Quackbusters

In article <[email hidden]>,

Mark Probert said:

HCN said:

"Angela" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I read an article about people who hang out on various groups and
pounce on any reasonable discussion that might lead someone (lucky
person!) to escape the 'system'. I read that these people are paid.
How else can they devote so much time and energy to their cause? ...

snip..

Actually, it is a form of entertainment -- and sometimes educational.
Though to keep it easier I have killfiled some of the more prolific folks
(like Jan, Debbie, rb, etc), since it is more interesting to read the
responses to their posts.

As for payment, well I actually wrote a check TO the Quachwatch, because I
support its goals to educate folks about health fraud. I found them when I
was researching what turned out to be very bad advice I got from some
clueless relative about my kids (always use caution when getting advice
about children's medical conditions when the advisor is a single childless
person who majored in Romance Languages who won't even take their own
naturapath's suggestion to get more exercise!).

By the way you have never answered how you "homeopathically" treat
emergencies like broken bones or massive bleeding.

Angela has never answered any questions posed to her.

Which makes be begin to think she was just trolling.
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In said:

Jan, Angela has no posting history. You know what that means.

In Angela's case, it means:
* She's hiding from EOM
* She's uncorrupted by "debunkers"
* ...

Of course, if she'd had _not_ agreed with
Jan, it would be proof of her perfidy etc.

--
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
| it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
| for new products or new versions of existing products." |
end

"Angela" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I read an article about

No you didn't. You're a troll. The proof will be your lack of response to
your post.
moo

--

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doctors definitely have an important role to play in our society. They
remove bullets,
repair knife wounds, aid broken bones, etc. The conflict between the
"medical model"
and the "natural" way, comes when disease occurs. I am quite amazed that
with all the
claimed intellect and insightfulness of the members here, that it has

never

Quoted message said:

occured to
you to wonder what "natural" means. Natural ways have existed since the
beginning of
time while the medical model is little more than 100 years old. That's not
much history in
our universe.

So what makes you thing that internal medicine is unnatural? The "medical
model" is based on an intimate fundamental knowledge and understanding of
physiology, the real "nature" of the human body. Your "natural ways" are
natural only in the sense that it is natural to assign myth and superstition
to things we don't understand.

Quoted message said:

In our society (American) we think we know it all. We also don't like to
have to inconvenience
ourseves. So if we go to our doctor we can simply give ourselves over to

him

Quoted message said:

and he will
almost always prescribe some medication and we can mindlessly take it

secure

Quoted message said:

in the knowledge
that he cares about us. The other side requires us to take responsibilty

for

Quoted message said:

ourselves and our
loved ones. When I hear stories liked this person who took health advice
from a clueless
relative and it didn't work out!!! Well, get a life.

Anybody who abdicates responsibility for his own health and gives himself
over to any practitioner, whether physician or naturopath or chiropractor or
shaman, and "mindlessly" fails his role in the recovery process can expect a
poor result. Don't blame the doctor. This attitude is NOT "the other side"
of the alternative vs. science controversy.

Quoted message said:

Let me offer you some thoughts for your consideration. If you want to be

an

Quoted message said:

informed person,
you should do some personal research. People who understand the natural

way

Quoted message said:

to health, have
had to learn about it all by themselves. What that means is, we have had

to

Quoted message said:

inconvenience ourselves and look at it from a positive point of view, not
negative. First, you must undertstand that the most
basic difference is that in the medical model, there is no cure. The

mission

Quoted message said:

of medicine is to relieve
the symptoms in order to give the patient the sense that his disease has
been cured. The trouble is
that a new disease appears and that disease gets a new medicine designed

to

Quoted message said:

relieve the symptoms
of that disease, and so on and so on.

If you want to be an informed person, you should learn something about how
your body is put together and how it works. Then you might realize that your
thesis that the "medical model" is only concerned with suppressing symptoms
doesn't hold water.

Quoted message said:

In the natural way, a cure becomes possible. The understanding that must

be

Quoted message said:

gained, is that this
cure is effected by our own immune system. The purpose of natural ways is

to

Quoted message said:

restore and maintain
our own immune system so our own bodies can fight our diseases and
conditions. If anybody tells
you that their SBGA or NONI Juice, or ginseng will cure your childs ADHD,
you are now well enough informed to know that they are assuming that you
understand this fundamental bit of knowledge, not trying to trick you. I
happen to fully understand that all of these things will in all
probability build that childs body up enough to "cure" that ADHD. And it
won't come back.
Once you begin to actually understand, you will see how things have come
down to the drug companies fighting for their financial health, which is a
separate issue from your health.

Now you expose your real ignorance of the natural ways in which the body
works. Weakness of the immune system is not the basis of disease. And hardly
any disease can be effectively treated by "restoring and maintaining" the
immune system. Ironically, such terminology has come from greedy charlitans
trying to sound SCIENTIFIC in their advertising. In real life, some of the
nastiest diseases are characterized by a strong immune system overdoing its
job, like a police force that has turned into a company of stormtroupers.
Multiple sclerosis, rheumatiod arthritis, systemic lupus erythematosis...the
list goes on and on.

Learn something about the immune system; it's more fascinating than sales
hype for ginseng and NONI juice.

