Hydrate or Die... or

Quoted message said:

Here's a perspective that took a while to surface:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/14/opinion/14thu2.html?

I recall one long, hot, humid ride when I was religiously drinking
water, but feeling absolutely terrible. My stomach felt full and
sloshy, but I still felt thirsty; and yet water tasted terrible.

I stopped at a fast food joint and got some salt packets. It was
somehow what I needed. After that experience, I began carrying some of
those packets in my bike bag, and adding one or two to a water bottle.

Later, someone told me that salt substitute is a better choice, because
it contains a better balance of sodium and potassium. You can get it
at any pharmacy. That's my fix for long hot rides these days.

That and V-8 Juice.

- Frank Krygowski

Quoted message said:

Later, someone told me that salt substitute is a better choice, because
it contains a better balance of sodium and potassium. You can get it
at any pharmacy. That's my fix for long hot rides these days.

The answer to low sodium is to replace the sodium. At least some of
the salt replacements, such as NoSalt and NuSalt, contain no sodium.
All of them contain mostly potasium salts. Potasium loss during
exercise has never been shown to be a problem. Although unlikely, it
is possible to kill yourself by taking too much oral potasium. For a
humorous yet factual take on the last point see:

http://www.macrobiotic.org/SaltSubDanger.htm

Jim Smith said:

The answer to low sodium is to replace the sodium. At least some of
the salt replacements, such as NoSalt and NuSalt, contain no sodium.
All of them contain mostly potasium salts. Potasium loss during
exercise has never been shown to be a problem.

Well, potassium loss can contribute to muscle cramps:
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09355.html

Although unlikely, it

Quoted message said:

is possible to kill yourself by taking too much oral potasium. For a
humorous yet factual take on the last point see:

http://www.macrobiotic.org/SaltSubDanger.htm

Yup- and that's why potassium-containing IV's in hospitals are supposed
to be marked in a distinctive fashion, and full-strength IV potassium
chloride is kept away from the ER. Otherwise, bad stuff happens:
http://www.iatrogenic.org/fatalerr.html

Jeff

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Here's a perspective that took a while to surface:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/14/opinion/14thu2.html?

I recall one long, hot, humid ride when I was religiously drinking
water, but feeling absolutely terrible. My stomach felt full and
sloshy, but I still felt thirsty; and yet water tasted terrible.

I stopped at a fast food joint and got some salt packets. It was
somehow what I needed. After that experience, I began carrying some
of those packets in my bike bag, and adding one or two to a water
bottle.

Later, someone told me that salt substitute is a better choice,
because it contains a better balance of sodium and potassium. You
can get it at any pharmacy. That's my fix for long hot rides these
days.

That and V-8 Juice.

I'm a V-8 drinker too. Call me un-American, but I hate soft drinks, and most
"juice" drinks aren't much better. V-8 is the only thing I'll drink that's
available in most convenience stores. It seems to do the trick with salt
depletion too.

Last year we had Hammergel as a sponsor for our big club ride. We got free
samples of their electrolyte capsules. As a believer in real food vs.
artificial yuppie power food, I had never tried such a thing. It sat around for
months, but I tried it one day when I was feeling really bad. Well, the stuff
is like magic. I felt much better, instantly. So I bought some more. I use it
occasionally when I feel sick or overtired. It's great stuff. I recommend it.

Matt O.

JeffWills said:

Well, potassium loss can contribute to muscle cramps:
http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/foodnut/09355.html

For sure low potassium can cause all sorts of problems, ranging from
weakness and cramps all the way to heart problems, death, and attempts
to overrule the separation of the legeslative and judicial branches.
What is not clear is wheather or not it has anything to do with
cramping during exercise, and if it does, whether or not
suplementation during exercise will help or not.

Jim Smith said:

Quoted message said:

Later, someone told me that salt substitute is a better choice,

because

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it contains a better balance of sodium and potassium. You can get

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

at any pharmacy. That's my fix for long hot rides these days.

The answer to low sodium is to replace the sodium. At least some of
the salt replacements, such as NoSalt and NuSalt, contain no sodium.
All of them contain mostly potasium salts.

