Hydrate or Die... or

Roger Zoul said:

Thanks for the info....I had big problems with cramps on two rides
last year and ended up in the sag wagon. So, I'm going to try the
magnesium this time.

Try Tums/Rolaids/whatever. You can get them in almost any convenience store,
even in the middle of nowhere.

Matt O.

Peter Cole said:

Matt O'Toole said:

I'm a V-8 drinker too. Call me un-American, but I hate soft drinks,
and most "juice" drinks aren't much better. V-8 is the only thing
I'll drink that's available in most convenience stores. It seems to
do the trick with salt depletion too.

V-8 is the distance rider's resuscitation drink. It's probably the
highest saline solution that's drinkable (subjective). A salt-rich
meal might be: V-8, doritos and a turkey sandwich (turkey is also
loaded with potassium, although potassium depletion isn't an issue).
Fast food french fries are also a great source of salt (& potassium)
but most can't tolerate the grease when riding hard.

Well, V8, pretzels, and turkey sandwiches are definately some of my staples.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Last year we had Hammergel as a sponsor for our big club ride. We
got free samples of their electrolyte capsules. As a believer in
real food vs. artificial yuppie power food, I had never tried such a
thing. It sat around for months, but I tried it one day when I was
feeling really bad. Well, the stuff is like magic. I felt much
better, instantly. So I bought some more. I use it occasionally
when I feel sick or overtired. It's great stuff. I recommend it.

Their listed ingredients don't sound too magical. I just make up my
own capsules 2/3 table salt, 1/3 bicarb. I've found that salt
depletion isn't a problem until after 8-10 hr or so of hot, hard
riding, an observation that squares with the theory given the amount
of sodium reserves and sweat loss rate. The ingredients for Hammergel
Electrolytes:

Sodium Chloride 100 mg.
Calcium (Chelate) 50 mg.
Magnesium (Chelate) 25 mg.
Potassium (Chelate) 25 mg.
Vitamin B-6 (Pyrodoxine HCL) 6.6 mg.
Manganese (Chelate) 1.6 mg.
L-Tyrosine 50 mg.

It looks like you can get all that in Tums or whatever. Someone told me the
B-vitamins in Hammergel are what makes the difference.

Matt O.

Matt O'Toole said:

Peter Cole said:

Sodium Chloride 100 mg.
Calcium (Chelate) 50 mg.
Magnesium (Chelate) 25 mg.
Potassium (Chelate) 25 mg.
Vitamin B-6 (Pyrodoxine HCL) 6.6 mg.
Manganese (Chelate) 1.6 mg.
L-Tyrosine 50 mg.

It looks like you can get all that in Tums or whatever. Someone told

me the

Quoted message said:

B-vitamins in Hammergel are what makes the difference.

Well, it's about 5x the RDA for B-6. I don't know what the science is
supposed to be, people have been hustling B-vitamins for decades as a
cure-all for fatigue. I think it's BS. You do need the salt if you
sweat enough to blow through your 8 gr nominal (sodium) reserve. My
home-made capsules are about 1 g of salt (400 mg sodium), and I take
one every couple of hours after I get to the point where I start to
lose my thirst (8-10 hr, typically of hot, hard riding). Those
Hammergel caps, like Gatorade, just wouldn't do much for me. Heck, 12
fl oz of V-8 is 1 g of sodium (2.5 g salt).

Jim Smith said:

bbaka said:

Absent Husband said:

Lat tmonth, when I went to buy some Potassium tablets (use them
occasionally on loooong rides for cramps and 'salt' replacement) - the
consulting naturopath (who happened to be at the pharmacy at the time),
asked me what they were for.
When I told her, she told me to buy magnesium tablets instead. She
said
that all the research was showing that potassium had litle/no effect on
cramps, and that magnesium was proving to be the main culprit.
Took her advice and gave it a go. And am having much greater
results!!
I suspect that this type of thing is very individual, but reckon that
its worth a shot for those not getting good results from there
potassium tablets (or whatever you're using)
Cheers,
Absent Husband

What he didn't tell you is that you still need the Potassium for heart
and muscle regulation. You can die from lack of Potassium, usually
from a heart attack.

The thing is, you just don't lose that much potasium in your
sweat. Sodium losses are about 20 times the potasium losses. Partly
this is because 98% of your potasium is inside of cells. On the other
hand, about 90% of your sodium is outside of the cells. This is true
of all lifeforms on earth.

