Braking Technique

Steve McGinty said:

Anyone know who the fat guy wearing Botero's race number is?

Regards! Stephen

How can you say that. you've upset me now!! He's not fat.... Pink didn't suit Ullrich either

Jan

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Zelda said:

Since you compare bicycles to motorcycles, I have a different question:

I used to ride motorcycles, and tried amateur roadracing for a couple of years. Last year, when I
bought my first-ever good quality road bicycle, I asked the staff at the bike shop if you use
countersteering to go around fast corners on a bicycle, as you do on a motorcycle (pushing the
handlebar away from you). They didn't know what I was talking about.

So, do you use countersteering on a road bicycle?

Thanks, Zelda

Apparently yes. I say "apparently" because it is in the FAQ, but I've never conciously done it. It's
said to be a subconcious technique, and I believe I've detected it in my own riding. I get around
the corners okay in competition.

Boy, that sounded like the statement of an expert. Hope it helps.

--
--
Lynn Wallace xmission.com~lawallOpen ↗ "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

Countersteering works great for roadbikes, you will just want to practice a bit. A dirty road
surface is not a good spot to practice since the countersteering puts a hefty lean onto the frame
and a dirty road would result in your wheels sliding out from under you. On rough roads or gritty
roads it is best to put your body heavy into the corner and keep the bike up-right as possible,
this makes the pressure on the tires more directly down, versus a sharp angle between the tire
and the road.

Good luck!

[email hidden] (Zelda) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Since you compare bicycles to motorcycles, I have a different question:

I used to ride motorcycles, and tried amateur roadracing for a couple of years. Last year, when I
bought my first-ever good quality road bicycle, I asked the staff at the bike shop if you use
countersteering to go around fast corners on a bicycle, as you do on a motorcycle (pushing the
handlebar away from you). They didn't know what I was talking about.

So, do you use countersteering on a road bicycle?

Thanks, Zelda

"S. Anderson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(snip) Incidentally, I hit the racetrack every now and again with my motorcycle and I NEVER
touch the rear brake when at the track. However, if you watch the good guys, you can see them
sliding the rear tire into corners using the rear brake and engine braking. These guys are able
to decode the input from the bike to do those things. I'm simply overwhelmed with all the stuff
going on and cannot do the stuff they do. So your idea of front-brake only may be analogous to
my motorcycle situation..if you can't reliably operate the rear brake during max braking so that
the rear wheel doesn't skid, you're probably better off using the front only.

Cheers,

Scott..

"Zelda" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Since you compare bicycles to motorcycles, I have a different question:

I used to ride motorcycles, and tried amateur roadracing for a couple of years. Last year, when I
bought my first-ever good quality road bicycle, I asked the staff at the bike shop if you use
countersteering to go around fast corners on a bicycle, as you do on a motorcycle (pushing the
handlebar away from you). They didn't know what I was talking about.

So, do you use countersteering on a road bicycle?

Thanks, Zelda

I think the whole countsteer thing is a little over-done. EVERYONE countersteers when riding a
bicycle or motorcycle, whether they know what it's called or what it's supposed to be. I don't think
you can initiate a turn on a bike at any kind of speed without countersteering. Riding schools
emphasize and encapsulate the idea for students so they know the mechanism for initiating and
maintaining a turn, but everyone who rides does it whether they know it or not. It's a lot easier to
tip a bicycle in than a motorcycle at each machine's normal operating speeds (say, 100kmh for a
motorcycle and 20kmh for a bicycle) so the countersteer is more obvious on a motorcycle. You really
have to push those clip-ons around to get the thing to turn in. Much less force is required on a
bike, so it's probably harder for a bicyclist to recognize what's going on, but the mechanism is the
same. That's my take on it anyways.

Cheers,

Scott..

"Lindsay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Try it and get back to us. BTW - do you think you can produce the same amount of torque to the
real wheel of the bike while cornering that you got on the motorcycle?

Lindsay

The tricky part is not hitting the pedal on the pavement while leaned over!! ;-) That's one of the
nifty things about motorcycles versus bicycles..big, lurid power slides going out of corners...

Cheers,

Scott..

Race Fan said:

Countersteering works great for roadbikes, you will just want to practice a bit. A dirty road
surface is not a good spot to practice since the countersteering puts a hefty lean onto the frame
and a dirty road would result in your wheels sliding out from under you. On rough roads or gritty
roads it is best to put your body heavy into the corner and keep the bike up-right as possible,
this makes the pressure on the tires more directly down, versus a sharp angle between the tire and
the road.

Good luck!

