there is too much to do to be on
the net everyday. These people are on everyday - or close to it -
ever since the support groups began.

It just happens to be some of the same nasties on every site I visited
to do some reading. This type are on ADD group, Asthma group, Dyslexia
group, Kid's Health group. etc. Any group that someone might go
looking for alternative information.

Some doctors want you brainwashed. DON"T ask questions. DON'T think.
DON'T have expectations of health. If you are 'cured' it's the doctor
expertise. If you die it's God's will. Either way they get paid and
what else matters to some of them?

The real quack is the closed-minded prig who would rather harm a
patient than admit s/he doesn't have an answer.

A(The?) leading cause of death today is iatrogenic illness. Is this a
plan?

From the Hippocratic Oath: 'First Do No Harm'.

And those of you who think you are doing everyone a favour by jumping
on everything with your excellent sarcastic wit because of your 'bad
experience' with alternative medicine, remember some people are
looking for a conversation and not everybody has a steel hide. First
do no harm is a good idea in any walk of life.

Best wishes. Angela.

Hi Angela.

This is your third post to m.h.a. and the second one where you complain
about hearing all sides.

Learn to live with it, as that is the nature of usenet.

Jan said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Quackbusters
From: [email hidden] (Angela)
Date: 7/31/2003 8:42 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

I read an article about people who hang out on various groups and
pounce on any reasonable discussion that might lead someone (lucky
person!) to escape the 'system'. I read that these people are paid.
How else can they devote so much time and energy to their cause? I had
time once because I was ill but now there is too much to do to be on
the net everyday. These people are on everyday - or close to it -
ever since the support groups began.

It just happens to be some of the same nasties on every site I visited
to do some reading. This type are on ADD group, Asthma group, Dyslexia
group, Kid's Health group. etc. Any group that someone might go
looking for alternative information.

Some doctors want you brainwashed. DON"T ask questions. DON'T think.
DON'T have expectations of health. If you are 'cured' it's the doctor
expertise. If you die it's God's will. Either way they get paid and
what else matters to some of them?

The real quack is the closed-minded prig who would rather harm a
patient than admit s/he doesn't have an answer.

AMEN!!!! E G O!!

Quoted message said:

A(The?) leading cause of death today is iatrogenic illness. Is this a
plan?

Quoted message said:

From the Hippocratic Oath: 'First Do No Harm'.

Quoted message said:

And those of you who think you are doing everyone a favour by jumping
on everything with your excellent sarcastic wit because of your 'bad
experience' with alternative medicine, remember some people are
looking for a conversation and not everybody has a steel hide. First
do no harm is a good idea in any walk of life.

Best wishes. Angela.

Ditto and God Bless!

Jan, Angela has no posting history. You know what that means.

"Angela" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I read an article about people who hang out on various groups and
pounce on any reasonable discussion that might lead someone (lucky
person!) to escape the 'system'. I read that these people are paid.
How else can they devote so much time and energy to their cause? ...

snip..

Actually, it is a form of entertainment -- and sometimes educational.
Though to keep it easier I have killfiled some of the more prolific folks
(like Jan, Debbie, rb, etc), since it is more interesting to read the
responses to their posts.

As for payment, well I actually wrote a check TO the Quachwatch, because I
support its goals to educate folks about health fraud. I found them when I
was researching what turned out to be very bad advice I got from some
clueless relative about my kids (always use caution when getting advice
about children's medical conditions when the advisor is a single childless
person who majored in Romance Languages who won't even take their own
naturapath's suggestion to get more exercise!).

By the way you have never answered how you "homeopathically" treat
emergencies like broken bones or massive bleeding.

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Quackbusters
From: "Bronsing" [email hidden]
Date: 7/31/2003 10:58 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Angela <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I read an article about people who hang out on various groups and
pounce on any reasonable discussion that might lead someone (lucky
person!) to escape the 'system'. I read that these people are paid.
How else can they devote so much time and energy to their cause? I had
time once because I was ill but now there is too much to do to be on
the net everyday. These people are on everyday - or close to it -
ever since the support groups began.

Where did you read that, and where can I sign up?

