Braking Technique

Dani, try this... Go out and find a big hill, get going really fast and grab your front brake, hard
as you can like you would in an emergency situation. When you get out of the hospital, write back
and let us know how it works. Thanks, Ray

asqui said:

In the footage of Beloki's spectacular crash it can be seen that Armstrong briefly locks up his
rear wheel as Beloki crashes. I thought on a decent surface the best way to stop was front brake
only? I guess that was feasible with the Weinmann brakes on my Eddy Meckx but these Tektro
cantilevers leave some braking performance to be desired 🙁. Anyway, obviously on a descent like
that you'll want to use both to distribute the rim heating evenly, but why did Lance lock up the
rear? In the emergency situation shouldn't he have been using the front brake exclusively --
exactly for the reason of avoiding a rear wheel skid?

(I will agree that front brake only is a little "eggs in one basket" because if you wash out the
front you're pretty much gone, but I'm arguing based on the "front brake only" rule I've heard
time and time again.)

Dani

Quoted message said:

Dani, try this... Go out and find a big hill, get going really fast and grab your front brake,
hard as you can like you would in an emergency situation. When you get out of the hospital, write
back and let us know how it works. Thanks, Ray

what foolishness, everyone knows it's both brakes.

Callistus Valerius said:

Quoted message said:

Dani, try this... Go out and find a big hill, get going really fast and grab your front brake,
hard as you can like you would in an emergency situation. When you get out of the hospital, write
back and let us know how it works. Thanks, Ray

what foolishness, everyone knows it's both brakes.

The argument I have heard is thus:

Since the center of gravity of the human-bike system is higher than the wheel-road interface (which
provides the braking force) the human-bike system has the tendency to pitch forward with braking,
causing weight transfer to the front wheel. Hence the theoretical scenario for maximal braking would
be that the braking is sufficient to transfer all weight to the front wheel, leaving the rear wheel
with zero force on the ground. At this point any increase in braking force of the front wheel would
cause the rear wheel to lose contact with the ground, and braking on the rear wheel would cause the
it to skid and increase the chances of the rider losing control.

This assumes that the front wheel has sufficient friction with the road (in order to not skid) and
brake blocks (in order to receive the necessary braking force).

As for the experiment, I've already carried it out -- steep downhill, amber light, car in front
stops. I managed to stop about a meter behind said car, with my rear wheel off the ground and trying
to overtake me. I think that was because I was out of the saddle and didn't sit down on it properly
as I was braking. Ideally I would have sat down and shifted my weight back to keep the rear wheel on
the ground and increase my stability.

What do you think?

Dani

In article said:

Callistus Valerius said:

Quoted message said:

Dani, try this... Go out and find a big hill, get going really fast and grab your front brake,
hard as you can like you would in an emergency situation. When you get out of the hospital,
write back and let us know how it works. Thanks, Ray

what foolishness, everyone knows it's both brakes.

The argument I have heard is thus:

Since the center of gravity of the human-bike system is higher than the wheel-road interface
(which provides the braking force) the human-bike system has the tendency to pitch forward with
braking, causing weight transfer to the front wheel. Hence the theoretical scenario for maximal
braking would be that the braking is sufficient to transfer all weight to the front wheel, leaving
the rear wheel with zero force on the ground. At this point any increase in braking force of the
front wheel would cause the rear wheel to lose contact with the ground, and braking on the rear
wheel would cause the it to skid and increase the chances of the rider losing control.

This assumes that the front wheel has sufficient friction with the road (in order to not skid) and
brake blocks (in order to receive the necessary braking force).

As for the experiment, I've already carried it out -- steep downhill, amber light, car in front
stops. I managed to stop about a meter behind said car, with my rear wheel off the ground and
trying to overtake me. I think that was because I was out of the saddle and didn't sit down on it
properly as I was braking. Ideally I would have sat down and shifted my weight back to keep the
rear wheel on the ground and increase my stability.

What do you think?

I think you should worry less about invalid "arguments" and spend the time practicing with both
brakes and keeping your weight farther back under heavy braking. Don't you think that having two
tires making contact/friction with the ground would work better?

-WG

"asqui" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Callistus Valerius said:

Quoted message said:

Dani, try this... Go out and find a big hill, get going really fast and grab your front brake,
hard as you can like you would in an emergency situation. When you get out of the hospital,
write back and let us know how it works. Thanks, Ray

what foolishness, everyone knows it's both brakes.