Sheldon Brown would disagree: sheldonbrown.combrakturn.htmlOpen ↗

S. Anderson said:

"Zelda" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Since you compare bicycles to motorcycles, I have a different question:

I used to ride motorcycles, and tried amateur roadracing for a couple of years. Last year, when I
bought my first-ever good quality road bicycle, I asked the staff at the bike shop if you use
countersteering to go around fast corners on a bicycle, as you do on a motorcycle (pushing the
handlebar away from you). They didn't know what I was talking about.

So, do you use countersteering on a road bicycle?

Thanks, Zelda

I think the whole countsteer thing is a little over-done. EVERYONE countersteers when riding a
bicycle or motorcycle, whether they know what it's called or what it's supposed to be. I don't
think you can initiate a turn on a bike at any kind of speed without countersteering. Riding
schools emphasize and encapsulate the idea for students so they know the mechanism for initiating
and maintaining a turn, but everyone who rides does it whether they know it or not. It's a lot
easier to tip a bicycle in than a motorcycle at each machine's normal operating speeds (say,
100kmh for a motorcycle and 20kmh for a bicycle) so the countersteer is more obvious on a
motorcycle. You really have to push those clip-ons around to get the thing to turn in. Much less
force is required on a bike, so it's probably harder for a bicyclist to recognize what's going on,
but the mechanism is the same. That's my take on it anyways.

Cheers,

Scott..

What about leaning your weight? I have seen that other people can rather competently steer a bike
with their hands off the bars. Not through any hairpins mind you.

asqui said:

What about leaning your weight? I have seen that other people can rather competently steer a bike
with their hands off the bars. Not through any hairpins mind you.

Vary the pressure (weight) slightly between the pedals on the downstroke or stop pedalling with the
lower foot in the direction you want to turn and put a little weight on it. (Either way, you tilt
your hips a bit in that direction.)

"Zelda" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Since you compare bicycles to motorcycles, I have a different question:

I used to ride motorcycles, and tried amateur roadracing for a couple of years. Last year, when I
bought my first-ever good quality road bicycle, I asked the staff at the bike shop if you use
countersteering to go around fast corners on a bicycle, as you do on a motorcycle (pushing the
handlebar away from you). They didn't know what I was talking about.

So, do you use countersteering on a road bicycle?

Thanks, Zelda

Yes, you do.

But remember: you can't wheelie a shaft-driven bicycle.

Zelda said:

Since you compare bicycles to motorcycles, I have a different question:

I used to ride motorcycles, and tried amateur roadracing for a couple of years. Last year, when I
bought my first-ever good quality road bicycle, I asked the staff at the bike shop if you use
countersteering to go around fast corners on a bicycle, as you do on a motorcycle (pushing the
handlebar away from you). They didn't know what I was talking about.

So, do you use countersteering on a road bicycle?

Yeah, but not consciously. I found myself doing it when caught on the inside of a sharp 90 degree
turn (crit). In fact it must be intuitive because I was watching my 7 year old daughter countersteer
as she was riding up and down the driveway the other day.

--
Dominic Richens | [email hidden] "If you're not *outraged*, you're not paying attention!"

In article said:

But remember: you can't wheelie a shaft-driven bicycle.

Carl, I suspect that about .0005% of the people reading this group will have any idea where -that-
one came from. Good one.

--
tanx, Howard

Read. Think. Type. Send.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, k?

For some people, quantity IS quality...

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Yes, you do.

But remember: you can't wheelie a shaft-driven bicycle.

Never ridden a shaft-drive bicycle..but you sure can wheelie a shaft-drive motorcycle!! Course, most
bikes with shaft drive aren't happy about being wheelied..but if ya cane it enough.. ;-)

Cheers,

Scott..

An experience from looong ago might relate to this question.

I made the pilgrimmage to the 1983 Coors Classic with my bike stuffed into the back seat of my '66
Rambler, and tent and sleeping bag in the trunk. I was a new, enthusiast young pup of a racer from
South Dakota, which of course is a Mecca for racing. In the warmup for the women's city park
criterium, I followed a couple racers around the course on my bike. We came to a corner. They dove
right into it and I was left thinking, how the hell did they do that, as I lost several meters
before even beginning the turn.

After that, I started practicing "diving" into a turn. I believe I learned countersteering as a
result of that experience.

--
--
Lynn Wallace xmission.com~lawallOpen ↗ "I'm not proud. We really haven't done everything we
could to protect our customers. Our products just aren't engineered for security." --Microsoft VP in
charge of Windows OS Development, Brian Valentine.

In article said:

An experience from looong ago might relate to this question.

