Signalling?

While the book is American-centric, Effective Cycling by John Forester may give you some idea of
what skills, experience and equipment is needed to cycle with confidence.

"Elisa Francesca Roselli" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Okay, so about 2 weeks ago I started trying to ride on the road. Now I've graduated to doing
_most_ of the short (1.6 km) trip to work by bike, but I still don't feel at all "road safe".

One of my biggest current bugbears is signalling. I just CAN'T! If I take my hands off the
handlebars for so much as a blink, I lose control of the steering and start keeling over sideways.
Even just the concentration to shift gears or sound the bell perturbs me.

This has already caused problems at intersections. The other day I was turning left at a four-way
crossroad. I think the people behind me got the right idea insofar as I had moved to the left-most
side of my lane. But I was unsure what to do about the car oncoming opposite - it too was flashing
a signal that it was going to turn the same way as me. Fortuantly I got there first, otherwise we
could have slammed into eachother. I need to study the priority codes because I know there is an
order of priority for motorists in this situation. But it's such a Celtic knot that I kept getting
confused, even when I was sitting the exam for it. I know the default rule is priority to the
right but whose right when you're opposite eachother?

I've tried desperately jerking my head in the direction of the intended turn but I doubt that's
very visible and even that is rather dizzying.

Is there any special _knack_ to this signalling, or is it just a matter of having a really sure
seat on a bike? I know with coasting it was a matter of shifting consciousness from pedalling to
balancing. But I tried a number of times to lift a hand from the steering while practicing in the
parking lot yesterday and I can't get it at all.

Thanks for your patience, everyone. It's like at this stage, every little thing is a hurdle.

Elisa Roselli Paris, France

Again, mainly just a question of practice and confidence.

When I was a little kid, I would spend whole afternoons riding one hand, then the other, then no
hands (the latter a skill which I am relearning and finding difficult with my otherwise beloved blue
bike). "Look, ma--no hands!". Then there were wheelies, bunnyhops, curbsurfing, skids (one of the
great things about coaster brakes!), riding in construction sites (just before they poured
foundations was best), and bike tag!*

a fall then (and this was before helmets--that makes me feel older than I really am) wasn't a big
deal. Kids fall. You wince as your mother picks the gravel out of your knees and sulk for an
afternoon. Then you go back to playing bike-tag with the other neighbor kids.

I don't know. I guess the point is that eventually it will become something you don't even think
consciously about. A lot of wobbling is really just nerves--you get nervous, you get a deathgrip on
the bars, you wobble, you overcorrect, and suddenly you're in a massive feedback loop: wobble,
overcorrect, wobble more, get more scared, wobble, etc.... The only way through it is calm. And you
get calm by...riding your bike.

Don't worry. You're doing great--most new cyclists, particularly those who weren't childhood
cyclists, wouldn't even have the confidence to get out into the street. But I suggest some more
practicing in quiet places--carparks on Sundays, &c. Don't make it conscious, as in
"right-now-I-am-going-to-practice-riding-with-my-left-hand." Just ride your bike, get comfortable,
get confident, and do stuff a little at a time.

Be like a little kid; go out, have fun, don't worry about 'skills' or 'targets' or 'expectations.'
Those happen. But the main thing is just to be confident on the bike.

-Luigi

*Bike tag: the guy who's "it" rides around chasing everybody else, trying to buzz their rear tires
with his front one, which is a 'tag.' We used to play this a lot, and hardly ever crashed.

Quoted message said:

This has already caused problems at intersections. The other day I was turning left at a four-way
crossroad. I think the people behind me got the right idea insofar as I had moved to the left-most
side of my lane.

Well, signalling is a bit dicey for even experienced cyclists. You see when you are stopping and or
turning - it helps to have your hands on your bars so you can work the brakes. Also it is very tough
to do a constant turn signal whilst manuevering and I have seen very few cyclists do it. Of course,
I am in Florida and here in Florida if you signal, motorists seem to feel that you have relinquished
the right of way so very few people signal. You have the right idea, most of the time the motorists
get the right idea from your lane placement.

