Braking Technique

warren said:

In article said:

warren wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

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Read what I said. "You'd have more control..."

Not necessarily. In many situations, using the just the front brake gives both better control
(decreases the chance of rear wheel skid) _and_ potential for faster deceleration.

Sure Mark. Why aren't the pros following your advice?

You'll have to ask them. However, it been demonstrated many times that one does not have to have the
best bike handling skills to be a pro. For example, much has been made of Jan Ullrich's questionable
descending skills, and yet he is regarded as possible the best or 2nd best pro presently riding. No
one questions Chris Boardman's athletic ability, but he is the only racer I can remember who crashed
himself out of the Tour de France all by himself while wearing the yellow jersey in a single rider
crash on a flat, straight road in the middle of a stage. And then there is Alex Zulle, who was
constantly falling off his bike - none-the-less he was one of the top riders in the '90s. There are
plenty of other examples as well.

Quoted message said:

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>>#3) And to clarify, are you saying we should not use any rear brake at
>>all when we want to reduce speed rapidly in a straight line?
>
>There is strong argument that the rear brake is not required at all when stopping in a straight
>line on clean dry pavement.

Sure. Tell that to the guys who race for a living.

Someone has already be beaten me to it.

No, the pros aren't following that guy's advice.

The ones who know what they are doing are. For example, Keith Code's book "A Gear Higher: The
Racer's Handbook of Techniques" includes liner notes from pro downhill racer Marla Streb, who in the
book's introduction credits the techniques taught by Code for much of her success. Perhaps you'd
like to arrange a bike handling smack-down with Marla, to see who knows how to use their brakes?

Quoted message said:

The evidence is on OLN and at bike races. Do a few hundred criteriums with skilled racers and
maybe you'll learn alot more than you know now about braking and steering.

It is interesting that you pick criteriums to illustrate braking, when for the most part, criterium
racing typically does not use maximal braking. Firstly, top speeds in criteriums are frequently
slower than for hilly or mountainous road races, so speed reductions before corners are often
smaller in criteriums than for road race descents. But more importantly, criteriums tend to be raced
in tight packs, where hard braking adds the danger of being hit by riders behind. Indeed, it is
often said that having to use the brakes in the last lap of a criterium can cost a racer a win. If
you are frequently using hard braking in criteriums, I'm glad I don't race with you.

You might be interested in this discussion thread from a while ago, where it is discussed that good
braking technique is not required for criterium racing:

groups.google.comgroupsOpen ↗
6438.8060606%40sheldonbrown.com&rnum=2&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dbraking%2Btech
nique%2Bcriteriums%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D
3DE66438.8060606%2540sheldonbrown.com%26rnum%3D2

There are plenty of places off the race course where good braking technique are required - any steep
descent with sharp corners for example, or especially when the unexpected occurs in traffic (like
when a car suddenly appears out of a side street in front of you). Why do you believe that good
braking is only required on the race course?

Quoted message said:

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Why couldn't you steer with more front brake?

If it skids you can't steer as accurately. It's better to risk skidding the rear than the front. I
would hope a bike racer would already know this.

You reported that you were going nearly straight. You seem to be under the impression that skidding
a front wheel is easy to do under these conditions. Go out and try to skid your front wheel with the
front brake. On clean dry pavement it is nearly impossible, even under the hardest braking. Until
you recognize this fact, you can not optimize your braking.

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Since you are such a great bicycle rider, I'm sure you know that it is impossible to skid a front
tire while braking in a straight line on clean dry pavement. In those situations, the front tire
has far more traction than you can use for braking.

I guess my eyes have deceived me when I saw it happen all those times.

Then I guess your eyes have deceived you. Go out and try it to skid the front wheel sometime just
with the front brake. I doubt you'll be able to do it. Just for the heck of it, today I tested hard
braking with just my front brake several times. Regardless of how hard or from what speed I applied
the front brake, I could never get the front wheel to give even a hint of skidding, even a few times
when I braked hard enough to lift the rear wheel of the ground.

Quoted message said:

You really should spend more time racing and learning

instead of

Quoted message said:

relying on your mistaken understanding of the physics.

I've already spent plenty of time racing, and you've shown that it is your understanding of basic
physics that is mistaken.

I've spent enough time racing to know that much of the crashes and carnage is caused by people who
are convinced that just because they have strong legs, they are automatically good bike handlers.

It is interesting that in your example to demonstrate your superior braking skills, you ended up
crashing anyway. The last time I was in a similar situation (in my case, it was in response to a
major crash across the entire road ahead of me in a full pack of 125 riders while descending the
John Fitch Highway in the Fitchburg Stage Race, where I braked from about 30mph to 10mph in about 75
feet), instead of crashing, I bunny hopped the bikes laying in the road ahead of me. (Well, it
wasn't so much a bunny hop, but I was able to lift my front wheel up and ride over the fallen
bikes). Even under such hard braking, I was able to steer away from fallen riders laying in the road
and instead to a spot where there were only fallen bikes, and then release the brakes in time to
pull the front wheel up. If you are such an expert bike handler, why did you still crash?

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Just how do you know how much real world experience I may or may not have?

That's why I asked the question. It would also surprise me if you had done a few hundred races and
still believed what you do, but since you don't have that experience I'm not as surprised by your
beliefs.

Well, it turns out you are wrong (again), because I have easily done over two hundred races (of all
types - road races, criteriums, points races, etc.)

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Mark, how many criteriums have you done Cat 3 or better?

As I mentioned before, this question is irrelevant. But since you continue to insist in asking -
I'm afraid that I have lost count of the number of criteriums I have raced with cat. 2 & 3 riders,
but I have done my share.

Evasive as usual.

And a pointless veer away from the subject, as usual.

As far as I can tell, your whole argument can be paraphrased as this:

"Only pro racers can be expert bike handlers, and I'm truly convinced that I'm a good bike racer, so
I must be an expert bike handler, too. Therefore, despite my lack of understanding of the underlying
physics, people should believe me when I explain how to brake, even though people who are recognized
experts at teaching bike handling skills advise different techniques."

Unfortunately, your arguments are long on strutting and chest-thumping, and short on facts
and evidence.

Mark McMaster [email hidden]

In article said:

warren said:

In article said:

warren wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Read what I said. "You'd have more control..."

Not necessarily. In many situations, using the just the front brake gives both better control
(decreases the chance of rear wheel skid) _and_ potential for faster deceleration.