Hmm. Well, the one I've been using is "Cardia Salt" and it's
ingredients as listed are "Salt, Potassium chloride, Magnesium Sulfate,
L-Lysine Hydrochloride, Silicon Dioxide" - which would be listed in
order of decreasing content.

Potasium loss during

Quoted message said:

exercise has never been shown to be a problem. Although unlikely, it
is possible to kill yourself by taking too much oral potasium.

Well, that hasn't happened to me yet! ;-) But I'm not taking in much
of this at all. A few shakes into a large water bottle, and that only
on long hot rides.

Again, I tried this (as opposed to plain salt) based on what I heard
from a friend - and he certainly could be wrong. OTOH, it seems to me
that I've read that dropping potassium levels can be a problem under
those conditions. I know that on long hot rides, I develop a craving
for orange juice, and I was told that's possibly related to potassium
loss.

I'd be curious what others know about this.

- Frank Krygowski

Lat tmonth, when I went to buy some Potassium tablets (use them
occasionally on loooong rides for cramps and 'salt' replacement) - the
consulting naturopath (who happened to be at the pharmacy at the time),
asked me what they were for.

When I told her, she told me to buy magnesium tablets instead. She said
that all the research was showing that potassium had litle/no effect on
cramps, and that magnesium was proving to be the main culprit.

Took her advice and gave it a go. And am having much greater results!!
I suspect that this type of thing is very individual, but reckon that
its worth a shot for those not getting good results from there
potassium tablets (or whatever you're using)

Cheers,
Absent Husband

Quoted message said:

Jim Smith said:

Quoted message said:

Later, someone told me that salt substitute is a better choice,

because

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it contains a better balance of sodium and potassium. You can get

it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

at any pharmacy. That's my fix for long hot rides these days.

The answer to low sodium is to replace the sodium. At least some of
the salt replacements, such as NoSalt and NuSalt, contain no sodium.
All of them contain mostly potasium salts.

Hmm. Well, the one I've been using is "Cardia Salt" and it's
ingredients as listed are "Salt, Potassium chloride, Magnesium Sulfate,
L-Lysine Hydrochloride, Silicon Dioxide" - which would be listed in
order of decreasing content.

Hmm, looks like that one has about 2.5 times as much sodium as
potasium (47 vs 18 meq per teaspoon), so I was wrong about all of them
being mostly potassium. With that touch of magnesium too, it looks
like a reasonable substance to use if one was interested in
experimenting with replacing electrolytes. Important to read those
labels.

Absent Husband wrote:
:: Lat tmonth, when I went to buy some Potassium tablets (use them
:: occasionally on loooong rides for cramps and 'salt' replacement) -
:: the consulting naturopath (who happened to be at the pharmacy at the
:: time), asked me what they were for.
::
:: When I told her, she told me to buy magnesium tablets instead. She
:: said that all the research was showing that potassium had litle/no
:: effect on cramps, and that magnesium was proving to be the main
:: culprit.
::
:: Took her advice and gave it a go. And am having much greater
:: results!! I suspect that this type of thing is very individual, but
:: reckon that its worth a shot for those not getting good results from
:: there potassium tablets (or whatever you're using)

Thanks for the info....I had big problems with cramps on two rides last year
and ended up in the sag wagon. So, I'm going to try the magnesium this
time.

Matt O'Toole said:

I'm a V-8 drinker too. Call me un-American, but I hate soft drinks,

and most

Quoted message said:

"juice" drinks aren't much better. V-8 is the only thing I'll drink

that's

Quoted message said:

available in most convenience stores. It seems to do the trick with

salt

Quoted message said:

depletion too.

V-8 is the distance rider's resuscitation drink. It's probably the
highest saline solution that's drinkable (subjective). A salt-rich meal
might be: V-8, doritos and a turkey sandwich (turkey is also loaded
with potassium, although potassium depletion isn't an issue). Fast food
french fries are also a great source of salt (& potassium) but most
can't tolerate the grease when riding hard.