Quoted message said:

There is much written on cancer and natural ways to solve it. I have seen
numerous cancer patients
who take CHEMO, radiation and other toxic therapies use natural herbs such
as medicinal ginseng
to successfully protect them from the nasty side effects of this treament.
This is a very good example
of medical science and nature working together. None of these patients

have

Quoted message said:

not had any reoccurrence. So, is this a cure? Did the CHEMO cure? Did the
ginseng cure? You choose.

The chemo cured. And pakalolo might have been a better choice of herb to
treat the side effects.

--Rich

--

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

--

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doctors definitely have an important role to play in our society. They
remove bullets,
repair knife wounds, aid broken bones, etc. The conflict between the
"medical model"
and the "natural" way, comes when disease occurs. I am quite amazed that
with all the
claimed intellect and insightfulness of the members here, that it has

never

Quoted message said:

occured to
you to wonder what "natural" means. Natural ways have existed since the
beginning of
time while the medical model is little more than 100 years old. That's

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

much history in
our universe.

So what makes you thing that internal medicine is unnatural? The "medical
model" is based on an intimate fundamental knowledge and understanding of
physiology, the real "nature" of the human body. Your "natural ways" are
natural only in the sense that it is natural to assign myth and

superstition

Quoted message said:

to things we don't understand.

Quoted message said:

In our society (American) we think we know it all. We also don't like to
have to inconvenience
ourseves. So if we go to our doctor we can simply give ourselves over to

him

Quoted message said:

and he will
almost always prescribe some medication and we can mindlessly take it

secure

Quoted message said:

in the knowledge
that he cares about us. The other side requires us to take responsibilty

for

Quoted message said:

ourselves and our
loved ones. When I hear stories liked this person who took health advice
from a clueless
relative and it didn't work out!!! Well, get a life.

Anybody who abdicates responsibility for his own health and gives himself
over to any practitioner, whether physician or naturopath or chiropractor

or

Quoted message said:

shaman, and "mindlessly" fails his role in the recovery process can expect

a

Quoted message said:

poor result. Don't blame the doctor. This attitude is NOT "the other side"
of the alternative vs. science controversy.

Quoted message said:

Let me offer you some thoughts for your consideration. If you want to be

an

Quoted message said:

informed person,
you should do some personal research. People who understand the natural

way

Quoted message said:

to health, have
had to learn about it all by themselves. What that means is, we have had

to

Quoted message said:

inconvenience ourselves and look at it from a positive point of view,

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

negative. First, you must undertstand that the most
basic difference is that in the medical model, there is no cure. The

mission

Quoted message said:

of medicine is to relieve
the symptoms in order to give the patient the sense that his disease has
been cured. The trouble is
that a new disease appears and that disease gets a new medicine designed

to

Quoted message said:

relieve the symptoms
of that disease, and so on and so on.

If you want to be an informed person, you should learn something about how
your body is put together and how it works. Then you might realize that

your

Quoted message said:

thesis that the "medical model" is only concerned with suppressing

symptoms

Quoted message said:

doesn't hold water.

Quoted message said:

In the natural way, a cure becomes possible. The understanding that must

be

Quoted message said:

gained, is that this
cure is effected by our own immune system. The purpose of natural ways

is

Quoted message said:

to

Quoted message said:

restore and maintain
our own immune system so our own bodies can fight our diseases and
conditions. If anybody tells
you that their SBGA or NONI Juice, or ginseng will cure your childs

ADHD,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you are now well enough informed to know that they are assuming that you
understand this fundamental bit of knowledge, not trying to trick you. I
happen to fully understand that all of these things will in all
probability build that childs body up enough to "cure" that ADHD. And it
won't come back.
Once you begin to actually understand, you will see how things have come
down to the drug companies fighting for their financial health, which is

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

separate issue from your health.

Now you expose your real ignorance of the natural ways in which the body
works. Weakness of the immune system is not the basis of disease. And

hardly

Quoted message said:

any disease can be effectively treated by "restoring and maintaining" the
immune system. Ironically, such terminology has come from greedy

charlitans

Quoted message said:

trying to sound SCIENTIFIC in their advertising. In real life, some of the
nastiest diseases are characterized by a strong immune system overdoing

its

Quoted message said:

job, like a police force that has turned into a company of stormtroupers.
Multiple sclerosis, rheumatiod arthritis, systemic lupus

erythematosis...the

Quoted message said:

list goes on and on.

Learn something about the immune system; it's more fascinating than sales
hype for ginseng and NONI juice.

Quoted message said:

There is much written on cancer and natural ways to solve it. I have

seen

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

numerous cancer patients
who take CHEMO, radiation and other toxic therapies use natural herbs

such

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

as medicinal ginseng
to successfully protect them from the nasty side effects of this

treament.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is a very good example
of medical science and nature working together. None of these patients

have

Quoted message said:

not had any reoccurrence. So, is this a cure? Did the CHEMO cure? Did

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ginseng cure? You choose.

The chemo cured. And pakalolo might have been a better choice of herb to
treat the side effects.

--Rich

Unfortunately, pakalolo is very expensive and is generally available only
through one of the biggest and nastiest MLM networks out there.