I made the pilgrimmage to the 1983 Coors Classic with my bike stuffed into the back seat of my '66
Rambler, and tent and sleeping bag in the trunk. I was a new, enthusiast young pup of a racer from
South Dakota, which of course is a Mecca for racing. In the warmup for the women's city park
criterium, I followed a couple racers around the course on my bike. We came to a corner. They dove
right into it and I was left thinking, how the hell did they do that, as I lost several meters
before even beginning the turn.

After that, I started practicing "diving" into a turn. I believe I learned countersteering as a
result of that experience.

Being good in turns has alot more to do with your line, willingness not to overbrake-especially as
you approach the turn, ability to finesse your way between people going too slow, and having an
attitude that turns are the easiest place to make up ground and every turn is an opportunity to go
as fast as possible without having to pedal.

-WG

warren said:

Quoted message said:

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear in my original post. I was referring to emergency braking on a
good surface in a straight line. Armstrong was braking in a straight line as he came past the
outside of Beloki. This section of the faq states once more that front brake only is the
quickest way to decelerate as long as you're not banked in the middle of a turn.

Then it's wrong. Think about my question again...

"Don't you think that having two tires making contact/friction with the ground (with the brakes
applied) would work better than one?"

Uh, no. Because if the rear wheel still has significant traction, you aren't applying enough front
brake. Because of the weight shift toward the front, all the traction, and hence braking power, is
there. You can get it to the point where any braking on the rear will make it slide.

It's true for both motorcycles and bicycles, though the motorcyclists I know seem to have an easier
time grasping this.

Oh, and to the person mentioning certain motorcyclists using the rear brake to slide the rear end. .
. I can't vouch for those particular motorcyclists, but most don't use the rear brake to do that.
Front braking will unweight the rear so much that throttle can be used to do that. Rear brake
usually used to "trail brake" into a turn, and take up drivetrain slack just before significant
power is applied to prevent lash.

When it comes to turning, motorcycles diverge from bicycles somewhat because of the engine. . .
there are different techniques available because of it. Braking is largely the same though.

People always seem to bring up the ability to flip a bike over with the front brake. Sure, that's
possible, but it is exactly that power that makes it worth using, and using well, to its full
potential.

The FAQ and Sheldon are right. Go practice.

Silence is often the best headline. Jobst must still be doing his thing on the Alps.

A bit envious ...

Sergio Pisa

Howard Kveck said:

In article said:

But remember: you can't wheelie a shaft-driven bicycle.

Carl, I suspect that about .0005% of the people reading this group will have any idea where -that-
one came from. Good one.

Well, I managed to find a picture on google to explain what a shaft driven bicycle is:
rustyspokes.comImage5.jpgOpen ↗ Seems like a radical design concept, but why can't you
wheelie it?

Dani

S. Anderson said:

"Lindsay" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Try it and get back to us. BTW - do you think you can produce the same amount of torque to the
real wheel of the bike while cornering that you got on the motorcycle?

Lindsay

The tricky part is not hitting the pedal on the pavement while leaned over!! ;-) That's one of the
nifty things about motorcycles versus bicycles..big, lurid power slides going out of corners...

I grew up in upstate NY and immediately thought of the slides in the ice racing I used to watch. Try
that angle!! ;-)

Lindsay
----------------------------
"One of the annoying things about believing in free will and individual responsibility is the
difficulty of finding somebody to blame your problems on. And when you do find somebody, it's
remarkable how often his picture turns up on your driver's license."

P.J. O'Rourke

asqui said:

Well, I managed to find a picture on google to explain what a shaft driven bicycle is:
rustyspokes.comImage5.jpgOpen ↗ Seems like a radical design concept, but why can't you
wheelie it?

Is that titanium?

Lindsay
----------------------------
"One of the annoying things about believing in free will and individual responsibility is the
difficulty of finding somebody to blame your problems on. And when you do find somebody, it's
remarkable how often his picture turns up on your driver's license."

P.J. O'Rourke

In article <[email hidden]>, BikeRacer

Quoted message said:

warren said:

Quoted message said:

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear in my original post. I was referring to emergency braking on a
good surface in a straight line. Armstrong was braking in a straight line as he came past the
outside of Beloki. This section of the faq states once more that front brake only is the
quickest way to decelerate as long as you're not banked in the middle of a turn.

Then it's wrong. Think about my question again...

"Don't you think that having two tires making contact/friction with the ground (with the brakes
applied) would work better than one?"

Uh, no. Because if the rear wheel still has significant traction, you aren't applying enough
front brake.

I hope I'm never behind you in a race. You are scary.

-WG