One consequense of potasium being intracellular is that any time you
eat food composed of cells you are getting potasium. This includes
any fruits, vegetables, or muscles you eat. It is not hard at all to
get plenty of potasium in your diet.

People who get their potasium down low enough to have symptoms almost
always have something else going on, such as diuretic use, prolonged
diarrhea or vommiting, certain types of kidney disease, etc.

The situation with sodium is different because the regulation of
sodium and water are intimately connected. It is easy to affect
sodium concentration by adjusting water intake.

Quoted message said:

I don't know if coroners look for this but it is
a well known fact that doctor who prescribe diuretics for their
patients with high blood pressure also tell them to take Potassium
supplements.

Pretty much if you come within ten feet of a hospital you are going to
get your potassium checked. (It's cheap too.) Some characteristic
stuff happens when potassium gets really low, a death would be hard to
miss.

You are correct, certain diuretics are the most common cause of low
potassium, but that has nothing to do with a healthy person
exercising.

I only put that in there as a maybe, since some people must be
exercising to lose both weight and high blood pressure. I am borderline
myself at 130/90 so I only sometimes take Atenolol/Tenormin which lowers
BP by about 10 points but also put my pulse down that much, a side
effect I don't mind while relaxing.
Caution with all meds, vitamins, and foods.
Bill Baka

Wasatch5k said:

JeffWills said:

Yup- and that's why potassium-containing IV's in hospitals are supposed
to be marked in a distinctive fashion, and full-strength IV potassium
chloride is kept away from the ER. Otherwise, bad stuff happens:
http://www.iatrogenic.org/fatalerr.html

Jeff

It's a big deal at the hospital I work at. The Joint Commission that
accredits hospitals nationwide (http://www.jcaho.org/) has very strict
rules as to where concentrated potassium can be kept in the hospital.
I've also been told concentrated potassium is used for lethal injection.

From Joint Commission website:

Medication Error Prevention -- Potassium Chloride

In the two years since the Joint Commission enacted its Sentinel Event
Policy, the Accreditation Committee of the Board of Commissioners has
reviewed more than 200 sentinel events. The most common category of
sentinel events was medication errors, and of those, the most frequently
implicated drug was potassium chloride (KCl). The Joint Commission has
reviewed 10 incidents of patient death resulting from misadministration
of KCl, eight of which were the result of direct infusion of
concentrated KCl. In all cases, a contributing factor identified was
the availability of concentrated KCl on the nursing unit. In six of the
eight cases, the KCl was mistaken for some other medication, primarily
due to similarities in packaging and labeling. Most often, KCl was
mistaken for sodium chloride, heparin or furosemide (Lasix).

Issue For Consideration: In light of this experience, the Joint
Commission suggests that health care organizations NOT make concentrated
KCl available outside of the pharmacy unless appropriate specific
safeguards are in place.

This does hold up to scrutiny but Potassium
Chloride is sold over the counter, so to speak as a salt substitute for
those with high blood pressure. I think there is also one that is a mix
of 50% each KCl and NaCl.
Bill Baka

Matt O'Toole said:

Roger Zoul said:

Thanks for the info....I had big problems with cramps on two rides
last year and ended up in the sag wagon. So, I'm going to try the
magnesium this time.

Try Tums/Rolaids/whatever. You can get them in almost any convenience store,
even in the middle of nowhere.

Matt O.

Tums are just Calcium carbonate so you will have strong bones at least.
A friend of mine eats about 30 a day, like candy and has never broken a
bone. Figure that one out.
Bill Baka

Matt O'Toole said:

Roger Zoul said:

Thanks for the info....I had big problems with cramps on two rides
last year and ended up in the sag wagon. So, I'm going to try the
magnesium this time.

Try Tums/Rolaids/whatever. You can get them in almost any convenience
store,
even in the middle of nowhere.

But read the label. Tums are just calcium. Rolaids are a mix of calcium
and magnesium.

Austin
--
I'm pedaling as fast as I durn well please!
There are no X characters in my address

bbaka said:

Sodium is also needed, although not in the huge quantities that the
average American takes in.

Not necessarily true. Largest study ever done (about 4 years ago) on sodium
vs. lifespan found that (almost) across the board, people consuming more
sodium lived longer. That was still true when they isolated persons who had
conditions that traditionally indicated low sodium diets. Apparently,
sodium intake reduction (in most circumstances) only treats symptoms and not
the underlying problem.