;o) Rich

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

People who understand the natural way
to health, have
had to learn about it all by themselves. What that means is, we have had

to

Quoted message said:

inconvenience ourselves

As if ten years of post secondary school education and training isn't an
"inconvenience".

and look at it from a positive point of view, not

Quoted message said:

negative. First, you must undertstand that the most
basic difference is that in the medical model, there is no cure. The

mission

Quoted message said:

of medicine is to relieve
the symptoms in order to give the patient the sense that his disease has
been cured.

Bollocks. Antibiotics, for example, cure many types of bacterial
infections. Period.

Like most ill-informed pushers of pseudoscience, you paint a picture of a
narcissist who takes his own viewpoint and personal experience as gospel.
Most of your post is a predictable put-down of evidence-based medicine. You
use a few scientific terms but in a way that is acceptable only by people
with a knowledge of sceince that stops in the mid 19th century. As another
poster pointed out, your drivel about the immune system alone shows that you
don't understand some fundamental basics of human physiology.
moo

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

--

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doctors definitely have an important role to play in our society. They
remove bullets,
repair knife wounds, aid broken bones, etc. The conflict between the
"medical model"
and the "natural" way, comes when disease occurs. I am quite amazed that
with all the
claimed intellect and insightfulness of the members here, that it has

never

Quoted message said:

occured to
you to wonder what "natural" means. Natural ways have existed since the
beginning of
time while the medical model is little more than 100 years old. That's

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

much history in
our universe.

So what makes you thing that internal medicine is unnatural? The "medical
model" is based on an intimate fundamental knowledge and understanding of
physiology, the real "nature" of the human body. Your "natural ways" are
natural only in the sense that it is natural to assign myth and

superstition

Quoted message said:

to things we don't understand.

Quoted message said:

In our society (American) we think we know it all. We also don't like to
have to inconvenience
ourseves. So if we go to our doctor we can simply give ourselves over to

him

Quoted message said:

and he will
almost always prescribe some medication and we can mindlessly take it

secure

Quoted message said:

in the knowledge
that he cares about us. The other side requires us to take responsibilty

for

Quoted message said:

ourselves and our
loved ones. When I hear stories liked this person who took health advice
from a clueless
relative and it didn't work out!!! Well, get a life.

Anybody who abdicates responsibility for his own health and gives himself
over to any practitioner, whether physician or naturopath or chiropractor

or

Quoted message said:

shaman, and "mindlessly" fails his role in the recovery process can expect

a

Quoted message said:

poor result. Don't blame the doctor. This attitude is NOT "the other side"
of the alternative vs. science controversy.

Quoted message said:

Let me offer you some thoughts for your consideration. If you want to be

an

Quoted message said:

informed person,
you should do some personal research. People who understand the natural

way

Quoted message said:

to health, have
had to learn about it all by themselves. What that means is, we have had

to

Quoted message said:

inconvenience ourselves and look at it from a positive point of view,

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

negative. First, you must undertstand that the most
basic difference is that in the medical model, there is no cure. The

mission

Quoted message said:

of medicine is to relieve
the symptoms in order to give the patient the sense that his disease has
been cured. The trouble is
that a new disease appears and that disease gets a new medicine designed

to

Quoted message said:

relieve the symptoms
of that disease, and so on and so on.

If you want to be an informed person, you should learn something about how
your body is put together and how it works. Then you might realize that

your

Quoted message said:

thesis that the "medical model" is only concerned with suppressing

symptoms

Quoted message said:

doesn't hold water.

Quoted message said:

In the natural way, a cure becomes possible. The understanding that must

be

Quoted message said:

gained, is that this
cure is effected by our own immune system. The purpose of natural ways

is

Quoted message said:

to

Quoted message said:

restore and maintain
our own immune system so our own bodies can fight our diseases and
conditions. If anybody tells
you that their SBGA or NONI Juice, or ginseng will cure your childs

ADHD,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you are now well enough informed to know that they are assuming that you
understand this fundamental bit of knowledge, not trying to trick you. I
happen to fully understand that all of these things will in all
probability build that childs body up enough to "cure" that ADHD. And it
won't come back.
Once you begin to actually understand, you will see how things have come
down to the drug companies fighting for their financial health, which is

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

separate issue from your health.

Now you expose your real ignorance of the natural ways in which the body
works. Weakness of the immune system is not the basis of disease. And

hardly

Quoted message said:

any disease can be effectively treated by "restoring and maintaining" the
immune system. Ironically, such terminology has come from greedy

charlitans

Quoted message said:

trying to sound SCIENTIFIC in their advertising. In real life, some of the
nastiest diseases are characterized by a strong immune system overdoing

its

Quoted message said:

job, like a police force that has turned into a company of stormtroupers.
Multiple sclerosis, rheumatiod arthritis, systemic lupus

erythematosis...the

Quoted message said:

list goes on and on.

Learn something about the immune system; it's more fascinating than sales
hype for ginseng and NONI juice.