The argument I have heard is thus:

Since the center of gravity of the human-bike system is higher than the wheel-road interface
(which provides the braking force) the human-bike system has the tendency to pitch forward with
braking, causing weight transfer to the front wheel. Hence the theoretical scenario for maximal
braking would be that the

braking

Quoted message said:

is sufficient to transfer all weight to the front wheel, leaving the rear wheel with zero force on
the ground. At this point any increase in braking force of the front wheel would cause the rear
wheel to lose contact with

the

Quoted message said:

ground, and braking on the rear wheel would cause the it to skid and increase the chances of the
rider losing control.

This assumes that the front wheel has sufficient friction with the road

(in

Quoted message said:

order to not skid) and brake blocks (in order to receive the necessary braking force).

As for the experiment, I've already carried it out -- steep downhill,

amber

Quoted message said:

light, car in front stops. I managed to stop about a meter behind said

car,

Quoted message said:

with my rear wheel off the ground and trying to overtake me. I think that was because I was out of
the saddle and didn't sit down on it properly as

I

Quoted message said:

was braking. Ideally I would have sat down and shifted my weight back to keep the rear wheel on
the ground and increase my stability.

What do you think?

Dani

You've got the right idea, but you need to brake with your rear brakes AND shift your weight behind
the saddle, AND... There are a lot more steps to braking with just the front brake that haven't been
explained.

Use the front brake, smoothly apply the brake as much as you can without pitching over forwards,
feather the rear brake when it starts to skid, shift your weight behind the saddle like you're
throwing your bike for a sprint win, and you'll be OK.

Practice like that till it is instinctive. Best way to do that is do a lot of mtn biking down
steep-ish trails.

Mike

Quoted message said:

As for the experiment, I've already carried it out -- steep downhill,

amber

Quoted message said:

light, car in front stops. I managed to stop about a meter behind said

car,

Quoted message said:

with my rear wheel off the ground and trying to overtake me. I think that was because I was out of
the saddle and didn't sit down on it properly as

I

Quoted message said:

was braking. Ideally I would have sat down and shifted my weight back to keep the rear wheel on
the ground and increase my stability.

What do you think?

Dani

If you have to think about it then you're not going to get it right. Keep your
hospitalization paid up.

Follow the link Video: Daily Clips letour.frindex.htmlOpen ↗ and replay the crash
several times. Armstrong is good but it is even more important at times to be lucky. He did leave
himself about three bike lengths to maneuver and pick his own line. His only option was to the left
of Beloki. If he had been forced off the road five to ten five feet earlier earlier that drainage
ditch would have been one hell of a bunny hop. What is surprising when you replay the clip is how
fast he is going across the field. He didn't ease himself off the road.

Bill

warren said:

I think you should worry less about invalid "arguments" and spend the time practicing with both
brakes and keeping your weight farther back under heavy braking. Don't you think that having two
tires making contact/friction with the ground would work better?

-WG

So yeah... now that I found out where I read this invalid argument perhaps you would like to
consult the rec.bicycles.* faq around here: draco.acs.uci.edu9.17.htmlOpen ↗ Eating
one's hat is optional.

Dani

rayneman said:

Dani, try this... Go out and find a big hill, get going really fast and grab your front brake,
hard as you can like you would in an emergency situation. When you get out of the hospital, write
back and let us know how it works. Thanks, Ray

If I was going to indiscriminately squeeze as hard as I possibly could on a single lever, I don't
think it would make any difference whether I skid the front, skid the rear uncontrollably and slide,
or possibly even fail to brace my hands against the bars and fly over them before developing enough
braking force to skid the front wheel.

I was talking about effective braking technique, not how to hurt yourself by panicking in an
emergency and doing something rash.

The rec.bicycles.* faq (draco.acs.uci.edu9.17.htmlOpen ↗) and Sheldon Brown
(sheldonbrown.combrakturn.htmlOpen ↗) are the most likely candidates for where I heard about the
front-brake-only technique. I hope you will agree that they are both reputable sources and present
the solid justification for this technique.

Dani

"asqui" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

rayneman wrote:

If I was going to indiscriminately squeeze as hard as I possibly could on

a

Quoted message said:

single lever, I don't think it would make any difference whether I skid

the

Quoted message said:

front, skid the rear uncontrollably and slide, or possibly even fail to brace my hands against the
bars and fly over them before developing enough braking force to skid the front wheel.

I was talking about effective braking technique, not how to hurt yourself

by

Quoted message said:

panicking in an emergency and doing something rash.

The rec.bicycles.* faq (draco.acs.uci.edu9.17.htmlOpen ↗) and Sheldon Brown
(sheldonbrown.combrakturn.htmlOpen ↗) are the most likely candidates for where I heard about the
front-brake-only technique. I hope you will agree that they are both reputable sources and present
the solid justification for this technique.