Quoted message said:

Last year we had Hammergel as a sponsor for our big club ride. We

got free

Quoted message said:

samples of their electrolyte capsules. As a believer in real food

vs.

Quoted message said:

artificial yuppie power food, I had never tried such a thing. It sat

around for

Quoted message said:

months, but I tried it one day when I was feeling really bad. Well,

the stuff

Quoted message said:

is like magic. I felt much better, instantly. So I bought some

more. I use it

Quoted message said:

occasionally when I feel sick or overtired. It's great stuff. I

recommend it.

Their listed ingredients don't sound too magical. I just make up my own
capsules 2/3 table salt, 1/3 bicarb. I've found that salt depletion
isn't a problem until after 8-10 hr or so of hot, hard riding, an
observation that squares with the theory given the amount of sodium
reserves and sweat loss rate. The ingredients for Hammergel
Electrolytes:

Sodium Chloride 100 mg.
Calcium (Chelate) 50 mg.
Magnesium (Chelate) 25 mg.
Potassium (Chelate) 25 mg.
Vitamin B-6 (Pyrodoxine HCL) 6.6 mg.
Manganese (Chelate) 1.6 mg.
L-Tyrosine 50 mg.

Has anyone tried the Gu/20 Sports mixes for hydration?
http://www.gusports.com/html/gu2o.htm
-tom

Peter Cole said:

V-8 is the distance rider's resuscitation drink. It's probably the
highest saline solution that's drinkable (subjective). A salt-rich

meal

Quoted message said:

might be: V-8, doritos and a turkey sandwich (turkey is also loaded
with potassium, although potassium depletion isn't an issue). Fast

food

Quoted message said:

french fries are also a great source of salt (& potassium) but most
can't tolerate the grease when riding hard.

What's interesting to me is that my cravings during hot, humid, hard
rides seem to be sodium and potassium foods. I didn't know french
fries had any potassium, but I know they taste wonderful to me in those
conditions.

How about Pringles potato chips? That's something else that I seem to
crave. And beer, of course. And, as mentioned, orange juice with salt
mixed into it.

While we're at it, I wonder what foods are rich in magnesium. I'd be
interested to know if I crave those.

Yeah, I could go googling, but I'm hoping others have the knowledge at
hand.

- Frank Krygowski

Jim Smith said:

Quoted message said:

Later, someone told me that salt substitute is a better choice, because
it contains a better balance of sodium and potassium. You can get it
at any pharmacy. That's my fix for long hot rides these days.

The answer to low sodium is to replace the sodium. At least some of
the salt replacements, such as NoSalt and NuSalt, contain no sodium.
All of them contain mostly potasium salts. Potasium loss during
exercise has never been shown to be a problem. Although unlikely, it
is possible to kill yourself by taking too much oral potasium. For a
humorous yet factual take on the last point see:

http://www.macrobiotic.org/SaltSubDanger.htm

Fact: Potassium loss can kill you, since it plays a part in regulating
the heartbeat. Sodium is also needed, although not in the huge
quantities that the average American takes in. One Chinese take out
(MSG) or McBurger Fries with salt will top the daily requirement. Almost
any canned food (Campbells' soup comes to mind) will top you daily
allotment of sodium. I avoid Sodium, even on long sweaty rides, drinking
Orange Juice instead and the only thing I have ever noticed after a day
of climbing in 100F heat was low blood pressure (80/50), normal for a
child but not for an adult. After just chilling in the A/C indoors it
went back to about 110/70. The only noticeable side effect was right
after riding I could not sit down and then jump up again without nearly
fainting.
Side note: A woman killed her baby a few years back with the best of
intentions at heart by feeding the infant a low to no sodium diet and
substituting potassium instead. The electrolyte imbalance killed the kid.
Bill Baka

Matt O'Toole said:

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Here's a perspective that took a while to surface:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/14/opinion/14thu2.html?

I recall one long, hot, humid ride when I was religiously drinking
water, but feeling absolutely terrible. My stomach felt full and
sloshy, but I still felt thirsty; and yet water tasted terrible.

I stopped at a fast food joint and got some salt packets. It was
somehow what I needed. After that experience, I began carrying some
of those packets in my bike bag, and adding one or two to a water
bottle.