Well, heck, gee, whiz, I/m confronted by a true genius. Since I am
desperately
trying to understand what information you wish to impart to us ignorant
beings,
and if a weakened immune system doesn't allow us to contract a disease, what
pray tell might be the correct answer? And of course tell us what you know
of
the immune system.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

There is much written on cancer and natural ways to solve it. I have

seen

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

numerous cancer patients
who take CHEMO, radiation and other toxic therapies use natural herbs

such

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

as medicinal ginseng
to successfully protect them from the nasty side effects of this

treament.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is a very good example
of medical science and nature working together. None of these patients

have

Quoted message said:

not had any reoccurrence. So, is this a cure? Did the CHEMO cure? Did

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ginseng cure? You choose.

The chemo cured. And pakalolo might have been a better choice of herb to
treat the side effects.

--Rich

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

--

"Rich Shewmaker" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

--

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doctors definitely have an important role to play in our society. They
remove bullets,
repair knife wounds, aid broken bones, etc. The conflict between the
"medical model"
and the "natural" way, comes when disease occurs. I am quite amazed

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with all the
claimed intellect and insightfulness of the members here, that it has

never

Quoted message said:

occured to
you to wonder what "natural" means. Natural ways have existed since

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

beginning of
time while the medical model is little more than 100 years old. That's

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

much history in
our universe.

So what makes you thing that internal medicine is unnatural? The

"medical

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

model" is based on an intimate fundamental knowledge and understanding

of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

physiology, the real "nature" of the human body. Your "natural ways" are
natural only in the sense that it is natural to assign myth and

superstition

Quoted message said:

to things we don't understand.

Quoted message said:

In our society (American) we think we know it all. We also don't like

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

have to inconvenience
ourseves. So if we go to our doctor we can simply give ourselves over

to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

him

Quoted message said:

and he will
almost always prescribe some medication and we can mindlessly take it

secure

Quoted message said:

in the knowledge
that he cares about us. The other side requires us to take

responsibilty

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

for

Quoted message said:

ourselves and our
loved ones. When I hear stories liked this person who took health

advice

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

from a clueless
relative and it didn't work out!!! Well, get a life.

Anybody who abdicates responsibility for his own health and gives

himself

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

over to any practitioner, whether physician or naturopath or

chiropractor

Quoted message said:

or

Quoted message said:

shaman, and "mindlessly" fails his role in the recovery process can

expect

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

poor result. Don't blame the doctor. This attitude is NOT "the other

side"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of the alternative vs. science controversy.

Quoted message said:

Let me offer you some thoughts for your consideration. If you want to

be

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

an

Quoted message said:

informed person,
you should do some personal research. People who understand the

natural

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

way

Quoted message said:

to health, have
had to learn about it all by themselves. What that means is, we have

had

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to

Quoted message said:

inconvenience ourselves and look at it from a positive point of view,

not

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

negative. First, you must undertstand that the most
basic difference is that in the medical model, there is no cure. The

mission

Quoted message said:

of medicine is to relieve
the symptoms in order to give the patient the sense that his disease

has

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

been cured. The trouble is
that a new disease appears and that disease gets a new medicine

designed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to

Quoted message said:

relieve the symptoms
of that disease, and so on and so on.

If you want to be an informed person, you should learn something about

how

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

your body is put together and how it works. Then you might realize that

your

Quoted message said:

thesis that the "medical model" is only concerned with suppressing

symptoms

Quoted message said:

doesn't hold water.

Quoted message said:

In the natural way, a cure becomes possible. The understanding that

must

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be

Quoted message said:

gained, is that this
cure is effected by our own immune system. The purpose of natural ways

is

Quoted message said:

to

Quoted message said:

restore and maintain
our own immune system so our own bodies can fight our diseases and
conditions. If anybody tells
you that their SBGA or NONI Juice, or ginseng will cure your childs

ADHD,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you are now well enough informed to know that they are assuming that

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

understand this fundamental bit of knowledge, not trying to trick you.

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

happen to fully understand that all of these things will in all
probability build that childs body up enough to "cure" that ADHD. And

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

won't come back.
Once you begin to actually understand, you will see how things have

come

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

down to the drug companies fighting for their financial health, which

is

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

separate issue from your health.

Now you expose your real ignorance of the natural ways in which the body
works. Weakness of the immune system is not the basis of disease. And

hardly

Quoted message said:

any disease can be effectively treated by "restoring and maintaining"

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

immune system. Ironically, such terminology has come from greedy

charlitans

Quoted message said:

trying to sound SCIENTIFIC in their advertising. In real life, some of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

nastiest diseases are characterized by a strong immune system overdoing

its

Quoted message said:

job, like a police force that has turned into a company of

stormtroupers.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Multiple sclerosis, rheumatiod arthritis, systemic lupus

erythematosis...the

Quoted message said:

list goes on and on.

Learn something about the immune system; it's more fascinating than

sales

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hype for ginseng and NONI juice.

Quoted message said:

There is much written on cancer and natural ways to solve it. I have

seen

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

numerous cancer patients
who take CHEMO, radiation and other toxic therapies use natural herbs

such

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

as medicinal ginseng
to successfully protect them from the nasty side effects of this

treament.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is a very good example
of medical science and nature working together. None of these patients

have

Quoted message said:

not had any reoccurrence. So, is this a cure? Did the CHEMO cure? Did

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ginseng cure? You choose.

The chemo cured. And pakalolo might have been a better choice of herb to
treat the side effects.