Sure Mark. Why aren't the pros following your advice?

You'll have to ask them.

I already know why. If you brake hard enough so that your front wheel has 90+% of your bodyweight on
it (according to you and your sources) you will have a very difficult time trying to steeer/make
subtle corrections. That is nearly always much worse than a slight skid of the rear tire and a good

Quoted message said:

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>Sure. Tell that to the guys who race for a living.

Someone has already be beaten me to it.

No, the pros aren't following that guy's advice.

The ones who know what they are doing are. For example, Keith Code's book "A Gear Higher: The
Racer's Handbook of Techniques" includes liner notes from pro downhill racer Marla Streb, who in
the book's introduction credits the techniques taught by Code for much of her success.

The opinion of a downhill racer is a very poor example for describing the braking technique of road
racing. Another demonstration that you lack an understanding of what is relevant for performing the
skill at a high level.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The evidence is on OLN and at bike races. Do a few hundred criteriums with skilled racers and
maybe you'll learn alot more than you know now about braking and steering.

It is interesting that you pick criteriums to illustrate braking, when for the most part,
criterium racing typically does not use maximal braking.

I already related the importance for avoiding crashes and obstacles on the ground.

Quoted message said:

You might be interested in this discussion thread from a while ago, where it is discussed that
good braking technique is not required for criterium racing:

Not required...? Tell that to the guys who are good at it.

Quoted message said:

Why do you believe that good braking is only required on the race course?

I never said that.

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Quoted message said:

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Why couldn't you steer with more front brake?

If it skids you can't steer as accurately. It's better to risk skidding the rear than the front.
I would hope a bike racer would already know this.

You reported that you were going nearly straight. You seem to be under the impression that
skidding a front wheel is easy to do under these conditions.

Never said that either. I said it was a very bad thing if it happened and it was better to risk
skidding the rear than the front.

Quoted message said:

Go out and try to skid your front wheel with the front brake. On clean dry pavement it is nearly
impossible, even under the hardest braking. Until you recognize this fact, you can not optimize
your braking.

Accurate steering is always important while using maximum braking and until you understand this fact
you will not optimize your ability to avoid the obstacles that require maximum braking.

Quoted message said:

Regardless of how hard or from what speed I applied the front brake, I could never get the front
wheel to give even a hint of skidding, even a few times when I braked hard enough to lift the rear
wheel of the ground.

I'll bet you're really good at steering around obstacles with your rear wheel off the ground.

Quoted message said:

It is interesting that in your example to demonstrate your superior braking skills, you ended up
crashing anyway.

Nope. I crash far less often than the the average racer in my events and I avoid many obstacles that
caused other people to crash. Other than an equipment failure about 250 races ago, the last time I
went down in a criterium was about 200 races ago when the guy on my front wheel crashed halfway
through a turn, and previous to that was a coming to-a-stop-fall-on-the-pile type of crash at the
criterium Nat's about 200-280 races ago.

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If you are such an expert bike handler, why did you still crash?

Another dumb comment. To spell it out, the very best bike handlers crash.

Here are the details of mine. As we are getting the bell the pack bunched up at the start/finish
line and every gap got filled as we went up the little grade of about 2-3%. Directly in front of me
was racer "B" and right in front of him was racer "A". We are about 2 feet from the left curb and a
rider on the left of "B" accelerates and hits the left end of "A"'s handlebars and A goes down
quickly and so hard he breaks his frame (all this according to what "A" told me later). I never saw
A go down. B suddenly goes down hard right in front of me (he ran into A) and breaks his collarbone.
When I see B go down on the ground about this time I slide way back on my seat, applying hard
braking, kind of bracing for impact but I barely manage to move about 1 foot to my right to avoid
B's head and as soon as I clear him there is A right in front of me and I tried to make a small move
(to the left I think) to avoid him but my front wheel hits his handlebars and gets caught (breaks my
front rim in 3 pieces) and I instinctively tuck my left shoulder under and do a gentle roll into the
snow fence on the left side of the road. I didn't quite go high enough in the air to go all the way
over the bars and rolling like I did meant I landed on my side in the fencing and I didn't get a
scratch or any injury. My rear tire was a Conti Sprinter about half worn down except there was one
spot where I could see a thread peeking through and two other places on the tire that looked
rubbed/skidded but no thread showing.

So, based on what you know, how far do you think it took me to go from 28 to about 5-10mph? I
guestimated 30 feet but I don't see how it matters whether it was 30 feet or 40 feet. I was able to
stop in almost the same distance as a guy who was falling and sliding on the ground.

Quoted message said:

As far as I can tell, your whole argument can be paraphrased as this:

"Only pro racers can be expert bike handlers,

Never said that.

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and I'm truly convinced that I'm a good bike racer, so I must be an expert bike handler, too.

I'm a better bike-handler than racer.

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Therefore, despite my lack of understanding of the underlying physics, people should believe me
when I explain how to brake,

Yes.

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even though people who are recognized experts at teaching bike handling skills advise different
techniques."

Sure. The only example you gave was dangerous advice and not relevant to road racing. More
demonstration that you simply lack enough knowledge and relevant experience to understand what is
relevant and important.

-WG

warren said:

In article said:

warren said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Mark McMaster <[email hidden]> wrote:

>warren wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sure Mark. Why aren't the pros following your advice?

You'll have to ask them.

I already know why. If you brake hard enough so that your front wheel has 90+% of your bodyweight
on it (according to you and your sources) you will have a very difficult time trying to
steeer/make subtle corrections. That is nearly always much worse than a slight skid of the rear
tire and a good

You seem to misunderstand the weight shift. Weight is shifted to the front wheel regardless of which
brake you use. If you brake at a certain deceleration rate using only the rear brake, the same
amount of weight will be shifted to the front wheel as if you had braked with the front brake. The
difference is that your rear tire is more likely to skid because its traction has been reduced,
whereas your front wheel is less likely to skid because its traction has been increased.

Likewise, any changes in steering action are affected only by the weight shift, not on which brake
is being used. If you brake at, say, 0.2g, the weight shift is the same and steering is the same
whether the front or rear brake is used.

However, in your case, your steering was greatly reduced by your insistence on over-braking the rear
wheel and skidding. If you had slowed at the same deceleration rate but with more reliance on the
front brake (and less on the rear), your rear tire would not have skidded, and your steering control
would have been better.