Later, someone told me that salt substitute is a better choice,
because it contains a better balance of sodium and potassium. You
can get it at any pharmacy. That's my fix for long hot rides these
days.

That and V-8 Juice.

I'm a V-8 drinker too. Call me un-American, but I hate soft drinks, and most
"juice" drinks aren't much better. V-8 is the only thing I'll drink that's
available in most convenience stores. It seems to do the trick with salt
depletion too.

Last year we had Hammergel as a sponsor for our big club ride. We got free
samples of their electrolyte capsules. As a believer in real food vs.
artificial yuppie power food, I had never tried such a thing. It sat around for
months, but I tried it one day when I was feeling really bad. Well, the stuff
is like magic. I felt much better, instantly. So I bought some more. I use it
occasionally when I feel sick or overtired. It's great stuff. I recommend it.

Matt O.

My opinion is that V-8 beats the heck out of Gatorade for both nutrients
and taste. Gatorade is just a way overhyped mix or Sodium and Potassium
with some sugar thrown in for energy.
Bill Baka

Absent Husband said:

Lat tmonth, when I went to buy some Potassium tablets (use them
occasionally on loooong rides for cramps and 'salt' replacement) - the
consulting naturopath (who happened to be at the pharmacy at the time),
asked me what they were for.

When I told her, she told me to buy magnesium tablets instead. She said
that all the research was showing that potassium had litle/no effect on
cramps, and that magnesium was proving to be the main culprit.

Took her advice and gave it a go. And am having much greater results!!
I suspect that this type of thing is very individual, but reckon that
its worth a shot for those not getting good results from there
potassium tablets (or whatever you're using)

Cheers,
Absent Husband

What he didn't tell you is that you still need the Potassium for heart
and muscle regulation. You can die from lack of Potassium, usually from
a heart attack. I don't know if coroners look for this but it is a well
known fact that doctor who prescribe diuretics for their patients with
high blood pressure also tell them to take Potassium supplements.
Bill Baka

Absent Husband said:

Lat tmonth, when I went to buy some Potassium tablets (use them
occasionally on loooong rides for cramps and 'salt' replacement) - the
consulting naturopath (who happened to be at the pharmacy at the time),
asked me what they were for.

When I told her, she told me to buy magnesium tablets instead. She said
that all the research was showing that potassium had litle/no effect on
cramps, and that magnesium was proving to be the main culprit.

Took her advice and gave it a go. And am having much greater results!!
I suspect that this type of thing is very individual, but reckon that
its worth a shot for those not getting good results from there
potassium tablets (or whatever you're using)

A good idea is to bave a basic blood test done, have them check mineral
levels, some people have lower levels of one or another. If one is low,
or maybe a low normal, then you might want to suppliment that when
riding, your doctor can tell you whether it's better to take a
suppliment before, during or after a ride.

If your *really* concerned about during rides, tell your doctor, maybe
get a blood draw done, go ride a century, then stop back at the lab, for
another blood draw, then run the mineral panel on both, you and your
doctor can then look at both sets of values and determine what (if
anything) you need, and how much.

W

bbaka said:

Absent Husband said:

Lat tmonth, when I went to buy some Potassium tablets (use them
occasionally on loooong rides for cramps and 'salt' replacement) - the
consulting naturopath (who happened to be at the pharmacy at the time),
asked me what they were for.
When I told her, she told me to buy magnesium tablets instead. She
said
that all the research was showing that potassium had litle/no effect on
cramps, and that magnesium was proving to be the main culprit.
Took her advice and gave it a go. And am having much greater
results!!
I suspect that this type of thing is very individual, but reckon that
its worth a shot for those not getting good results from there
potassium tablets (or whatever you're using)
Cheers,
Absent Husband

What he didn't tell you is that you still need the Potassium for heart
and muscle regulation. You can die from lack of Potassium, usually
from a heart attack.

The thing is, you just don't lose that much potasium in your
sweat. Sodium losses are about 20 times the potasium losses. Partly
this is because 98% of your potasium is inside of cells. On the other
hand, about 90% of your sodium is outside of the cells. This is true
of all lifeforms on earth.