--Rich

Unfortunately, pakalolo is very expensive and is generally available only
through one of the biggest and nastiest MLM networks out there.

;o) Rich

Apparently you guys get easily lost. The only thing you guys seem to
understand better
than the human immune system is the operation of MLM's. If you could
bottle ignorance
you boys could become millionaires!!

Quoted message said:

"Happy Dog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

People who understand the natural way
to health, have
had to learn about it all by themselves. What that means is, we have had

to

Quoted message said:

inconvenience ourselves

As if ten years of post secondary school education and training isn't an
"inconvenience".

and look at it from a positive point of view, not

Quoted message said:

negative. First, you must undertstand that the most
basic difference is that in the medical model, there is no cure. The

mission

Quoted message said:

of medicine is to relieve
the symptoms in order to give the patient the sense that his disease has
been cured.

Bollocks. Antibiotics, for example, cure many types of bacterial
infections. Period.

Exactly, they kill a lot of the bacteria, but they certainly don't cure the
weakness that allowed them to occur in the first place. Do any of you
pack of fools have any understanding of what the immune system is
is or why it even was invented???!!! Do you think YOUJ have one that
is functional? Why?

Quoted message said:

Like most ill-informed pushers of pseudoscience, you paint a picture of a
narcissist who takes his own viewpoint and personal experience as gospel.
Most of your post is a predictable put-down of evidence-based medicine.

You

Quoted message said:

use a few scientific terms but in a way that is acceptable only by people
with a knowledge of sceince that stops in the mid 19th century. As

another

Quoted message said:

poster pointed out, your drivel about the immune system alone shows that

you

Quoted message said:

don't understand some fundamental basics of human physiology.
moo

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tsu Dho Nimh said:

(David Wright) said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

probable troll Angela said:

A(The?) leading cause of death today is iatrogenic illness. Is this a
plan?

It's not even a fact; the leading cause of death today in the US is
heart disease, then cancer, then stroke.

They are all heavily influenced by lifestyle. And they are
primarily found in older adults. The modern medicine you berate
is making people live long enough to die from the diseases of old
age.

To die of prostate cancer in his 80s, my father had to live to an
age where it is a problem.

Indeed. Prostate cancer is quite rare in men under 40 and fairly
uncommon in men under 60. However, autopsy studies of men who died of
other causes in their 80's show that perhaps half of them have evidence
of cancer in their prostate glands. This implies that if a man lives
long enough he will have a very high chance of developing prostate
cancer. Fortunately, prostate cancer is, in most cases, a pretty
slow-growing and indolent disease, particularly when diagnosed in men
over 70; many men with prostate cancer end up dying of something else.

Quoted message said:

To die of heart attacks in their 90s,
my grandmothers had to survive childbirth.

Indeed. For people to die of diseases associated with old age, such as
heart disease and cancer, people must live long enough to get them.
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 14:12:57 -0400, "Happy Dog" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

People who understand the natural way
to health, have
had to learn about it all by themselves. What that means is, we have had

to

Quoted message said:

inconvenience ourselves

As if ten years of post secondary school education and training isn't an
"inconvenience".

Actually for me it was no inconvenience, I enjoyed it quite
thoroughly. It did take a long time though.

Quoted message said:

and look at it from a positive point of view, not

Quoted message said:

negative. First, you must undertstand that the most
basic difference is that in the medical model, there is no cure. The

mission

Quoted message said:

of medicine is to relieve
the symptoms in order to give the patient the sense that his disease has
been cured.

Bollocks. Antibiotics, for example, cure many types of bacterial
infections. Period.

Like most ill-informed pushers of pseudoscience, you paint a picture of a
narcissist who takes his own viewpoint and personal experience as gospel.
Most of your post is a predictable put-down of evidence-based medicine. You
use a few scientific terms but in a way that is acceptable only by people
with a knowledge of science that stops in the mid 19th century. As another
poster pointed out, your drivel about the immune system alone shows that you
don't understand some fundamental basics of human physiology.
moo

Well said.
Many of the alties are stuck in the 14th century and earlier.

Dave said:

Quoted message said:

Bollocks. Antibiotics, for example, cure many types of bacterial
infections. Period.

Exactly, they kill a lot of the bacteria, but they certainly don't cure the
weakness that allowed them to occur in the first place.

What 'weakness'?

Quoted message said:

Do any of you pack of fools have any understanding of what
the immune system is is or why it even was invented???!!!

Invented? Who holds the patents? And can I license its use?

Your use of the term "the immune system" as if it were a single
entity is enough to indicate that you know nothing about it.

Tsu

--
To doubt everything or to believe everything
are two equally convenient solutions; both
dispense with the necessity of reflection.
- Jules Henri Poincaré

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave said:

"tools" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"HCN" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Angela" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> I read an article about people who hang out on various groups and
> pounce on any reasonable discussion that might lead someone (lucky
> person!) to escape the 'system'. I read that these people are paid.
> How else can they devote so much time and energy to their cause? ...
snip..

Actually, it is a form of entertainment -- and sometimes educational.
Though to keep it easier I have killfiled some of the more prolific

folks

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(like Jan, Debbie, rb, etc), since it is more interesting to read the
responses to their posts.