"Elisa Francesca Roselli" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Okay, so about 2 weeks ago I started trying to ride on the road. Now I've graduated to doing
_most_ of the short (1.6 km) trip to work by bike, but I still don't feel at all "road safe".

One of my biggest current bugbears is signalling. I just CAN'T! If I take my hands off the
handlebars for so much as a blink, I lose control of the steering and start keeling over sideways.
Even just the concentration to shift gears or sound the bell perturbs me.

It sounds like you have a death grip on the handlebars or you have too much weight on your hands.
When you let go with one to signal, you are over-steering with the other. Remember that rolling
bicycles don't need a whole lot of input to keep going straight. Once rolling, they will keep going
by themselves for quite a distance without a rider.

Ease yourself into trusting the bike. As a kid, this is what I did to learn how to ride without any
hands on the bars: as you are riding in a straight line in an empty parking lot (or other safe
place), try relaxing and lifting your palms off of the grips while keeping your fingers in contact
with the grips. Get to the point where you are only holding on by grasping with your fingertips much
the same way you would pick up a pencil that fell onto the floor. All of your weight will have to be
on your seat for this to work. Once you reach the point that you can hold on this way, letting go
with one hand should be fairly easy.

Have you ever seen someone herding cows or sheep? Being in the right place guides them along in the
right direction without having to touch the animals. It's much different from trying to walk a dog
that hasn't been properly trained. You can see their owners constantly yanking on the leash to get
the dog to move the right way. Riding a bicycle is more like herding or walking a trained dog. Small
inputs guide it along its path. Yanking on the handlebars just results in an unruly animal.

Good luck in your adventure....

-Buck

"Luigi de Guzman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:SqeOa.51483$G6.30648@lakeread04...

Quoted message said:

*Bike tag: the guy who's "it" rides around chasing everybody else, trying to buzz their rear tires
with his front one, which is a 'tag.' We used to play this a lot, and hardly ever crashed.

Good memories for me too. We also played a lot of "chicken," but it wasn't the variety where you run
headlong at each other to see who turns off first. We would mark boundaries on the street (usually
two expansion joints and the curbs) then everyone would ride around in circles trying to force each
other other to either put a foot down or ride outside of the boundaries. It did wonders for my
balancing skills. I can't wait to teach the game to my kids!

-Buck

Quoted message said:

One of my biggest current bugbears is signalling. I just CAN'T!

I could, but I won't.

The idea of taking a hand off of a handlebar when in close proximity to impatient, inattentive, or
sometimes downright agressive and hostile motorists isn't something I plan on trying out. Add in the
high number of people zipping around with a cell phone stuck on the sides of their heads, and
there's no way you'll get me to compromise my ability react to them as quickly as possible.

I'll wear a helmet, but I won't signal! 🙂

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Okay, so about 2 weeks ago I started trying to ride on the road. Now I've graduated to doing
_most_ of the short (1.6 km) trip to work by bike, but I still don't feel at all "road safe".

One of my biggest current bugbears is signalling. I just CAN'T! If I take my hands off the
handlebars for so much as a blink, I lose control of the steering and start keeling over sideways.
Even just the concentration to shift gears or sound the bell perturbs me.

This has already caused problems at intersections. The other day I was turning left at a four-way
crossroad. I think the people behind me got the right idea insofar as I had moved to the left-most
side of my lane. But I was unsure what to do about the car oncoming opposite - it too was flashing
a signal that it was going to turn the same way as me. Fortuantly I got there first, otherwise we
could have slammed into eachother. I need to study the priority codes because I know there is an
order of priority for motorists in this situation. But it's such a Celtic knot that I kept getting
confused, even when I was sitting the exam for it. I know the default rule is priority to the
right but whose right when you're opposite eachother?

I've tried desperately jerking my head in the direction of the intended turn but I doubt that's
very visible and even that is rather dizzying.