Quoted message said:

It just happens to be some of the same nasties on every site I visited
to do some reading. This type are on ADD group, Asthma group, Dyslexia
group, Kid's Health group. etc. Any group that someone might go
looking for alternative information.

That's probably because what you don't want are people selling you all kinds
of BS alternatives without any basis to think it might actually do some
good. And, often times, the information presented by alternative medicine
proponents is simply wrong.

And there you have it, wwithout knowing any subjects discussed, most
alternative is wrong. And anyone who sells should go straight to jail, do not
pass go, do not collect $200.00.

Quoted message said:

Some doctors want you brainwashed. DON"T ask questions. DON'T think.

Quoted message said:

DON'T have expectations of health. If you are 'cured' it's the doctor
expertise. If you die it's God's will. Either way they get paid and
what else matters to some of them?

Quoted message said:

Most docs I know, and I know quite a few, won't ever state that if you die
it's God's will. This is what is known as YABA (yet another baseless
assertion)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The real quack is the closed-minded prig who would rather harm a
patient than admit s/he doesn't have an answer.

Quoted message said:

Exactly. There's a lot of that going on in alternative health.

You sure did twist that one. In fact it is the opposite. There are many many
unanswered health problems withn conventional medicine. THAT is one big reason
so may are turning to alternative.

Quoted message said:

A(The?) leading cause of death today is iatrogenic illness. Is this a

Quoted message said:

plan?

Quoted message said:

It's not true. it's YABA.

It is not true is a YABA. Every read the paper, watch TV??

Quoted message said:

From the Hippocratic Oath: 'First Do No Harm'.

Quoted message said:

And those of you who think you are doing everyone a favour by jumping

Quoted message said:

on everything with your excellent sarcastic wit because of your 'bad
experience' with alternative medicine, remember some people are
looking for a conversation and not everybody has a steel hide. First
do no harm is a good idea in any

walk of life.

Many here have have ZERO experience with using alternative medicine, therefore
they reply with what they have heard, put forth by organized medicine and
dentistry.

Jan

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Quackbusters
From: "Peter Moran" [email hidden]
Date: 7/31/2003 11:39 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Actually I sympathise with you. Healthfraud activity should be primarily
directed at the activity of quacks, not the potentially "quacked". It is
also not fair to target the desperate, who may be quite justified in hoping
for a miracle in unlikely places.

That said, everyone has the right to know when a health care claim is held
by many to be dubious, inadequately supported by evidence, or just plain
ridiculous.

Like this:

http://stacks.msnbc.com/news/809196.asp?cp1=1

Now, what were you saying about health fraud??

Jan

(Jan) said:

Quoted message said:

It's not true. it's YABA.

It is not true is a YABA. Every read the paper, watch TV??

Now there are two good sources of medical information... NOT !

Jan said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Quackbusters
From: "Bronsing" [email hidden]
Date: 7/31/2003 10:58 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Angela <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I read an article about people who hang out on various groups and
pounce on any reasonable discussion that might lead someone (lucky
person!) to escape the 'system'. I read that these people are paid.
How else can they devote so much time and energy to their cause? I had
time once because I was ill but now there is too much to do to be on
the net everyday. These people are on everyday - or close to it -
ever since the support groups began.

Where did you read that, and where can I sign up?

Quoted message said:

It just happens to be some of the same nasties on every site I visited
to do some reading. This type are on ADD group, Asthma group, Dyslexia
group, Kid's Health group. etc. Any group that someone might go
looking for alternative information.

That's probably because what you don't want are people selling you all kinds
of BS alternatives without any basis to think it might actually do some
good. And, often times, the information presented by alternative medicine
proponents is simply wrong.

And there you have it, wwithout knowing any subjects discussed, most
alternative is wrong. And anyone who sells should go straight to jail, do not
pass go, do not collect $200.00.

The Alties should go directly to jail for some of their scams. However,
hulda, et al, charge more than $200.00.

snip

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The real quack is the closed-minded prig who would rather harm a
patient than admit s/he doesn't have an answer.

Quoted message said:

Exactly. There's a lot of that going on in alternative health.

You sure did twist that one. In fact it is the opposite. There are many many
unanswered health problems withn conventional medicine. THAT is one big reason
so may are turning to alternative.