As for payment, well I actually wrote a check TO the Quachwatch, because

I

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

support its goals to educate folks about health fraud. I found them

when

Quoted message said:

I

Quoted message said:

was researching what turned out to be very bad advice I got from some
clueless relative about my kids (always use caution when getting advice
about children's medical conditions when the advisor is a single

childless

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

person who majored in Romance Languages who won't even take their own
naturapath's suggestion to get more exercise!).

By the way you have never answered how you "homeopathically" treat
emergencies like broken bones or massive bleeding.

Doctors definitely have an important role to play in our society.
They remove bullets, repair knife wounds, aid broken bones, etc. The
conflict between the "medical model" and the "natural" way, comes
when disease occurs. I am quite amazed that with all the claimed
intellect and insightfulness of the members here, that it has never
occured to you to wonder what "natural" means. Natural ways have
existed since the beginning of time while the medical model is little
more than 100 years old. That's not much history in our universe.

Did it ever occur to you that many drugs doctors use these days are
"natural." They are natural products. Digoxin, penicillin, Amphotericin
B, neomycin, Taxol, etc., etc., etc. are all example of natural products
used to treat disease.

So why do alties make this artificial distinction between the kinds of
treatments they use and many of the kinds of treatments "conventional"
doctors use?

Quoted message said:

In our society (American) we think we know it all. We also don't like
to have to inconvenience ourseves. So if we go to our doctor we can
simply give ourselves over to him and he will almost always prescribe
some medication and we can mindlessly take it secure in the knowledge
that he cares about us. The other side requires us to take
responsibilty for ourselves and our loved ones. When I hear stories
liked this person who took health advice from a clueless relative and
it didn't work out!!! Well, get a life.

Would you say the same thing to someone who took medical advice from a
clueless alternative medicine practitioner?

Quoted message said:

Let me offer you some thoughts for your consideration. If you want to
be an informed person, you should do some personal research. People
who understand the natural way to health, have had to learn about it
all by themselves. What that means is, we have had to inconvenience
ourselves and look at it from a positive point of view, not negative.

So? Conventional doctors are very much in favor of patients educating
themselves.

Quoted message said:

First, you must undertstand that the most basic difference is that in
the medical model, there is no cure. The mission of medicine is to
relieve the symptoms in order to give the patient the sense that his
disease has been cured.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. That is such an ignorant statment.

In the medical model, many diseases can be cured. A small sampling
includes appendicitis, pneumonia, cholecystitis, certain leukemias and
lymphomas, early stage breast and colon cancer, etc., etc., etc.

Other diseases are not yet curable, but can be treated. These include
diseases such as diabetes, hypertension, etc.

Quoted message said:

The trouble is that a new disease appears and
that disease gets a new medicine designed to relieve the symptoms of
that disease, and so on and so on.

Quoted message said:

In the natural way, a cure becomes possible. The understanding that
must be gained, is that this cure is effected by our own immune
system. The purpose of natural ways is to restore and maintain our
own immune system so our own bodies can fight our diseases and
conditions.

What about diseases that have little or nothing to do with the immune
system? Or are you claiming that all diseases are immune diseases? If
so, then prove it.

Quoted message said:

If anybody tells you that their SBGA or NONI Juice, or
ginseng will cure your childs ADHD, you are now well enough informed
to know that they are assuming that you understand this fundamental
bit of knowledge, not trying to trick you.

Or you can assume that they are victims of wishful thinking.

Quoted message said:

I happen to fully
understand that all of these things will in all probability build
that childs body up enough to "cure" that ADHD.

Are you claiming that ADHD is an immune disease?

Quoted message said:

And it won't come
back. Once you begin to actually understand, you will see how things
have come down to the drug companies fighting for their financial
health, which is a separate issue from your health.

You mean like all those alternative medicine hucksters selling their
various "cures"?

Quoted message said:

There is much written on cancer and natural ways to solve it. I have
seen numerous cancer patients who take CHEMO, radiation and other
toxic therapies use natural herbs such as medicinal ginseng to
successfully protect them from the nasty side effects of this
treament. This is a very good example of medical science and nature
working together

No oncologist that I know of is opposed to using such things to help
with the side effects of chemotherapy.

Quoted message said:

None of these patients have not had any
reoccurrence. So, is this a cure? Did the CHEMO cure? Did the ginseng
cure? You choose.

Logical fallacy used: hasty generalization (a.k.a., inadequate sample)

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/hasty-generalization.html
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html#generalization
http://gncurtis.home.texas.net/hastygen.html
http://datanation.com/fallacies/hasty.htm
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

Dave said:

Quoted message said:

Unfortunately, pakalolo is very expensive and is generally available only
through one of the biggest and nastiest MLM networks out there.

;o) Rich

Apparently you guys get easily lost. The only thing you guys seem to
understand better
than the human immune system is the operation of MLM's. If you could
bottle ignorance
you boys could become millionaires!!

Can we start with distillation of your ignorance first ?

"WB" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On Sun, 3 Aug 2003 14:12:57 -0400, "Happy Dog" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

People who understand the natural way
to health, have
had to learn about it all by themselves. What that means is, we have

had

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to

Quoted message said:

inconvenience ourselves

As if ten years of post secondary school education and training isn't an
"inconvenience".

