Quackbusters

On Sun, 03 Aug 2003 20:39:37 GMT, [email hidden] (David

Wright) said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Spammin' Dave gLowlife said:

"Happy Dog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bollocks. Antibiotics, for example, cure many types of bacterial
infections. Period.

Exactly, they kill a lot of the bacteria, but they certainly don't cure the
weakness that allowed them to occur in the first place. Do any of you
pack of fools have any understanding of what the immune system is
is or why it even was invented???!!! Do you think YOUJ have one that
is functional? Why?

Oh, do tell us all about the immune system. Tell us all about
cell-mediated immunity. Tell us about other types of immunity.
Tell us about helper T-cells and NK and all those other great
things. What, you can't?

Never mind your immune system -- do you have a functioning
cerebral cortex?

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

Neuroscience is a much more complex study than Immunology.

Well, not really, but it sounded good at the time.

WB

Dave said:

Quoted message said:

Real deficiencies in the immune system are relatively uncommon and when
they occur they are not "restored" as easily as taking various herbs or

vitamins.

Well, this sounds like a grandiose statement. How did you come by this
knowledge?
Is it science based? How would you explain the fact that when I was a
child, I never knew
a kid who had asthma or allergies. Today, I see high percentages of young
kids who have
these conditions. What are your thoughts on this?

You lived a sheltered childhood.

And have been kept from the reality of life as an adult.

"WB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dave said:

Quoted message said:

Real deficiencies in the immune system are relatively uncommon and when
they occur they are not "restored" as easily as taking various herbs or

vitamins.

Well, this sounds like a grandiose statement. How did you come by this
knowledge?
Is it science based? How would you explain the fact that when I was a
child, I never knew
a kid who had asthma or allergies. Today, I see high percentages of young
kids who have
these conditions. What are your thoughts on this?

You lived a sheltered childhood.

And have been kept from the reality of life as an adult.

Yes, that's about what I expected from you.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave said:

How would you explain the fact that when I was a child, I never knew
a kid who had asthma or allergies. Today, I see high percentages of young
kids who have these conditions. What are your thoughts on this?

You were raised by wolves.

Or, more likely, you actually did know such kids but either didn't
realize it or have forgotten. I knew plenty of kids who had allergies
or asthma.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

Quoted message said:

Dave said:

Quoted message said:

>
>As if ten years of post secondary school education and training isn't an
>"inconvenience".

Exactly, in Canada it is eleven years but I'm sure its the same thing.
Eleven years of
studying one thing. Doesn't that cause a very narrow view?

Quoted message said:

Actually for me it was no inconvenience, I enjoyed it quite
thoroughly. It did take a long time though.

Well, congratulations! Are you a butcher or a drug dealer?

You are replying to two different people in the same message ?

Please be more specific.

I think that in Dave's medieval mindset a dentist is a Barber and a Surgeon is
a Butcher.

Dave said:

Well, heck, gee, whiz, I/m confronted by a true genius. Since I am
desperately
trying to understand what information you wish to impart to us ignorant
beings,
and if a weakened immune system doesn't allow us to contract a disease, what
pray tell might be the correct answer? And of course tell us what you know
of
the immune system.

Hello Dave. Please explain the functions of B- and T-cells, why they
have those names, and why I am suffering from what appears to be an
IgE mediated over-stimulation of the immune system.

--
Peter Bowditch [email hidden]
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
The Green Light http://www.ratbags.com/greenlight
I'm a Bright. Are you?

Quoted message said:

Dave said:

Well, heck, gee, whiz, I/m confronted by a true genius. Since I am
desperately
trying to understand what information you wish to impart to us ignorant
beings,
and if a weakened immune system doesn't allow us to contract a disease, what
pray tell might be the correct answer? And of course tell us what you know
of
the immune system.

Hello Dave. Please explain the functions of B- and T-cells, why they
have those names, and why I am suffering from what appears to be an
IgE mediated over-stimulation of the immune system.

--
Peter Bowditch [email hidden]

Really, Peter, its simply a case of perspective. You see your Immune System
(tm) as over-flowing, Dave sees it as half empty.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave said:

"Orac" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now you expose your real ignorance of the natural ways in which the body
works. Weakness of the immune system is not the basis of disease. And

hardly

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

any disease can be effectively treated by "restoring and maintaining"

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

immune system. Ironically, such terminology has come from greedy

charlitans

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

trying to sound SCIENTIFIC in their advertising. In real life, some of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

nastiest diseases are characterized by a strong immune system overdoing

its

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

job, like a police force that has turned into a company of

stormtroupers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Multiple sclerosis, rheumatiod arthritis, systemic lupus

erythematosis...the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

list goes on and on.