A skidding tire has less traction than a non-skidding (rolling) tire. At the very least, when you
first sensed the rear wheel skidding, you should have let off a bit on the rear brake lever, to stop
the skidding and increase whatever tire traction was available - you would have stopped faster. If
you are such a good bike handler, why did you allow the rear tire to keep skidding?

You also seem to be of the impression that a given braking rate can be achieved by using any mixture
of front and rear braking, when this is not at all true for hard braking. Due to the forward weight
shift and subsequent loss of rear tire traction, the rear brake becomes less effective as the
deceleration rate goes up. Up to about 0.20-0.25g, the rear brake can used supply up to 100% of the
braking. But by .30-0.33 g, the rear brake can only be used to supply at most about 50% of the
braking. At 0.4g (which puts 90% of the weight on the front wheel from your example above), the rear
brake can supply less than 20% of total braking. As you approach a deceleration rate of about 0.5 g,
the rear can contribute nothing to braking (no matter how hard you squeeze the brake lever).

So, if you choose to get half of your braking from the rear wheel, and I instead allow the
front wheel to take 90% of my weight, I will stop in a distance at least 20% shorter than you
will. If won't allow the front wheel to supply the majority of your braking, you simply can not
maximize braking.

Quoted message said:

The opinion of a downhill racer is a very poor example for describing the braking technique of
road racing. Another demonstration that you lack an understanding of what is relevant for
performing the skill at a high level.

Although she has made her biggest mark in downhill racing, Marla Streb races in a very wide variety
of events (road & off-road, bicycles & motorcycles). If you think she doesn't know how to handle a
bike on pavement, you are very wrong. And again, you seem to be claiming that expert braking is only
applicable to road racing.

You seem to think that professional criterium racers know the best braking technique. One of the
most respected criterium racers is Davis Phinney. He wrote a book titled, "Training For Cycling: The
Ultimate Guide to Improved Performance". In Section 2, Riding Techniques, he wrote:

"Most people are afraid to use the front brake because they think it will send them over the
handlebars, but the front brake is very effective if used properly." "You might be surprised to
learn that if I could have only one brake, the front brake would be my choice. The rear brake simply
does not have the stopping power of the front."

Interestingly, despite his obvious bent to criteriums and road racing, Phinney's only example of a
situation with very hard braking is not in a criterium, or even on road race, but off-road on
slick rock:

"In steep straight descent on a mountain bike, put your weight far off the back of the saddle and
clamp on the front brake. Your rear brake is used, but you will skid if you brake hard. The front
brake is best for optimal control and stopping power on very steep descents like those found on the
Slickrock Trail in Moab, Utah."

Slickrock has similar grip as pavement. Good steering control is very necessary for steep descents
on slickrock - a front wheel skid would be catastrophic, and a rear wheel skid is also best to
avoid. All similar to emergency stops on pavement. In addition, knobby MTB tires skid more easily on
hard pavement than do slick road tires, and the front weight shift is even more pronounced on steep
descents. And yet, Phinney still says that the front brake is the best to use, and that rear braking
is minimized.

So, it appears that some very talented road pros do use the braking techniques advocated by Keith
Code after all. Perhaps we should invite Davis Phinney to the bike handling smack-down between you
and Marla Streb?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Regardless of how hard or from what speed I applied the front brake, I could never get the front
wheel to give even a hint of skidding, even a few times when I braked hard enough to lift the rear
wheel of the ground.

I'll bet you're really good at steering around obstacles with your rear wheel off the ground.

I'm good at steering with both wheels turning. And I know that to do that at high deceleration
rates, I have to brake primarily with the front brake. Too much reliance on the rear brake at high
deceleration rates results in rear tire skidding, and consequently poor steering.

Quoted message said:

So, based on what you know, how far do you think it took me to go from 28 to about 5-10mph? I
guestimated 30 feet but I don't see how it matters whether it was 30 feet or 40 feet. I was able
to stop in almost the same distance as a guy who was falling and sliding on the ground.

Unfortunately, there is not enough information to figure out exactly long it took you to slow down.
However, I do know that since your rear wheel remained on the ground, you were decelerating at less
than about 0.5 g (the pitch over point), so it would have taken at least 46 feet to get to 10 mph,
and 50 feet to get to 5 mph. If you had any significant weight on the rear wheel, than you were
decelerating at an even slower rate, and would have taken even longer to reach those speeds.

Quoted message said:

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As far as I can tell, your whole argument can be paraphrased as this:

"Only pro racers can be expert bike handlers,

Never said that.

What you have said is:

"If you really want to know if your "no rear brake needed" idea works why aren't the pros following
your idea? I bow to the experience of a pro over yours."

"The evidence is on OLN and at bike races. Do a few hundred criteriums with skilled racers and maybe
you'll learn alot more than you know now about braking and steering."

"I guess my eyes have deceived me when I saw it happen all those times. You really should spend more
time racing and learning instead of relying on your mistaken understanding of the physics."

You have never admitted that anyone but a pro practices proper braking, so we can only conclude that
you believe only pros can brake properly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and I'm truly convinced that I'm a good bike racer, so I must be an expert bike handler, too.

I'm a better bike-handler than racer.

Says who? No evidence of that has yet been presented.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Therefore, despite my lack of understanding of the underlying physics, people should believe me
when I explain how to brake,

Yes.

So now you are the self-declared expert. My, you truly are impressed with yourself.

Quoted message said:

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even though people who are recognized experts at teaching bike handling skills advise different
techniques."

Sure.

So, we should just take your word for it for no other reason than because you believe you are an
expert, and even though your advise is contradicted by two professional racers (Davis Phinney and
Marla Streb), a professional coach and author of bike handling skills (Keith Code), the author of
the rec.bicycles FAQ on braking (Jobst Brandt), as well as many others. At the same time, no one has
chimed in to back you up. It seems that you are too self-involved, and yet too little self-aware, to
see the reality.

Quoted message said:

The only example you gave was dangerous advice and not

relevant

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to road racing. More demonstration that you simply lack enough knowledge and relevant experience
to understand what is relevant and important.

Amazing. The only example I gave avoided a crash, and the only example you gave resulted in a crash,
and yet my advice is dangerous ...

Mark McMaster [email hidden]

In article said:

warren said:

In article said:

warren wrote:

>In article <[email hidden]>, Mark McMaster <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>
>
>>warren wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Sure Mark. Why aren't the pros following your advice?

You'll have to ask them.