Exactly, in Canada it is eleven years but I'm sure its the same thing.
Eleven years of
studying one thing. Doesn't that cause a very narrow view?

Quoted message said:

Actually for me it was no inconvenience, I enjoyed it quite
thoroughly. It did take a long time though.

Well, congratulations! Are you a butcher or a drug dealer?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and look at it from a positive point of view, not

Quoted message said:

negative. First, you must undertstand that the most
basic difference is that in the medical model, there is no cure. The

mission

Quoted message said:

of medicine is to relieve
the symptoms in order to give the patient the sense that his disease

has

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

been cured.

Bollocks. Antibiotics, for example, cure many types of bacterial
infections. Period.

Like most ill-informed pushers of pseudoscience, you paint a picture of a
narcissist who takes his own viewpoint and personal experience as gospel.
Most of your post is a predictable put-down of evidence-based medicine.

You

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

use a few scientific terms but in a way that is acceptable only by people
with a knowledge of science that stops in the mid 19th century. As

another

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

poster pointed out, your drivel about the immune system alone shows that

you

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

don't understand some fundamental basics of human physiology.
moo

Well said.
Many of the alties are stuck in the 14th century and earlier.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Rich Shewmaker said:

"Dave" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Doctors definitely have an important role to play in our society. They
remove bullets,
repair knife wounds, aid broken bones, etc. The conflict between the
"medical model"
and the "natural" way, comes when disease occurs. I am quite amazed that
with all the
claimed intellect and insightfulness of the members here, that it has

never

Quoted message said:

occured to
you to wonder what "natural" means. Natural ways have existed since the
beginning of
time while the medical model is little more than 100 years old. That's not
much history in
our universe.

So what makes you thing that internal medicine is unnatural? The "medical
model" is based on an intimate fundamental knowledge and understanding of
physiology, the real "nature" of the human body. Your "natural ways" are
natural only in the sense that it is natural to assign myth and superstition
to things we don't understand.

Precisely. Medical science and science in general are both a means by
which we try to understand nature. Nothing more, nothing less. The
difference between science and the "natural" ways "Dave" is pushing is
that science is a systematic attempt to understand nature using
evidence, logic, and experimentation, based on the premise that there
are natural laws that can be understood and that these natural laws,
once understood, allow us to predict the behavior of nature when we do
something. Newtons Laws of Motion are an example. Einstein's Theory of
Relativity is another.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In the natural way, a cure becomes possible. The understanding that must

be

Quoted message said:

gained, is that this
cure is effected by our own immune system. The purpose of natural ways is

to

Quoted message said:

restore and maintain
our own immune system so our own bodies can fight our diseases and
conditions. If anybody tells
you that their SBGA or NONI Juice, or ginseng will cure your childs ADHD,
you are now well enough informed to know that they are assuming that you
understand this fundamental bit of knowledge, not trying to trick you. I
happen to fully understand that all of these things will in all
probability build that childs body up enough to "cure" that ADHD. And it
won't come back.
Once you begin to actually understand, you will see how things have come
down to the drug companies fighting for their financial health, which is a
separate issue from your health.

Now you expose your real ignorance of the natural ways in which the body
works. Weakness of the immune system is not the basis of disease. And hardly
any disease can be effectively treated by "restoring and maintaining" the
immune system. Ironically, such terminology has come from greedy charlitans
trying to sound SCIENTIFIC in their advertising. In real life, some of the
nastiest diseases are characterized by a strong immune system overdoing its
job, like a police force that has turned into a company of stormtroupers.
Multiple sclerosis, rheumatiod arthritis, systemic lupus erythematosis...the
list goes on and on.

Indeed. The immune system is involved in many diseases, but in most
cases it is the inappropriate activation of the immune system (as in
inflammatory diseases) or the excessive response of the immune system
to a an appropriate stimulus that is implicated, not a "weakness" of the
immune system. For instance, one hypothesis for how atherosclerosis
develops that is favored at present states that excessive lipids and LDL
cause a continuous low-level injury to the vascular lining, which
results in a chronic inflammatory reaction that ultimately results in
atherosclerotic plaque.

Real deficiencies in the immune system are relatively uncommon and when
they occur they are not "restored" as easily as taking various herbs or
vitamins.

[Snip]
--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you
| inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

Spammin' Dave gLowlife said:

Doctors definitely have an important role to play in our
society. They remove bullets, repair knife wounds, aid broken bones,
etc.

Dangerous life you lead. Spammers must be receiving vigilante justice
these days.

Quoted message said:

The conflict between the "medical model" and the "natural" way, comes
when disease occurs. I am quite amazed that with all the claimed
intellect and insightfulness of the members here, that it has never
occured to you to wonder what "natural" means. Natural ways have
existed since the beginning of time while the medical model is little
more than 100 years old. That's not much history in our universe.

Yeah, and those "natural" ways allowed us so many opportunities to die
of all sorts of diseases far earlier than the dreaded "medical model"
does today.

Quoted message said:

In our society (American) we think we know it all.

Only spammers think they know it all.