Indeed. The immune system is involved in many diseases, but in most
cases it is the inappropriate activation of the immune system (as in
inflammatory diseases) or the excessive response of the immune system
to a an appropriate stimulus that is implicated, not a "weakness" of the
immune system. For instance, one hypothesis for how atherosclerosis
develops that is favored at present states that excessive lipids and LDL
cause a continuous low-level injury to the vascular lining, which
results in a chronic inflammatory reaction that ultimately results in
atherosclerotic plaque.

Real deficiencies in the immune system are relatively uncommon and when
they occur they are not "restored" as easily as taking various herbs or

vitamins.

Well, this sounds like a grandiose statement. How did you come by this
knowledge?

Four years of college, four years of medical school, four years of
graduate school, five years of residency, and three years of research
fellowship. Is that enough?

Quoted message said:

Is it science based?

Yes.

Quoted message said:

How would you explain the fact that when I was a
child, I never knew
a kid who had asthma or allergies. Today, I see high percentages of young
kids who have
these conditions. What are your thoughts on this?

My thoughts are that you're using the logical fallacy known as the hasty
generalization (also known as: fallacy of insufficient statistics,
fallacy of insufficient sample, leaping to a conclusion, hasty
induction, fallacy of the converse accident):

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/hasty-generalization.html
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#generalization
http://gncurtis.home.texas.net/hastygen.html
http://datanation.com/fallacies/hasty.htm

Bring some real data other than your perceived personal experience and
maybe we'll talk.
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave said:

"Happy Dog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

First, you must undertstand that the most
basic difference is that in the medical model, there is no cure. The

mission

Quoted message said:

of medicine is to relieve
the symptoms in order to give the patient the sense that his disease has
been cured.

Bollocks. Antibiotics, for example, cure many types of bacterial
infections. Period.

Exactly, they kill a lot of the bacteria, but they certainly don't cure the
weakness that allowed them to occur in the first place.

Many pathogenic bacteria are perfectly capable of causing infection in a
completely healthy host with an intact immune system. There is no need
to invoke some unspecified immune "weakness" to explain it.

Quoted message said:

Do any of you
pack of fools have any understanding of what the immune system is
is or why it even was invented???!!! Do you think YOUJ have one that
is functional? Why?

I'd say it's very likely that I understand the immune system better than
you do. Certainly nothing you've said thus far, which is full of sound
and fury, signifying nothing, has given me reason to think otherwise.
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

(David Wright) said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Spammin' Dave gLowlife said:

"Happy Dog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bollocks. Antibiotics, for example, cure many types of bacterial
infections. Period.

Exactly, they kill a lot of the bacteria, but they certainly don't cure the
weakness that allowed them to occur in the first place. Do any of you
pack of fools have any understanding of what the immune system is
is or why it even was invented???!!! Do you think YOUJ have one that
is functional? Why?

Oh, do tell us all about the immune system. Tell us all about
cell-mediated immunity. Tell us about other types of immunity.
Tell us about helper T-cells and NK and all those other great
things. What, you can't?

Indeed. I'm waiting for "Dave" to tell me the SPECIFIC "immune weakness"
that leads to disease and is corrected by the appropriate alternative
treatments. Is it cell-mediated immunity? If so, which cells and
molecular pathways are involved and what specifically causes the
"weakness"? How, specifically, do alternative therapies correct this
"weakness"? No handwaving, I want verifiable scientific explanations!
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

(Ilsa9) said:

Quoted message said:

Dave said:

> >
> >As if ten years of post secondary school education and training isn't an
> >"inconvenience".

Exactly, in Canada it is eleven years but I'm sure its the same thing.
Eleven years of
studying one thing. Doesn't that cause a very narrow view?

> Actually for me it was no inconvenience, I enjoyed it quite
> thoroughly. It did take a long time though.

Well, congratulations! Are you a butcher or a drug dealer?

You are replying to two different people in the same message ?

Please be more specific.

I think that in Dave's medieval mindset a dentist is a Barber and a Surgeon is
a Butcher.

Medieval type practioners of the art prefer the term
Barber/Surgeon.

Butchers only dismember animals for food.

WB

D. C. Sessions said:

In said:

Now you expose your real ignorance of the natural ways in which the body
works. Weakness of the immune system is not the basis of disease. And hardly
any disease can be effectively treated by "restoring and maintaining" the
immune system. Ironically, such terminology has come from greedy charlitans
trying to sound SCIENTIFIC in their advertising. In real life, some of the
nastiest diseases are characterized by a strong immune system overdoing its
job, like a police force that has turned into a company of stormtroupers.
Multiple sclerosis, rheumatiod arthritis, systemic lupus erythematosis...the
list goes on and on.