I already know why. If you brake hard enough so that your front wheel has 90+% of your
bodyweight on it (according to you and your sources) you will have a very difficult time trying
to steeer/make subtle corrections. That is nearly always much worse than a slight skid of the
rear tire and a good

You seem to misunderstand the weight shift. Weight is shifted to the front wheel regardless of
which brake you use.

I know that, but I'm not interested in shifting as much weight to the front as you advise because it
will have a worse affect on steering than the way I do it. But then I'm just doing what I see good
pros doing all the time.

Quoted message said:

However, in your case, your steering was greatly reduced by your insistence on over-braking the
rear wheel and skidding. If you had slowed at the same deceleration rate but with more reliance on
the front brake (and less on the rear), your rear tire would not have skidded, and your steering
control would have been better.

Given the situation I was in, and given that a very good pro descender like Beloki did the same
thing, I'm fine with what I did.

Quoted message said:

A skidding tire has less traction than a non-skidding (rolling) tire. At the very least, when you
first sensed the rear wheel skidding, you should have let off a bit on the rear brake lever,

See, you have a poor understanding of what goes on in that brief moment when I'm trying to avoid
running in to the heads of two guys sliding in front of me who were the two riders right in front me
(no time to prepare), while I slow down as quick as I possibly could under the circumstances.
Neither of us even know exactly how much front brake I was using but I was still able to steer
around something important.

Quoted message said:

to stop the skidding and increase whatever tire traction was available - you would have stopped
faster. If you are such a good bike handler, why did you allow the rear tire to keep skidding?

Later you say it probably took me 40+ feet to slow down yet my rear rire lost only about 25% of its
tread. I don't think I was skidding very long.

Quoted message said:

So, if you choose to get half of your braking from the rear wheel, and I instead allow the front
wheel to take 90% of my weight, I will stop in a distance at least 20% shorter than you will.

But you will have much less reliable/nimble steering around whatever it is you're trying to avoid.

What happens if I have 90% of my weight on my front wheel and I hit a slick spot on the pavement or
a bump or a bike or body? I think it's usually better to have less than 90% if there's a chance of
hitting something.

Quoted message said:

If won't allow the front wheel to supply the majority of your braking, you simply can not maximize
braking.

Again, braking is not the only important concern.

Quoted message said:

Although she has made her biggest mark in downhill racing, Marla Streb races in a very wide
variety of events (road & off-road, bicycles & motorcycles). If you think she doesn't know how to
handle a bike on pavement, you are very wrong. And again, you seem to be claiming that expert
braking is only applicable to road racing.

Nope, just that the braking on the road is often very different from braking off road and the
opinion of a MTB racer is not particularly valuable when the obvious experience and technique of
good road pros is contrary to her method (according to you).

Quoted message said:

You seem to think that professional criterium racers know the best braking technique.

I didn't say that. I think it can be critically important at times (contrary to what you said
earlier) but I think maximum braking while trying to avoid something is common for a road racer too.

Quoted message said:

"In steep straight descent on a mountain bike, put your weight far off the back of the saddle and
clamp on the front brake. Your rear brake is used, but you will skid if you brake hard. The front
brake is best for optimal control and stopping power on very steep descents like those found on
the Slickrock Trail in Moab, Utah."

The speed used there is a fraction of what happens in my case and the example provided by Beloki and
the gradient is much different too. The skill should be performed differently. I use my front brake
more when I'm on my MTB. Your use of MTB braking examples are another indication that you lack an
understanding of the important factors for the road, and for his racing Phinney always had to use
those mushy Dura-Ace brakes that had poor modulation.

You said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and I'm truly convinced that I'm a good bike racer, so I must be an expert bike handler, too.

I'm a better bike-handler than racer.

Says who? No evidence of that has yet been presented.

I know it. I was merely refuting your incorrect assumption about my opinion that one fact lead to
the other.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

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Therefore, despite my lack of understanding of the underlying physics, people should believe me
when I explain how to brake,

Yes.

So now you are the self-declared expert. My, you truly are impressed with yourself.

Not THE expert and lots of guys are better at it than me but the majority of them also use both
brakes for road events for the reasons I've said, and the fact that I crash less often than the
average of my fellow racers, and am able to pass alot of people who are demonstrating less accurate
braking skills than me does indicate my skill level is good. And unlike you, I'm not advocating
something contrary to the examples you can see every night on OLN.

Next time I'll just jam on my front brake harder and I'll stop 20% sooner but I won't be able to
avoid hitting the first guy's head because some dope on the internet told me to put 90% of my weight
on my arms and I couldn't steer as well. "Sorry about the skull fracture but look, my rear tire is
still good!"

-WG

warren said:

In article said:

warren said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Mark McMaster <[email hidden]> wrote:

>warren wrote:
>
>>In article <[email hidden]>, Mark McMaster <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>warren wrote:

Quoted message said:

>>Sure Mark. Why aren't the pros following your advice?
>
>You'll have to ask them.

I already know why. If you brake hard enough so that your front wheel has 90+% of your
bodyweight on it (according to you and your sources) you will have a very difficult time
trying to steeer/make subtle corrections. That is nearly always much worse than a slight skid
of the rear tire and a good

You seem to misunderstand the weight shift. Weight is shifted to the front wheel regardless of
which brake you use.

I know that, but I'm not interested in shifting as much weight to the front as you advise because
it will have a worse affect on steering than the way I do it. But then I'm just doing what I see
good pros doing all the time.

Quoted message said:

However, in your case, your steering was greatly reduced by your insistence on over-braking the
rear wheel and skidding. If you had slowed at the same deceleration rate but with more reliance
on the front brake (and less on the rear), your rear tire would not have skidded, and your
steering control would have been better.

Given the situation I was in, and given that a very good pro descender like Beloki did the same
thing, I'm fine with what I did.

Quoted message said:

A skidding tire has less traction than a non-skidding (rolling) tire. At the very least, when
you first sensed the rear wheel skidding, you should have let off a bit on the rear brake lever,

See, you have a poor understanding of what goes on in that brief moment when I'm trying to avoid
running in to the heads of two guys sliding in front of me who were the two riders right in front
me (no time to prepare), while I slow down as quick as I possibly could under the circumstances.
Neither of us even know exactly how much front brake I was using but I was still able to steer
around something important.

Quoted message said:

to stop the skidding and increase whatever tire traction was available - you would have stopped
faster. If you are such a good bike handler, why did you allow the rear tire to keep skidding?