One consequense of potasium being intracellular is that any time you
eat food composed of cells you are getting potasium. This includes
any fruits, vegetables, or muscles you eat. It is not hard at all to
get plenty of potasium in your diet.

People who get their potasium down low enough to have symptoms almost
always have something else going on, such as diuretic use, prolonged
diarrhea or vommiting, certain types of kidney disease, etc.

The situation with sodium is different because the regulation of
sodium and water are intimately connected. It is easy to affect
sodium concentration by adjusting water intake.

Quoted message said:

I don't know if coroners look for this but it is
a well known fact that doctor who prescribe diuretics for their
patients with high blood pressure also tell them to take Potassium
supplements.

Pretty much if you come within ten feet of a hospital you are going to
get your potassium checked. (It's cheap too.) Some characteristic
stuff happens when potassium gets really low, a death would be hard to
miss.

You are correct, certain diuretics are the most common cause of low
potassium, but that has nothing to do with a healthy person
exercising.

JeffWills said:

Yup- and that's why potassium-containing IV's in hospitals are supposed
to be marked in a distinctive fashion, and full-strength IV potassium
chloride is kept away from the ER. Otherwise, bad stuff happens:
http://www.iatrogenic.org/fatalerr.html

Jeff

It's a big deal at the hospital I work at. The Joint Commission that
accredits hospitals nationwide (http://www.jcaho.org/) has very strict
rules as to where concentrated potassium can be kept in the hospital.
I've also been told concentrated potassium is used for lethal injection.

From Joint Commission website:

Medication Error Prevention -- Potassium Chloride

In the two years since the Joint Commission enacted its Sentinel Event
Policy, the Accreditation Committee of the Board of Commissioners has
reviewed more than 200 sentinel events. The most common category of
sentinel events was medication errors, and of those, the most frequently
implicated drug was potassium chloride (KCl). The Joint Commission has
reviewed 10 incidents of patient death resulting from misadministration
of KCl, eight of which were the result of direct infusion of
concentrated KCl. In all cases, a contributing factor identified was
the availability of concentrated KCl on the nursing unit. In six of the
eight cases, the KCl was mistaken for some other medication, primarily
due to similarities in packaging and labeling. Most often, KCl was
mistaken for sodium chloride, heparin or furosemide (Lasix).

Issue For Consideration: In light of this experience, the Joint
Commission suggests that health care organizations NOT make concentrated
KCl available outside of the pharmacy unless appropriate specific
safeguards are in place.

--

Let the bridges I burn light my way...

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole said:

V-8 is the distance rider's resuscitation drink. It's probably the
highest saline solution that's drinkable (subjective). A salt-rich

meal

Quoted message said:

might be: V-8, doritos and a turkey sandwich (turkey is also loaded
with potassium, although potassium depletion isn't an issue). Fast

food

Quoted message said:

french fries are also a great source of salt (& potassium) but most
can't tolerate the grease when riding hard.

What's interesting to me is that my cravings during hot, humid, hard
rides seem to be sodium and potassium foods. I didn't know french
fries had any potassium, but I know they taste wonderful to me in

those

Quoted message said:

conditions.

How about Pringles potato chips? That's something else that I seem

to

Quoted message said:

crave. And beer, of course. And, as mentioned, orange juice with

salt

Quoted message said:

mixed into it.

Quoted message said:

From my table, it looks like 1 serving of Pringles has 100% RDA for

Potassium, so does 32 fl oz of OJ, or a pound or so of bananas.

Quoted message said:

While we're at it, I wonder what foods are rich in magnesium. I'd be
interested to know if I crave those.

Watermelon, almonds, chocolate, sunflower seeds...

Funny thing about beer. I was doing a 400K (250 mi) ride, and all I
could think of for the last several hours was a cold beer. I called my
wife and begged her to bring a cold one (or 2) to the finish. When I
got there I couldn't wait for it, but it was the worst tasting beer I
think I've ever had, couldn't finish a single bottle. Same beer tasted
fine the next day.