While thee may be unanswered health question in RealMedicine, the
answers in AltMed are often incorrect.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A(The?) leading cause of death today is iatrogenic illness. Is this a

Quoted message said:

plan?

Quoted message said:

It's not true. it's YABA.

It is not true is a YABA. Every read the paper, watch TV??

Ever get real facts, not something digested by the media?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From the Hippocratic Oath: 'First Do No Harm'.

Quoted message said:

And those of you who think you are doing everyone a favour by jumping

Quoted message said:

on everything with your excellent sarcastic wit because of your 'bad
experience' with alternative medicine, remember some people are
looking for a conversation and not everybody has a steel hide. First
do no harm is a good idea in any
walk of life.

Many here have have ZERO experience with using alternative medicine, therefore
they reply with what they have heard, put forth by organized medicine and
dentistry.

Experience is often irrelevant.

HCN said:

"Angela" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I read an article about people who hang out on various groups and
pounce on any reasonable discussion that might lead someone (lucky
person!) to escape the 'system'. I read that these people are paid.
How else can they devote so much time and energy to their cause? ...

snip..

Actually, it is a form of entertainment -- and sometimes educational.
Though to keep it easier I have killfiled some of the more prolific folks
(like Jan, Debbie, rb, etc), since it is more interesting to read the
responses to their posts.

As for payment, well I actually wrote a check TO the Quachwatch, because I
support its goals to educate folks about health fraud. I found them when I
was researching what turned out to be very bad advice I got from some
clueless relative about my kids (always use caution when getting advice
about children's medical conditions when the advisor is a single childless
person who majored in Romance Languages who won't even take their own
naturapath's suggestion to get more exercise!).

By the way you have never answered how you "homeopathically" treat
emergencies like broken bones or massive bleeding.

Angela has never answered any questions posed to her.

tools said:

"HCN" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Angela" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I read an article about people who hang out on various groups and
pounce on any reasonable discussion that might lead someone (lucky
person!) to escape the 'system'. I read that these people are paid.
How else can they devote so much time and energy to their cause? ...

snip..

Actually, it is a form of entertainment -- and sometimes educational.
Though to keep it easier I have killfiled some of the more prolific folks
(like Jan, Debbie, rb, etc), since it is more interesting to read the
responses to their posts.

As for payment, well I actually wrote a check TO the Quachwatch, because I
support its goals to educate folks about health fraud. I found them when

I

Quoted message said:

was researching what turned out to be very bad advice I got from some
clueless relative about my kids (always use caution when getting advice
about children's medical conditions when the advisor is a single childless
person who majored in Romance Languages who won't even take their own
naturapath's suggestion to get more exercise!).

By the way you have never answered how you "homeopathically" treat
emergencies like broken bones or massive bleeding.

Surgery does not have much to offer for the common cold, your point is?

My point is that you do not know the difference between a common cold
and a fractured femur.

bloody well said
have a look here for an example
http://www.altered-states.net/barry/thoughtpolice/thoughtpolice.htm

"Angela" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I read an article about people who hang out on various groups and
pounce on any reasonable discussion that might lead someone (lucky
person!) to escape the 'system'. I read that these people are paid.
How else can they devote so much time and energy to their cause? I had
time once because I was ill but now there is too much to do to be on
the net everyday. These people are on everyday - or close to it -
ever since the support groups began.

It just happens to be some of the same nasties on every site I visited
to do some reading. This type are on ADD group, Asthma group, Dyslexia
group, Kid's Health group. etc. Any group that someone might go
looking for alternative information.

Some doctors want you brainwashed. DON"T ask questions. DON'T think.
DON'T have expectations of health. If you are 'cured' it's the doctor
expertise. If you die it's God's will. Either way they get paid and
what else matters to some of them?

The real quack is the closed-minded prig who would rather harm a
patient than admit s/he doesn't have an answer.

A(The?) leading cause of death today is iatrogenic illness. Is this a
plan?

From the Hippocratic Oath: 'First Do No Harm'.

And those of you who think you are doing everyone a favour by jumping
on everything with your excellent sarcastic wit because of your 'bad
experience' with alternative medicine, remember some people are
looking for a conversation and not everybody has a steel hide. First
do no harm is a good idea in any walk of life.

Best wishes. Angela.