Later you say it probably took me 40+ feet to slow down yet my rear rire lost only about 25% of
its tread. I don't think I was skidding very long.

Quoted message said:

So, if you choose to get half of your braking from the rear wheel, and I instead allow the front
wheel to take 90% of my weight, I will stop in a distance at least 20% shorter than you will.

But you will have much less reliable/nimble steering around whatever it is you're trying to avoid.

What happens if I have 90% of my weight on my front wheel and I hit a slick spot on the pavement
or a bump or a bike or body? I think it's usually better to have less than 90% if there's a chance
of hitting something.

Quoted message said:

If won't allow the front wheel to supply the majority of your braking, you simply can not
maximize braking.

Again, braking is not the only important concern.

Quoted message said:

Although she has made her biggest mark in downhill racing, Marla Streb races in a very wide
variety of events (road & off-road, bicycles & motorcycles). If you think she doesn't know how
to handle a bike on pavement, you are very wrong. And again, you seem to be claiming that expert
braking is only applicable to road racing.

Nope, just that the braking on the road is often very different from braking off road and the
opinion of a MTB racer is not particularly valuable when the obvious experience and technique of
good road pros is contrary to her method (according to you).

Quoted message said:

You seem to think that professional criterium racers know the best braking technique.

I didn't say that. I think it can be critically important at times (contrary to what you said
earlier) but I think maximum braking while trying to avoid something is common for a road
racer too.

Quoted message said:

"In steep straight descent on a mountain bike, put your weight far off the back of the saddle
and clamp on the front brake. Your rear brake is used, but you will skid if you brake hard. The
front brake is best for optimal control and stopping power on very steep descents like those
found on the Slickrock Trail in Moab, Utah."

The speed used there is a fraction of what happens in my case and the example provided by Beloki
and the gradient is much different too. The skill should be performed differently. I use my front
brake more when I'm on my MTB. Your use of MTB braking examples are another indication that you
lack an understanding of the important factors for the road, and for his racing Phinney always had
to use those mushy Dura-Ace brakes that had poor modulation.

You said:

Quoted message said:

>and I'm truly convinced that I'm a good bike racer, so I must be an expert bike handler, too.

I'm a better bike-handler than racer.

Says who? No evidence of that has yet been presented.

I know it. I was merely refuting your incorrect assumption about my opinion that one fact lead to
the other.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Therefore, despite my lack of understanding of the underlying physics, people should believe
>me when I explain how to brake,

Yes.

So now you are the self-declared expert. My, you truly are impressed with yourself.

Not THE expert and lots of guys are better at it than me but the majority of them also use both
brakes for road events for the reasons I've said, and the fact that I crash less often than the
average of my fellow racers, and am able to pass alot of people who are demonstrating less
accurate braking skills than me does indicate my skill level is good. And unlike you, I'm not
advocating something contrary to the examples you can see every night on OLN.

Next time I'll just jam on my front brake harder and I'll stop 20% sooner but I won't be able to
avoid hitting the first guy's head because some dope on the internet told me to put 90% of my
weight on my arms and I couldn't steer as well. "Sorry about the skull fracture but look, my rear
tire is still good!"

-WG

The theoretical computations are accurate. But I have to wonder if there isn't a lack of reliable
scientific data on its practical application. I think we know you can't go 100% front. But feelings
won't quantify 50%, 75% or 90% to the extent that anyone can reach a practical analysis where the
rubber meets the road.

warren said:

In article said:

warren said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Mark McMaster <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You seem to misunderstand the weight shift. Weight is shifted to the front wheel regardless of
which brake you use.

I know that, but I'm not interested in shifting as much weight to the front as you advise because
it will have a worse affect on steering than the way I do it.

What affect on steering do you expect from the weight shift? I think you'll find that weight
distribution has less effect on the ability to steer than you imagine. For example, the old high
wheeler bicycles steered just find with most of their weight on the front wheel. Watch a BMX
freestyle rider stand on the front axle pegs - they still steer just fine, too. (Here's an extreme
example of steering with a fully loaded front wheel: craigjones.comrecord stoppie.htmlOpen ↗)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, if you choose to get half of your braking from the rear wheel, and I instead allow the front
wheel to take 90% of my weight, I will stop in a distance at least 20% shorter than you will.

But you will have much less reliable/nimble steering around whatever it is you're trying to avoid.

Again, I suggest you actually try steering with the majority of weight on the front wheel before you
leap to such conclusions. You'll find it is more nimble than you imagine. For example, if you've
ever sprinted out of the saddle, standing directly over the pedals with your chest over the
handlebars, you've probably put about 75% of your weight on the front wheel. And yet racers do this
all the time in tight pack sprints, which also require nimble steering. In the more stable position
of being on the saddle (or at least with your legs clamping it) and your arms in a more braced
position, you can easily remain nimble with 80 or 90% of your weight on the front wheel.

Quoted message said:

What happens if I have 90% of my weight on my front wheel and I hit a slick spot on the pavement
or a bump or a bike or body? I think it's usually better to have less than 90% if there's a chance
of hitting something.

That's odd that you worry about such things, when you race a lot of criteriums. What if you leaned
way over in hard corner and you bump into someone or hit a slick patch? A rider with experience and
good technique will know how far they can push their traction, and how to react to the unexpected.
If you so timid about slick pavement or hitting someone, why do you race criteriums?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Although she has made her biggest mark in downhill racing, Marla Streb races in a very wide
variety of events (road & off-road, bicycles & motorcycles). If you think she doesn't know how to
handle a bike on pavement, you are very wrong. And again, you seem to be claiming that expert
braking is only applicable to road racing.

Nope, just that the braking on the road is often very different from braking off road and the
opinion of a MTB racer is not particularly valuable when the obvious experience and technique of
good road pros is contrary to her method (according to you).

You seem to boo-hoo a lot of good advice from many sources. Perhaps you open your eyes a little
more, you might actually learn something. And yes, offroad braking does have pertinence to road
braking - especially in light of the possibility of "slick spots" you seem to be so worried about.
There may be variations in technique, but the same basic principles apply - the laws of physics
don't suddenly change when you move from one surface to another.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm a better bike-handler than racer.

Says who? No evidence of that has yet been presented.

I know it.

Well, that certainly proves it - not. Your willful ignorance of several bike handling related
subjects seems to belie that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So now you are the self-declared expert. My, you truly are impressed with yourself.