Is there any special _knack_ to this signalling, or is it just a matter of having a really sure
seat on a bike? I know with coasting it was a matter of shifting consciousness from pedalling to
balancing. But I tried a number of times to lift a hand from the steering while practicing in the
parking lot yesterday and I can't get it at all.

Thanks for your patience, everyone. It's like at this stage, every little thing is a hurdle.

Balancing one-handes is a lot easier if you have a little (but not too much) speed. It's tough to go
very slow one-handed. At that intersection, I'll bet that if you signal while you are stopped, and
then put both hands back on the bars when you start moving, you'll be ok.

--
Dave Kerber Fight spam: remove the ns_ from the return address before replying!

REAL programmers write self-modifying code.

Robert Oliver said:

The idea of taking a hand off of a handlebar when in close proximity to impatient, inattentive, or
sometimes downright agressive and hostile motorists isn't something I plan on trying out.

No signalling? Great idea. Be as unpredictable in your movements as possible. Keeping your
intentions a secret is a smart strategy in traffic.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA terrymorse.combikeOpen ↗

"Robert Oliver" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'll wear a helmet, but I won't signal! 🙂

how in hell do you make left turns?

if this isn't the best indicator of the utter inability of postmodern minds to deal with risk
assessments, I don't know what is.

-Luigi

Elisa Francesca Roselli said:

One of my biggest current bugbears is signalling. I just CAN'T!

You need to be able to do this. It takes a bit of practice, but can be learned. It is a serious
safety issue. Signalling is really not an option (though it sometimes says so in the laws, since
there are times when a cyclist needs both hands). At that intersection you described, you were more
or less stationary, right? Get off the bike to signal if you have to, but don't make drivers guess.

Quoted message said:

Is there any special _knack_ to this signalling, or is it just a matter of having a really sure
seat on a bike? I know with coasting it was a matter of shifting consciousness from pedalling to
balancing. But I tried a number of times to lift a hand from the steering while practicing in the
parking lot yesterday and I can't get it at all.

Keep working on it.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not _`\(,_ | certain, and as
far as they are certain, they do not refer to (_)/ (_) | reality. -- Albert Einstein

Robert Oliver said:

Quoted message said:

One of my biggest current bugbears is signalling. I just CAN'T!

I could, but I won't.

The idea of taking a hand off of a handlebar when in close proximity to impatient, inattentive, or
sometimes downright agressive and hostile motorists isn't something I plan on trying out. Add in
the high number of people zipping around with a cell phone stuck on the sides of their heads, and
there's no way you'll get me to compromise my ability react to them as quickly as possible.

Personally, I signal when I see another person on the street that might benefit from knowing I'm
going to turn off. Say, a car/bike wants to turn onto my road, where I would have priority over him
-- but I'm turning off into the road he's coming out of. If there's no particular reason for me to
be worried at that point, I'll signal that I'm turning off, fellow road user knows his way is clear,
I save him three seconds and let him know that I care about him and am not purely selfabsorbed.
'Course, the equation changes if I'm being passed by a bus or a truck at the time, when I really
don't want to take my hand off.

Jasper

"Elisa Francesca Roselli" wrote

Quoted message said:

Okay, so about 2 weeks ago I started trying to ride on the road. Now I've graduated to doing
_most_ of the short (1.6 km) trip to work by bike, but I still don't feel at all "road safe".

One of my biggest current bugbears is signalling. I just CAN'T! If I take my hands off the
handlebars for so much as a blink, I lose control of the steering and start keeling over sideways.
Even just the concentration to shift gears or sound the bell perturbs me.

Is there a city park or quiet rural road somewhere near your home where you can ride for a few
kilometers at a time without being disturbed by too many cars? It really sounds like you need to
spend more time just getting comfortable with the mechanics of riding a bicycle without trying to
deal with automobile traffic. After you've put in a few more miles/kilometers in a relatively
tranquil setting you can start trying to deal with signalling, riding up and down steep hills,
passing and being passed by cars, etc. Even if you have to take the train or Metro to get to a
suitable place, I think it would be worth your while. Parking lots are an OK place to practice, but
it really sounds like you need to ride many miles on level ground, undisturbed by cars and other
distractions.
--
mark

"Robert Oliver" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One of my biggest current bugbears is signalling. I just CAN'T!