Quoted message said:

We also don't like to have to inconvenience ourseves. So if we go to
our doctor we can simply give ourselves over to him and he will
almost always prescribe some medication and we can mindlessly take it
secure in the knowledge that he cares about us. The other side
requires us to take responsibilty for ourselves and our loved ones.
When I hear stories liked this person who took health advice from a
clueless relative and it didn't work out!!! Well, get a life.

Nice false dichotomy there, as if people who go to an MD can't take
responsibility for understanding their condition and what is being
done to treat it. Is your problem that *you* can't understand what
your MD is saying, and you're just trying to spread the guilt around?

Quoted message said:

Let me offer you some thoughts for your consideration. If you want to
be an informed person, you should do some personal research.

I have. Most of the skeptics have.

Quoted message said:

People who understand the natural way to health, have had to learn
about it all by themselves.

I suppose that explains the disparity of views.

Quoted message said:

What that means is, we have had to inconvenience ourselves and look
at it from a positive point of view, not negative.

What on earth does that mean? Thinking happy thoughts will keep you
from getting sick?

Quoted message said:

First, you must undertstand that the most basic difference is that in
the medical model, there is no cure. The mission of medicine is to
relieve the symptoms in order to give the patient the sense that his
disease has been cured.

Horse manure. Palliative care does have its place, but the notion
that medicine never effects a cure (or helps do to so, really) is a
major myth fostered by the "alternative" camp. They are, apparently,
the only ones who actually understand the cause of disease. Which is
strange, because you'd think if they actually could do that, none of
them would ever get sick, and their cures would work 100% of the time.

Quoted message said:

The trouble is that a new disease appears and that disease gets a new
medicine designed to relieve the symptoms of that disease, and so on
and so on.

Another version of the same myth -- that conventional medicine only
treats the symptoms, but leaves the 'underlying cause' untouched, and
the cause will therefore burst forth in some new guise, like
crabgrass.

Quoted message said:

In the natural way, a cure becomes possible. The understanding that
must be gained, is that this cure is effected by our own immune
system. The purpose of natural ways is to restore and maintain
our own immune system so our own bodies can fight our diseases and
conditions.

Trouble is, the immune system is a complex thing, and the idea that
you can just do some magic thing to "restore" it, is silly.

Quoted message said:

If anybody tells you that their SBGA or NONI Juice, or ginseng will
cure your childs ADHD, you are now well enough informed to know that
they are assuming that you understand this fundamental bit of
knowledge, not trying to trick you.

They're not trying to trick you, maybe, in the sense that they may
believe their hype. But they're not telling the truth.

Quoted message said:

I happen to fully understand that all of these things will in all
probability build that childs body up enough to "cure" that ADHD.

I seriously question whether you could "fully understand" how to set
the time on a clock.

Quoted message said:

And it won't come back. Once you begin to actually understand, you
will see how things have come down to the drug companies fighting for
their financial health, which is a separate issue from your health.

It certainly is -- if you patronize those evil drug companies and
their products, you might not be able to keep the spammers in
business. This is a very serious matter. To them.

Quoted message said:

There is much written on cancer and natural ways to solve it. I have
seen numerous cancer patients who take CHEMO, radiation and other
toxic therapies use natural herbs such as medicinal ginseng to
successfully protect them from the nasty side effects of this
treament. This is a very good example of medical science and nature
working together. None of these patients have not had any
reoccurrence.

If none of them have not had a recurrence, then all of them have had a
recurrence.

Stay away from the ginseng, kids.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tsu Dho Nimh said:

(David Wright) said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

probable troll Angela said:

A(The?) leading cause of death today is iatrogenic illness. Is this a
plan?

It's not even a fact; the leading cause of death today in the US is
heart disease, then cancer, then stroke.

They are all heavily influenced by lifestyle. And they are
primarily found in older adults. The modern medicine you berate
is making people live long enough to die from the diseases of old
age.

I'd just like to interject that the "you berate" item in the preceding
paragraph is, I hope, intended for Angela, not me.

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

In article <[email hidden]>,

Spammin' Dave gLowlife said:

"Happy Dog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bollocks. Antibiotics, for example, cure many types of bacterial
infections. Period.

Exactly, they kill a lot of the bacteria, but they certainly don't cure the
weakness that allowed them to occur in the first place. Do any of you
pack of fools have any understanding of what the immune system is
is or why it even was invented???!!! Do you think YOUJ have one that
is functional? Why?

Oh, do tell us all about the immune system. Tell us all about
cell-mediated immunity. Tell us about other types of immunity.
Tell us about helper T-cells and NK and all those other great
things. What, you can't?

Never mind your immune system -- do you have a functioning
cerebral cortex?

-- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net
These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
"If I have not seen as far as others, it is because giants
were standing on my shoulders." (Hal Abelson, MIT)

Dave said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As if ten years of post secondary school education and training isn't an
"inconvenience".

Exactly, in Canada it is eleven years but I'm sure its the same thing.
Eleven years of
studying one thing. Doesn't that cause a very narrow view?

Quoted message said:

Actually for me it was no inconvenience, I enjoyed it quite
thoroughly. It did take a long time though.

Well, congratulations! Are you a butcher or a drug dealer?

You are replying to two different people in the same message ?

Please be more specific.