Dani

Both the FAQ and Mr. Brown are correct and I don't think they advocate front-brake only for max
braking. Max braking is a slippery ideal. Even with full concentration it's a tricky thing. Put the
purple mist or sheer panic into the mix and it's nearly impossible to achieve consistently. Max
braking does occur when the rear wheel is leaving the ground, effectively making the rear brake
useless. But it's a tricky thing to accomplish. So unless the rear wheel is off the ground, the rear
brake is making SOME contribution, however very little it may be. It's a sliding scale, front versus
rear brake, depending on how much deceleration is occuring and how much weight is on the rear wheel.
In a situation like Beloki's crash, these things can easily overwhelm even the best riders. We're
talking about a guy who makes his professional living climbing and descending mountains..I'm sure
he's well aware of braking techniques and maybe he was simply in a situation that was impossible.
There may have been just too much sensory input to decode and he just made a mistake.

Incidentally, I hit the racetrack every now and again with my motorcycle and I NEVER touch the rear
brake when at the track. However, if you watch the good guys, you can see them sliding the rear tire
into corners using the rear brake and engine braking. These guys are able to decode the input from
the bike to do those things. I'm simply overwhelmed with all the stuff going on and cannot do the
stuff they do. So your idea of front-brake only may be analogous to my motorcycle situation..if you
can't reliably operate the rear brake during max braking so that the rear wheel doesn't skid, you're
probably better off using the front only.

Cheers,

Scott..

In article said:

warren said:

I think you should worry less about invalid "arguments" and spend the time practicing with both
brakes and keeping your weight farther back under heavy braking. Don't you think that having two
tires making contact/friction with the ground would work better?

-WG

So yeah... now that I found out where I read this invalid argument perhaps you would like to
consult the rec.bicycles.* faq around here: draco.acs.uci.edu9.17.htmlOpen ↗ Eating
one's hat is optional.

Look dude, 700+ criteriums and riding up and down the 15mph switchbacks here in the Sierra foothills
have taught me plenty about braking. It's true that more braking force is used on the front wheel
but you were talking about putting none on the rear wheel, which is dumb.

Stay out of my way in the turns.

-WG

"S. Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Incidentally, I hit the racetrack every now and again with my motorcycle

and

Quoted message said:

I NEVER touch the rear brake when at the track. However, if you watch the good guys, you can see
them sliding the rear tire into corners using the rear brake and engine braking. These guys are
able to decode the input

from

Quoted message said:

the bike to do those things. I'm simply overwhelmed with all the stuff going on and cannot do the
stuff they do. So your idea of front-brake

only

Quoted message said:

may be analogous to my motorcycle situation..if you can't reliably operate the rear brake during
max braking so that the rear wheel doesn't skid, you're probably better off using the front only.

Take one XR-100, add one steel shoe, mix in a dirt field and you'll learn wonders.

Carl Proud attendee Kenny Roberts Training Ranch

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, asqui <[email hidden]> wrote:

Look dude, 700+ criteriums and riding up and down the 15mph switchbacks here in the Sierra
foothills have taught me plenty about braking. It's true that more braking force is used on the
front wheel but you were talking about putting none on the rear wheel, which is dumb.

Stay out of my way in the turns.

-WG

700+ criteriums?? How many years have you been racing?? That's a bit of practice to be sure! And
you're right. Braking is a dynamic condition..the amount of traction on either wheel is going to be
variable depending on a number of factors and save for that amazingly fine line where the rear wheel
begins to lift off, the rear wheel does contribute some braking.

Cheers,

Scott..

"asqui" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

warren said:

I think you should worry less about invalid "arguments" and spend the time practicing with both
brakes and keeping your weight farther back under heavy braking. Don't you think that having two
tires making contact/friction with the ground would work better?

-WG

So yeah... now that I found out where I read this invalid argument perhaps you would like to
consult the rec.bicycles.* faq around here: draco.acs.uci.edu9.17.htmlOpen ↗ Eating
one's hat is optional.

Try reading this: draco.acs.uci.edu9.15.htmlOpen ↗

This has more information about braking in the context of corners...

Andrew Lee said:

"asqui" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

warren said:

I think you should worry less about invalid "arguments" and spend the time practicing with both
brakes and keeping your weight farther back under heavy braking. Don't you think that having two
tires making contact/friction with the ground would work better?

-WG

So yeah... now that I found out where I read this invalid argument perhaps you would like to
consult the rec.bicycles.* faq around here: draco.acs.uci.edu9.17.htmlOpen ↗ Eating
one's hat is optional.

Try reading this: draco.acs.uci.edu9.15.htmlOpen ↗

This has more information about braking in the context of corners...

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear in my original post. I was referring to emergency braking on a good
surface in a straight line. Armstrong was braking in a straight line as he came past the outside of
Beloki. This section of the faq states once more that front brake only is the quickest way to
decelerate as long as you're not banked in the middle of a turn.