I could, but I won't.

The idea of taking a hand off of a handlebar when in close proximity to impatient, inattentive, or
sometimes downright agressive and hostile motorists isn't something I plan on trying out. Add in
the high number of people zipping around with a cell phone stuck on the sides of their heads, and
there's no way you'll get me to compromise my ability react to them as quickly as possible.

I'll wear a helmet, but I won't signal! 🙂

You poor thing! It's something you really ought to conquer (like all irrational fears).

--
Robin Hubert <[email hidden]

I'm still working on the signalling, especially the suggestion of trying to lighten up my hold on
the handlebars over some safe transits to the point of being able to let go of them. I'm nowhere
near letting go, but the analysis is proving useful.

I am heaviest on the handlebars when coasting, as the downhill tilt throws me forward. Overall, I
realize that much of my weight _is thrown forward onto the handlebars if I try to keep my ass in
place on the seat. To the point that I get sore arms and carpal tunnel symptoms when I've been
riding for a while. When today I tried coasting with minimal pressure on the bars, putting more of
my weight on my rump, I had that very disagreeable sensation of hanging on my soft parts, impaled
by the seat.

Given that the height of the seat is regulated in relation to the pedals, is it possible that the
handlebar is too low in relation to the seat, forcing that forward-thrown, tushy-in-the-air posture?
I should mention that my bike is a city or "Dutch" type with an upright handlebar, so in principle
there is no justification for a crouching posture. On the other hand, perhaps all bikes thrown you
forward, and it's a matter of getting used to it? Another possibly involved parameter is the
distance between the seat and the handlebars - perhaps the seat is too far back, causing a forward
lunge into a void to hold the bars?

Any guidelines on handlebar height and if and how it should be adjusted? I don't see one of those
quick release pins on the bars as for the seat, and there is the complication of the shopping basket
in the front.

Elisa Roselli Paris, France

Jeremy Parker said:

Elisa pointed out herself, when she was turning left, that her postition in the road indicated
that she was about to turn. The question is, how did she get to that position. I hope she looked
before moving from the edge of the road to the middle.

No, I can no more hold my balance while looking behind me than I can lift a hand off the bars. I
have ordered one of those Third Eye helmet-mounted mirrors on the Internet and am waiting for it to
arrive. I look, and signal vigorously, whenever I am stationary. Traffic light halts are useful for
this. For the rest, I ride the middle of my lane, not the edge (unless I'm planning to turn right),
so moving is a matter of middle to left rather than right to middle.

Quoted message said:

I would recommend a book, long out of print, but perhaps a Parisian library might have it: Jaques
Faizant, "Albina et la bicyclette", Calmann-Levy press, 1968. It's all about the joys of cycle
touring exemplified by Albina, American grad' student living in Paris, as she discovers it.
Learning to ride. no hands, in the bois de Boulogne, was about her lesson 2.

I'll check out Albina. But I doubt she'd have chosen the Bois de Boulogne

hookers. While I have no objection to these, I strongly prefer to avoid their customers.

Elisa Roselli Paris, France

"Elisa Francesca Roselli" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I'm still working on the signalling, especially the suggestion of trying

to

Quoted message said:

lighten up my hold on the handlebars over some safe transits to the point

of

Quoted message said:

being able to let go of them. I'm nowhere near letting go, but the

analysis

Quoted message said:

is proving useful.

I am heaviest on the handlebars when coasting, as the downhill tilt throws me forward. Overall, I
realize that much of my weight _is thrown forward onto the handlebars if I try to keep my ass in
place on the seat. To the point that I get sore arms and carpal tunnel symptoms when I've been

riding

Quoted message said:

for a while. When today I tried coasting with minimal pressure on the

bars,

Quoted message said:

putting more of my weight on my rump, I had that very disagreeable

sensation

Quoted message said:

of hanging on my soft parts, impaled by the seat.