Not THE expert and lots of guys are better at it than me but the majority of them also use both
brakes for road events for the reasons I've said, and the fact that I crash less often than the
average of my fellow racers, and am able to pass alot of people who are demonstrating less
accurate braking skills than me does indicate my skill level is good. And unlike you, I'm not
advocating something contrary to the examples you can see every night on OLN.

Next time I'll just jam on my front brake harder and I'll stop 20% sooner but I won't be able to
avoid hitting the first guy's head because some dope on the internet told me to put 90% of my
weight on my arms and I couldn't steer as well. "Sorry about the skull fracture but look, my rear
tire is still good!"

So, if I understand correctly, what the issue boils down to in your mind is not wanting to shift too
much weight onto the front wheel because it makes steering difficult. I don't know why you believe
that. A bicycle turns by counter steering and leaning, and front/rear weight distribution does
little to change that. Road bikes have no suspension, so their steering geometry does not change
with weight shift. It takes little torque to turn the front wheel (even at speed), and any
additional weight shifted onto the front wheel has no significant affect on that. After all, a
unicycle is highly nimble, even though it puts 100% of its weight on its front wheel. Racing
motorcycles don't seem to have any problem steering, even when they are braking so hard they are
practically doing a nose-wheelie.

I think you also overestimate the traction demands of braking. If you were to apply both brakes
equally until the rear tire skidded, you'd be at decelerating at a rate of about 0.3g - i.e. your
tires would have a traction force of about 30% of the rider/bicycle weight. If you cornered and
leaned over enough to hit a pedal on the ground (about a 35 deg. Lean angle), you'd have a lateral
force of about 0.6g, which requires about twice as much traction force as you could need with equal
front and rear braking. And yet racers seem to have no problem cornering at the angles and lateral
forces where they can't pedal for fear of hitting a pedal on the ground. On good pavement, a bike
can be cornered at up to about 1 g (45 degree lean angle). Even when you consider that the tires are
nearly equally weighted when cornering, that means each tire in a corner can support a traction
force equal to half the weight of the rider/bicycle. Braking, on the other hand, is limited by the
pitch over point, and the pitch over point is at about .5g, which is within the traction that is
demanded for cornering. But there is a key difference, and that is that under hard braking, the
forward weight shift increases the traction of the front tire, making it even less likely to skid
than in hard cornering. Since we have to brake at less than the pitch over point, hard braking with
primarily the front brake puts less traction demands on the tires than hard cornering. And since you
are such a good bike handler, I'm sure you have no problem with cornering traction, so you shouldn't
have problems with braking traction.

Since we're on the issue of traction and skidding: These are always an issue during all types of
riding over any surface. Surface conditions, speed and terrain contours all affect traction
available for cornering or braking, and a cyclists must be aware of these at all times, and adjust
their actions accordingly. However, it seems that your solution to these problems is to simply avoid
hard braking (and its reliance on the front brake) at all times, even when it is warranted. It seems
your fear of the front brake is preventing you from using it to its full effectiveness when
conditions allow. A better approach would be to learn appropriate technique for hard braking
situations, and therefore the proper use of the front brake, and practice it, so that you would have
those tools at your disposal when those situation when it is advantageous. Sure, excessive front
braking may cause problems in some situations; but there are many, if not more, situations where
problems can be avoided with judicious use of hard front braking. When that car pulls suddenly pulls
out in front of you, pulling hard on the front brake and loading up the front wheel may be
preferable to the alternative.

On a weekly ride I do, there is a steep (about 10% grade), somewhat curvy, half mile descent, which
ends at an intersection with a busy road (Waltham St., intersecting with Lexington St., in Woburn,
MA). Just coasting, it is easy to exceed 40 mph on this hill. I regularly let it fly to about 40-42
mph, and then brake hard in the last 150 feet around the last curve before the intersection. Trying
to use equal front and rear braking would result in rear wheel skidding (and loss of direction
control), so I use mostly front wheel braking. I have yet to skid the front wheel or go over the
handlebars.

By the way, while there are few bicycle riding instruction courses, there are many motorcycle riding
courses. I think you will agree there are similar concerns for motorcycle braking (skidding, pitch
over). None the less, Most of these course attempt to teach riders to let go of their fear of the
front brake. See:

motorcycle.comsafe3.htmlOpen ↗

geocities.comdrivingskills 1 1.htmOpen ↗

homepage.ntlworld.comAdvanced ridinOpen ↗
g/Braking/braking.html

nhtsa.dot.gov00 NHT 212 moOpen ↗
torcycle/motorcycle45-46.html

webbikeworld.combraking tips.htmOpen ↗

motorcyclesafety.orgtips braking.htmlOpen ↗

Mark McMaster [email hidden]

warren said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Mark McMaster <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Although she has made her biggest mark in downhill racing, Marla Streb races in a very wide
variety of events (road & off-road, bicycles & motorcycles). If you think she doesn't know how to
handle a bike on pavement, you are very wrong. And again, you seem to be claiming that expert
braking is only applicable to road racing.

Nope, just that the braking on the road is often very different from braking off road and the
opinion of a MTB racer is not particularly valuable when the obvious experience and technique of
good road pros is contrary to her method (according to you).

Quoted message said:

You seem to think that professional criterium racers know the best braking technique.

I didn't say that. I think it can be critically important at times (contrary to what you said
earlier) but I think maximum braking while trying to avoid something is common for a road
racer too.

Quoted message said:

Interestingly, despite his obvious bent to criteriums and road racing, Phinney's only example of a
situation with very hard braking is not in a criterium, or even on road race, but off-road on
slick rock:

"In steep straight descent on a mountain bike, put your weight far off the back of the saddle and
clamp on the front brake. Your rear brake is used, but you will skid if you brake hard. The front
brake is best for optimal control and stopping power on very steep descents like those found on
the Slickrock Trail in Moab, Utah."

The speed used there is a fraction of what happens in my case and the example provided by Beloki
and the gradient is much different too. The skill should be performed differently. I use my front
brake more when I'm on my MTB. Your use of MTB braking examples are another indication that you
lack an understanding of the important factors for the road, and for his racing Phinney always had
to use those mushy Dura-Ace brakes that had poor modulation.

Another observation:

Davis Phinney's book "Training For Cycling: The Ultimate Guide to Improved Performance", is entirely
about training, tactics and strategies for road racing. And yet, in his only example for hard
braking technique, he gives an example of an MTB on slick rock.