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Take one XR-100, add one steel shoe, mix in a dirt field and you'll learn wonders.

Carl Proud attendee Kenny Roberts Training Ranch

Haha! Yeah, those dirt-track guys are the guys I'm talking about! The Hayden Bros, the Bostrom Bros,
Kenny hisownself...those guys can back it in at 120mph on asphalt..it takes all my concentration to
just get through without crashing..these guys are having a party at 120mph. It takes practice,
practice practice and some natural ability I suppose. In the meantime, I'll stick to my front brake
only, no-high-side technique and maybe enroll with old King Kenny one of these days!!

Cheers,

Scott..

Since you compare bicycles to motorcycles, I have a different question:

I used to ride motorcycles, and tried amateur roadracing for a couple of years. Last year, when I
bought my first-ever good quality road bicycle, I asked the staff at the bike shop if you use
countersteering to go around fast corners on a bicycle, as you do on a motorcycle (pushing the
handlebar away from you). They didn't know what I was talking about.

So, do you use countersteering on a road bicycle?

Thanks, Zelda

"S. Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(snip) Incidentally, I hit the racetrack every now and again with my motorcycle and I NEVER touch
the rear brake when at the track. However, if you watch the good guys, you can see them sliding
the rear tire into corners using the rear brake and engine braking. These guys are able to decode
the input from the bike to do those things. I'm simply overwhelmed with all the stuff going on and
cannot do the stuff they do. So your idea of front-brake only may be analogous to my motorcycle
situation..if you can't reliably operate the rear brake during max braking so that the rear wheel
doesn't skid, you're probably better off using the front only.

Cheers,

Scott..

(Zelda) said:

Since you compare bicycles to motorcycles, I have a different question:

I used to ride motorcycles, and tried amateur roadracing for a couple of years. Last year, when I
bought my first-ever good quality road bicycle, I asked the staff at the bike shop if you use
countersteering to go around fast corners on a bicycle, as you do on a motorcycle (pushing the
handlebar away from you). They didn't know what I was talking about.

So, do you use countersteering on a road bicycle?

Try it and get back to us. BTW - do you think you can produce the same amount of torque to the real
wheel of the bike while cornering that you got on the motorcycle?

Lindsay
----------------------------
"One of the annoying things about believing in free will and individual responsibility is the
difficulty of finding somebody to blame your problems on. And when you do find somebody, it's
remarkable how often his picture turns up on your driver's license."

P.J. O'Rourke

In article said:

Andrew Lee said:

"asqui" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

warren wrote:
> I think you should worry less about invalid "arguments" and spend the time practicing with
> both brakes and keeping your weight farther back under heavy braking. Don't you think that
> having two tires making contact/friction with the ground would work better?
>
> -WG

So yeah... now that I found out where I read this invalid argument perhaps you would like to
consult the rec.bicycles.* faq around here: draco.acs.uci.edu9.17.htmlOpen ↗ Eating
one's hat is optional.

Try reading this: draco.acs.uci.edu9.15.htmlOpen ↗

This has more information about braking in the context of corners...

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear in my original post. I was referring to emergency braking on a good
surface in a straight line. Armstrong was braking in a straight line as he came past the outside
of Beloki. This section of the faq states once more that front brake only is the quickest way to
decelerate as long as you're not banked in the middle of a turn.

Then it's wrong. Think about my question again...

"Don't you think that having two tires making contact/friction with the ground (with the brakes
applied) would work better than one?"

Why don't you go out and test your theory and that FAQ statement and get back to us? Make sure to
bring your hat.

-WG

"asqui" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Andrew Lee said:

"asqui" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

warren wrote:
> I think you should worry less about invalid "arguments" and spend the time practicing with
> both brakes and keeping your weight farther back under heavy braking. Don't you think that
> having two tires making contact/friction with the ground would work better?
>
> -WG

So yeah... now that I found out where I read this invalid argument perhaps you would like to
consult the rec.bicycles.* faq around here: draco.acs.uci.edu9.17.htmlOpen ↗ Eating
one's hat is optional.

Try reading this: draco.acs.uci.edu9.15.htmlOpen ↗

This has more information about braking in the context of corners...

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear in my original post. I was referring to emergency braking on a good
surface in a straight line. Armstrong was braking in a straight line as he came past the outside
of Beloki. This section of the faq states once more that front brake only is the quickest way to
decelerate as long as you're not banked in the middle of a turn.

And using the front brake only is also the easiest way to end up over the bars and on the ground! If
you aren't careful, the front brake has more than enough power to dump you on your [censored].

Mike