Given that the height of the seat is regulated in relation to the pedals,

is

Quoted message said:

it possible that the handlebar is too low in relation to the seat, forcing that forward-thrown,
tushy-in-the-air posture? I should mention that my

bike

Quoted message said:

is a city or "Dutch" type with an upright handlebar, so in principle there is no justification for
a crouching posture. On the other hand, perhaps

all

Quoted message said:

bikes thrown you forward, and it's a matter of getting used to it? Another possibly involved
parameter is the distance between the seat and the handlebars - perhaps the seat is too far back,
causing a forward lunge

into

Quoted message said:

a void to hold the bars?

Any guidelines on handlebar height and if and how it should be adjusted? I don't see one of those
quick release pins on the bars as for the seat, and there is the complication of the shopping
basket in the front.

You have a lot of concerns, so bear with me as I try to address them all. Your weight will
definitely be more forward going downhill, but on the streets it should never be uncomfortably so.
Off-road, we often get waaay off the back of the seat to keep from being pitched too far forward.
From your desriptions, it sounds like you would benefit from raising the handlebars a bit. Most city
bikes are designed to have the majority of your weight carried by the saddle. It is not surprising
that you find this uncomfortable. You may need to adjust the saddle position a bit to keep it from
squishing your soft parts. If you can't find a good compromise, you may need a different saddle.

You probably have a "quill" stem on your bike. This is the part that comes up from the fork and
holds your handlebars in place. These stems usually have a bolt on top. If you loosen that bolt,
you should be able to move the stem up or down to get the right handlebar height. Keep in mind that
it will also rotate, so be cautious about getting it pointed straight forward again. There should
also be a "minimum insertion" line on the side. Make sure you do not raise the stem any higher than
that line.

Weight distribution on your bike is a dynamic entity. As you lean farther forward, your weight
shifts from your butt and feet to your hands. This does put you in a more aerodynamic position and
it increases the traction on your front tire. But city bikes aren't really made for this position.
If your seat is in the right spot, then your handlebars may be too low or the bike may be a bit too
big for your. You can make corrections by raising the stem, but you may have to buy a shorter (from
front to back) stem to get into a more comfortable position.

A third and final option is to go out and buy a new bike. You are already talking about spending
several hours a day on it, so it should be fit to you properly so it provides the greatest
performance and comfort. A good shop can fit you properly.

I am very partial to this last idea for you. You may find that many of the difficulties you are
having are a direct result of a poorly-fitting bicycle. My first bike was way too big and it could
be terrifying at times just because I was too small to handle it properly. Fit is paramount, but
having the right bike for your type of riding is important as well. I would never consider using my
old Scwinn Panther (a classic cruiser bike from the sixties) as a commuter. The riding position is
all wrong for riding any distances.

Keep us informed of your progress. It's been great fun so far.

-Buck

Thanks for this thorough analysis. I will address raising the handlebars when I have a little
time over this long weekend. There is indeed a hexagonal ring bolt which may move when I get a
suitably sized key around it. I can also get the seat forward a little, as it's on a sliding
track with a bolt.

I don't think it's time yet to think of getting a new bike as the current one, just a year old, is
only now beginning to reveal its mysteries and possibilities. I'm too ignorant and inexperienced to
be able to judge a great bike just yet. Until I know how to adjust everything and what can be
adjusted and what the effects of adjustment are, I'm not qualified to call Myrtille a bad fit. I
have no reason to suspect that she's too big for me as I am a tall (5' 8"😉 and large-framed American
woman and Myrtille is a French lady's bike. Also, my job hasn't moved yet and may even decide not to
move, so for the moment the several hours of commuting a day are a possibility which I must envision
and prepare for, but by no means a certainty. Currently my trip to work is only 1.6 km and takes 10
minutes of road time.