Apparently, Phinney, a highly successful road racing pro, believes that the above MTB braking
example is very pertinent to road cycling. And yet you, who claim to fully understand all there is
to know about pro racing technique, can't see that. Curious.

And that comment about Phinney's use of "those mushy Dura-Ace brakes" - a pure masterwork of
extrapolation.

I'm also curious why you use your front brake more on your MTB than your road bike, given that it
is far easier to skid a tire offroad than on road, or do an endo on a steep offroad descent than a
road descent (which seem to be your two biggest phobias). This is odd, since every other "expert"
says the opposite - that given the reduced traction available off-road, one should take a more
balance approach to braking on dirt. Your "expert" opinions seem to run counter to everyone else's
in both arenas.

But, I guess we'll have to take your word on braking technique, and not Phinney's or anyone else's.
After all, you're the expert. You told us so yourself.

Mark McMaster [email hidden]

In article said:

warren said:

In article said:

warren wrote:

>In article <[email hidden]>, Mark McMaster <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You seem to misunderstand the weight shift. Weight is shifted to the front wheel regardless of
which brake you use.

I know that, but I'm not interested in shifting as much weight to the front as you advise
because it will have a worse affect on steering than the way I do it.

What affect on steering do you expect from the weight shift? I think you'll find that weight
distribution has less effect on the ability to steer than you imagine.

(Snipped another irrelevant example, about 80 year old bikes...)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So, if you choose to get half of your braking from the rear wheel, and I instead allow the front
wheel to take 90% of my weight, I will stop in a distance at least 20% shorter than you will.

But you will have much less reliable/nimble steering around whatever it is you're trying to
avoid.

Again, I suggest you actually try steering with the majority of weight on the front wheel before
you leap to such conclusions. You'll find it is more nimble than you imagine.

Tonight during my warmup I did some testing.

While going down a 4-6% grade at about 12mph I applied about 50% (of what I could have applied with
full squeezing force) to the front brake only and I slowed down rapidly but my rear wheel came off
the ground about 1-2 inches.

For the next 3 attempts I applied about 50-60% force front brake only on a flat section starting at
about 21mph and I slowed down rapidly but I had to exert ALOT of pressure on the bars to keep from
getting pitched forward. It felt like something close to doing a push-up. During the second two of
these tests I tried to steer or move the bars a bit but it was almost impossible to do anything
useful with that much pressure on the bars.

Then I tried 2 tests with rear brake only at about 60-70% and it took longer to slow down but it was
pretty easy to continue steering.

Then I tried two tests on the flat and a very slight down grade with front and rear brakes, each at
about 50%. I slowed down pretty fast, was able to steer a little, and in one test my rear wheel did
some very brief (a few inches maybe), intermittent skids.

I tried two tests on a slight upgrade of about 2-5% with a bit more braking about 60% pressure on
each brake and I slowed down quickly but there was more pressure on my arms/bars and steering was a
little less possible.

Now, more than before I'm convinced not to apply more than about 50% pressure to my front brake and
use 50-60% pressure on the rear brake if I may need to steer around something while braking hard. If
I'm not worried about steering I think that something around 60% on the front and up to a
light/brief skid on the rear is optimal. The likely cost of too much front brake is far worse than
the likely cost of too much rear braking.

An 8 year old kid knows how to control a rear wheel skid as long as they're still able to steer with
their front wheel and I remember reading a long time ago something written by a pro criterium racer.
He said that about once or twice a year he'll need to skid the rear tire and gently lay the bike
down so he won't run into what ever he's trying to avoid and go head first over the bars.

As for your comment about sprinting out of the saddle with 75% weight on arms/front wheel... As you
may know I do ALOT of sprint training. That movement/body position (with slightly bent elbows and
arms about 80 degrees to the top tube) is not trying to resist being pitched forward (you'd better
have your arms almost straight for that and at a shallower angle than 80 degrees) and it's much
easier (compared to hard front braking) to keep your arms relatively relaxed during sprints.

This more relaxed upper body posture while sprinting helps allow for more nimble movements and
corrections. It's relatively easy to move your body or the bike around while in that position, and
even then most of the change will be to your body (side to side away from, or into someone to push
them off) while the bike stays about where it was (going straight ahead) or vice versa. This is not
the same as steering your wheels around something like an obstacle on the road while you have alot
of pressure on your arms trying to resist being pitched forward.

-WG (Hoping I don't have to steer around anyone at the Sr. District Match Sprints this Saturday...)

warren said:

Tonight during my warmup I did some testing.

While going down a 4-6% grade at about 12mph I applied about 50% (of what I could have applied
with full squeezing force) to the front brake only and I slowed down rapidly but my rear wheel
came off the ground about 1-2 inches.

And then you pitched over and broke your spine and now you are posting from hospital using a straw
in your mouth? No? What a miracle! Every expert knows that as soon as the rear wheel leaves the
ground the rider will spontaneously combust, unless of course the rear brake is on full.

Quoted message said:

For the next 3 attempts I applied about 50-60% force front brake only on a flat section starting
at about 21mph and I slowed down rapidly but I had to exert ALOT of pressure on the bars to keep
from getting pitched forward. It felt like something close to doing a push-up.

It's okay. Having raced 700+ criteriums at cat 3 and better you have a strong upper body.

Quoted message said:

During the second two of these tests I tried to steer or move the bars a bit but it was almost
impossible to do anything useful with that much pressure on the bars.

Do some more pushups.

Quoted message said:

Then I tried 2 tests with rear brake only at about 60-70% and it took longer to slow down but it
was pretty easy to continue steering.

So basically you just conceded that the original argument, which you opposed, is correct. Q.E.D.
Good game and thanks for playing. See you next Christmas.

Quoted message said:

Then I tried two tests on the flat and a very slight down grade with front and rear brakes, each
at about 50%. I slowed down pretty fast, was able to steer a little, and in one test my rear wheel
did some very brief (a few inches maybe), intermittent skids.

You were able to steer "a little"? Surely that level of control is not nearly nimble enough to avoid
the cyclist lying in the road ahead, on fire (because while he was crashing he used the front brake
only which made him combust spontaneously)?

Quoted message said:

I tried two tests on a slight upgrade of about 2-5% with a bit more braking about 60% pressure on
each brake and I slowed down quickly but there was more pressure on my arms/bars and steering was
a little less possible.

You might need to replace your headset if it makes it impossible to steer while you are braking.