SARS. An otherwise mild infection which tricks the
immune system into turning on the lungs. "Boosting
the immune system" would be just a /brilliant/ plan
for that, wouldn't you think?

Reload the bong and pass it on bogart.

Sounds like a reasonable plan

WB

In said:

They are all heavily influenced by lifestyle. And they are
primarily found in older adults. The modern medicine you berate
is making people live long enough to die from the diseases of old
age.

To die of prostate cancer in his 80s, my father had to live to an
age where it is a problem. To die of heart attacks in their 90s,
my grandmothers had to survive childbirth.

One of my favorite challenges to alties (OK, Scudamore) who
wring their hands over the increases in heart disease, cancer,
etc. in recent years is to ask them to compare death rates for
those conditions now to those of their favorite period, /within/
/birth/ /cohorts/ -- i.e. 50-60 year olds.

The discussion always ends abruptly.

PS: If you compare "heart disease" deaths 100 years ago
for young adults, you'll find that they were dramatically
higher than today; I was inspired to investigate this as
a matter of family history, since my paternal grandmother
died in her 30s of a bad heart. The reason why is left
as an exercise for the reader.

--
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
| it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
| for new products or new versions of existing products." |
end

In said:

However, one must note that, in the under-40 age group, trauma is by far
the leading cause of death.

What is medicine doing wrong that has trauma increasing
so much relative to the historical norm?

--
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
| it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
| for new products or new versions of existing products." |
end

D. C. Sessions said:

In said:

However, one must note that, in the under-40 age group, trauma is by far
the leading cause of death.

What is medicine doing wrong that has trauma increasing
so much relative to the historical norm?

Wait one minute....

Trauma has always been the number one cause of death.
Let us only go back to 1861 to 1865 in America.

What was the #1 cause of death in the civil war ?

Hint: musket ball to any part of the body.
Amputation was the 'treatment' of choice.

D.C. you are on to something here, commonly called the truth.

WB

Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bollocks. Antibiotics, for example, cure many types of bacterial
infections. Period.

Exactly, they kill a lot of the bacteria, but they certainly don't cure

the

Quoted message said:

weakness that allowed them to occur in the first place

This non-answer just begs the question of what a "disease" is. You are
trying to shoehorn almost any disease into a group with a singular cause.
That's state of the art 19th century, hell, 10th century, thinking. Unless
you're claiming that people who do whatever you fantasize they might do to
give them a properly functioning immune system will never succumb to *any*
bacterial infection (and that claim would be insane) then antibiotics
certainly do "cure" certain infections in every sense of the definition.

Quoted message said:

Do any of you
pack of fools have any understanding of what the immune system is
is or why it even was invented???!!!

"Invented"? By who? Many people know why it evolved. And you've well
proved that you don't.

Quoted message said:

Do you think YOUJ have one that
is functional? Why?

I'm alive.

le 3ieme moo

In said:

Is it science based? How would you explain the fact that when I was a
child, I never knew
a kid who had asthma or allergies. Today, I see high percentages of young
kids who have
these conditions. What are your thoughts on this?

In the young, ignorance is quite excusable.
Or are you claiming that asthma is something
new in the world?

--
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
| it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
| for new products or new versions of existing products." |
end

In said:

It appears that in the alties dictionary "conventional" and
"all natural" are *code words* for therapies, medicines, treatments,
etc... that have been rejected by modern medicine because they
don't work in the EOM world.

Morphine is "all natural" as is Heroin...

Technically, heroin is diacetly morphine, which doesn't
occur in nature.

On the other hand, a long list of the "natural treatments"
advertised as "alternative medicine" are purely synthetic,
with their most "natural" antecedants being air, water,
and petroleum.

--
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
| it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
| for new products or new versions of existing products." |
end

WB said:

D. C. Sessions said:

What is medicine doing wrong that has trauma increasing
so much relative to the historical norm?

Quoted message said:

Wait one minute....

Trauma has always been the number one cause of death.
Let us only go back to 1861 to 1865 in America.

What was the #1 cause of death in the civil war ?

Hint: musket ball to any part of the body.
Amputation was the 'treatment' of choice.

Wrong ... that was INFECTION, not trauma.

WWII was the first war where your chances of dying in battle were
higher than your chances of dying of disease or wound infections.

Tsu

--
To doubt everything or to believe everything
are two equally convenient solutions; both
dispense with the necessity of reflection.
- Jules Henri Poincaré

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tsu Dho Nimh said:

Orac said:

Many pathogenic bacteria are perfectly capable of causing infection in a
completely healthy host with an intact immune system. There is no need
to invoke some unspecified immune "weakness" to explain it.

If they couldn't do it, they wouldn't be pathogens, would they?

You know, I was waiting for a response from "Dave" before pulling out
that very same line....
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"