I am planning a vacation in Cambridge, UK towards the end of July. Since this will take me away from
Myrtille and my beloved bike practise, I'm thinking of hiring a bike while I'm there, so I can
continue practising on the famous Backs. (Cambridge as a city is entirely configured to bike traffic
and it's a bit of an irony that I didn't learn in the 13 years that I lived there!) That will also
be an opportunity to try other kinds of bikes. The person I'm staying with has a Moulton, too, which
I'm curious to try.

Elisa Roselli Paris, France

Buck said:

A third and final option is to go out and buy a new bike. You are already talking about spending
several hours a day on it, so it should be fit to you properly so it provides the greatest
performance and comfort. A good shop can fit you properly.

I am very partial to this last idea for you. You may find that many of the difficulties you are
having are a direct result of a poorly-fitting bicycle. My first bike was way too big and it could
be terrifying at times just because I was too small to handle it properly. Fit is paramount, but
having the right bike for your type of riding is important as well. I would never consider using
my old Scwinn Panther (a classic cruiser bike from the sixties) as a commuter. The riding position
is all wrong for riding any distances.

Quoted message said:

I am planning a vacation in Cambridge, UK towards the end of July. Since

this

Quoted message said:

will take me away from Myrtille and my beloved bike practise, I'm thinking

of

Quoted message said:

hiring a bike while I'm there, so I can continue practising on the famous

Backs.

Quoted message said:

(Cambridge as a city is entirely configured to bike traffic and it's a bit

of an

Quoted message said:

irony that I didn't learn in the 13 years that I lived there!) That will

also be

Quoted message said:

an opportunity to try other kinds of bikes. The person I'm staying with

has a

Quoted message said:

Moulton, too, which I'm curious to try.

Cambridge isn't so much as entirely configured to bike traffic as it's a town where the bicycle
dominates the existing facilities to the same degree as motorized traffic dominates elsewhere....

I always found the Backs to be a bit of an unnerving place to ride, personally. I wasn't as
confident back then, and Queens' Road was the only place in Cambridge, it seems, that anybody was
allowed to develop any real speed, and so all the cars would gun it through that stretch

I've since gone back, with more miles under me and I've been a lot less fazed by the whole
experience, so maybe i was just more jittery then.

Goodness, we might even see each other in Cambridge--I'll probably be up reading at the UL for a
bit. I'll roll Bekah (my much-maligned pink and black MBK, the London bike) onto the train at
KingsX. How's that for multimodal transportation strategy...?

-Luigi

Luigi de Guzman said:

Goodness, we might even see each other in Cambridge--I'll probably be up reading at the UL for a
bit. I'll roll Bekah (my much-maligned pink and black MBK, the London bike) onto the train at
KingsX. How's that for multimodal transportation strategy...?

Hey cool, another Cantabridgian! I'm King's, History Tripos, BA 1978 MA 1982. I'll certainly be
visiting the UL, although this year I have no specific research projects. My notion of an ideal
summer hol is Cambridge for a writing project with time in the UL and buying books. Also I like to
cook for the person I'm staying with. Sure, I'm a nerd - I know most people wouldn't consider that a
holiday at all, LOL!

As for multimodal, I was recently really pleased to notice that in Paris the RER, the suburban
milk-train, takes cycles in the first and last wagon of every train - there's even a picture of a
bicycle on them!

Quoted message said:

I always found the Backs to be a bit of an unnerving place to ride, personally. I wasn't as
confident back then, and Queens' Road was the only place in Cambridge, it seems, that anybody was
allowed to develop any real speed, and so all the cars would gun it through that stretch

Actually I meant on that broad grassy sidewalk behind [censored] Hall and Clare - I'd be spooked by the
actual road. Or perhaps Jesus Green then. It'll be on the way between home and the Town Centre. I've
always walked it previously and it seemed to go on for miles and miles. I suppose it will look
really short on a cycle!

Cheers,

Elisa Roselli Paris, France