Quoted message said:

Now, more than before I'm convinced not to apply more than about 50% pressure to my front brake
and use 50-60% pressure on the rear brake if I may need to steer around something while braking
hard. If I'm not worried about steering I think that something around 60% on the front and up to a
light/brief skid on the rear is optimal. The likely cost of too much front brake is far worse than
the likely cost of too much rear braking.

Except on 70 degree off-road descents on loose gravel, where traction is sufficient for braking by
sticking a branch in between the spokes of your front wheel.

Quoted message said:

An 8 year old kid knows how to control a rear wheel skid as long as they're still able to steer
with their front wheel

They haven't raced in any criteriums so they are irrelevant. (I will now proceed to unceremoniously
delete the rest of your paragraph without reading any useful information it may contain. (Though I'm
tempted to point out that a controlled crash isn't really a relevant form of safe braking.))

Quoted message said:

As for your comment about sprinting out of the saddle with 75% weight on arms/front wheel... As
you may know I do ALOT of sprint training.

Of course! Any professional criterium racer worth his weight in gold does.

Quoted message said:

That movement/body position (with slightly bent elbows and arms about 80 degrees to the top tube)
is not trying to resist being pitched forward (you'd better have your arms almost straight for
that and at a shallower angle than 80 degrees) and it's much easier (compared to hard front
braking) to keep your arms relatively relaxed during sprints.

So your headset is fine but your motor skills are suffering.

...

warren said:

Tonight during my warmup I did some testing.

While going down a 4-6% grade at about 12mph I applied about 50% (of what I could have applied
with full squeezing force) to the front brake only and I slowed down rapidly but my rear wheel
came off the ground about 1-2 inches.

For the next 3 attempts I applied about 50-60% force front brake only on a flat section starting
at about 21mph and I slowed down rapidly but I had to exert ALOT of pressure on the bars to keep
from getting pitched forward. It felt like something close to doing a push-up. During the second
two of these tests I tried to steer or move the bars a bit but it was almost impossible to do
anything useful with that much pressure on the bars.

Then I tried 2 tests with rear brake only at about 60-70% and it took longer to slow down but it
was pretty easy to continue steering.

Then I tried two tests on the flat and a very slight down grade with front and rear brakes, each
at about 50%. I slowed down pretty fast, was able to steer a little, and in one test my rear wheel
did some very brief (a few inches maybe), intermittent skids.

I tried two tests on a slight upgrade of about 2-5% with a bit more braking about 60% pressure on
each brake and I slowed down quickly but there was more pressure on my arms/bars and steering was
a little less possible.

Now, more than before I'm convinced not to apply more than about 50% pressure to my front brake
and use 50-60% pressure on the rear brake if I may need to steer around something while braking
hard. If I'm not worried about steering I think that something around 60% on the front and up to a
light/brief skid on the rear is optimal. The likely cost of too much front brake is far worse than
the likely cost of too much rear braking.

First a few of comments: As you saw, the front brake is capable of higher braking rates than the
rear. I'm sure you also recognize that the weight shift (requiring more arm force to oppose) was due
to the deceleration rate, and not to which brake was actually doing the braking. Although the rear
wheel skidded momentarily a few times using the rear brakes, even at the much higher deceleration
rates with the front brake, the front wheel didn't skid.

When braking hard and loading up the front wheel, it didn't actually take more steering torque to
turn the front wheel to steer. Instead it is a matter of muscle control, to coordinate the small
steering forces with the larger forces needed to oppose the forward shift. Just like a lot of other
riding skills, this is a skill that can be mastered with practice, and steering will become more
nimble and fluid.

Just as a quick illustration, imagine that you had foot pegs mounted to the rear dropouts (like on a
BMX freestyle bike), and that you stood on these wheel holding onto your handlebar drops. In this
position, it would be very literally like doing pushups on the handlebar. The overall front/rear
wheel weight distribution would be about the same as when riding normally, but you'd have far more
of your weight on your arms. As you can imagine, with that much weight on you arms, it would
initially be a bit more difficult to coordinate your steering motions (even when not braking).
However, with practice, you could learn to be quite nimble and maneuverable.

Still and all, it is good to develop the reflexes to be able to maneuver while applying hard
braking. It will add an additional tool that can be utilized when the conditions require it.

Of course, I'm not recommending that you slam on the brakes and load up the front wheel every time
you brake. Obviously it would not be recommend when riding in deep sand, or over washboard ruts. But
in those situations where it can be done and you really need it, it's nice to be able to pull hard
braking techniques out of your bag of bike handling tools.

Mark McMaster [email hidden]

In article said:

First a few of comments: As you saw, the front brake is capable of higher braking rates than the
rear. I'm sure you also recognize that the weight shift (requiring more arm force to oppose) was
due to the deceleration rate, and not to which brake was actually doing the braking. Although the
rear wheel skidded momentarily a few times using the rear brakes, even at the much higher
deceleration rates with the front brake, the front wheel didn't skid.

I think part of Beloki's problem may be that his front wheel hit that loose or slick patch of
pavement or granular stuff on top of the pavement with a "highly-loaded" front wheel, and the front
wheel slipped a little. He had alot of braking on both wheels but I think his steering problems are
what kept him from being able to skid his rear wheel to a controlled stop.

Quoted message said:

When braking hard and loading up the front wheel, it didn't actually take more steering torque to
turn the front wheel to steer. Instead it is a matter of muscle control, to coordinate the small
steering forces with the larger forces needed to oppose the forward shift. Just like a lot of
other riding skills, this is a skill that can be mastered with practice, and steering will become
more nimble and fluid.

I sincerely doubt that. When your arms are trying to oppose the weight shift the (arm) tension has
to be very high to do that. Steering (with arms. wrist, hands, hips) takes muscles that are as
relaxed as possible and that's along way from the situation where your arms have to provide
resistance to say, 70-90% of your bodyweight, especially if those correction have to happen very
fast and accurately. Remember, in my case the two guys directly in front of me created an obstacle
and that is not very much time or distance to make a correction.

I don't think the freestyle bike analogy works because the speeds (its influence on steering
corrections) and the dynamics of the weight shift are so different.

I also don't think the analogy of normal road turns and stopping down a steep hill are quite the
same because not only do you have alot longer to decide what you want to do, you have alot longer to
initiate the turn, and supple hands and arms are not as important for that type of turning while
braking hard.

-WG