Austin
--
I'm pedaling as fast as I durn well please!
There are no X characters in my address

bbaka said:

Beer and Pizza not counting since I ride where there are no stores,
anything I can find growing wild is tasty and I have been known to stop
for a good half hour to pick a blackberry bush clean. I raided an orchard
one time thinking I was eating small plums and they turned out to be
prunes. BIG surprise down the road.
When you are riding hard, hot and fast, almost anything looks like a well
prepared steak.

Sounds like bonking (carb-starved) description I once heard. "You know
you've bonked when you start watching the ground looking for something to
can eat."

Austin
--
I'm pedaling as fast as I durn well please!
There are no X characters in my address

"bbaka" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tums are just Calcium carbonate so you will have strong bones at least.
A friend of mine eats about 30 a day, like candy and has never broken a
bone. Figure that one out.
Bill Baka

I've never eaten a Tums in my life or ever broken a bone. Not much figuring
needed when you've already swallowed the snake oil salesman's pitch.

Austin MN said:

bbaka said:

Sodium is also needed, although not in the huge quantities that the
average American takes in.

Not necessarily true. Largest study ever done (about 4 years ago) on
sodium vs. lifespan found that (almost) across the board, people
consuming more sodium lived longer. That was still true when they
isolated persons who had conditions that traditionally indicated low
sodium diets. Apparently, sodium intake reduction (in most
circumstances) only treats symptoms and not the underlying problem.

Austin

I was referring to the fairly large amount of people with High Blood
Pressure who never get it checked and never know they have it until it
is too late. The average young American (under 30-35) may not know or
care, as I didn't either, with the typical attitude of being
indestructible. Life taught me a few lessons along the way. Everything I
have ever read says that a 10 point drop in blood pressure should equal
out to about that many more years of life. Apparently it puts less long
term stress on the heart, kidneys, and certain other vital organs.
Sodium itself was not the only link, but also stress and other factors.
I do know that when riding you had better pay attention, as in Lance
Armstrong's case in last years TdF where he lost about 5 pounds from
dehydration and had to be supplemented with an IV that night. I heard
that you can only survive (not function) after losing about 10% of you
body weight in water.
And no I can' post references but they are out there. Dial up makes even
a Google and some sites loading very painful.
Bill (Still at 46.2k) Baka

Austin MN said:

bbaka said:

Beer and Pizza not counting since I ride where there are no stores,
anything I can find growing wild is tasty and I have been known to
stop for a good half hour to pick a blackberry bush clean. I raided an
orchard one time thinking I was eating small plums and they turned out
to be prunes. BIG surprise down the road.
When you are riding hard, hot and fast, almost anything looks like a
well prepared steak.

Sounds like bonking (carb-starved) description I once heard. "You know
you've bonked when you start watching the ground looking for something
to can eat."

Austin

It is more of a bonking prevention thing. And since I am only out for
the mere reason of being out and not inside a building, why not? I get
different fruits and things that are accessible during different parts
of the Spring and Summer. Remember, I am not riding at full speed, about
18 MPH for me, but for distance and to soak up all knowledge of my
chosen road. I do get the bonk after about 70 miles in the mountains and
after having eaten or drank everything I brought with me. When I start
out I am like a self contained grocery mart but after 70 miles the
shelves are empty and so am I. Come summer I will probably have 6 water
bottles on my bike filled with Orange juice and V-8 (I hate Gatorade).
The roadside fruit is just an excuse to stretch my legs and get
circulation in the sit bones again.
Bill (tourist) Baka

matabala said:

"bbaka" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tums are just Calcium carbonate so you will have strong bones at least.
A friend of mine eats about 30 a day, like candy and has never broken a
bone. Figure that one out.
Bill Baka

I've never eaten a Tums in my life or ever broken a bone. Not much figuring
needed when you've already swallowed the snake oil salesman's pitch.

They would probably serve a better service for women but they are like
candy if you chew on them and I don't see any harm in giving your body
plenty of calcium for later years in life. I think that at 75 or so your
doctor would be amazed at the bone mass as opposed to people who never
do anything right to help their own long term health. The other fringe
benefit is that it makes sleep better (some obscure memory in there),
but I can't post a link.
Bill Baka

Peter Cole said:

Funny thing about beer. I was doing a 400K (250 mi) ride, and all I
could think of for the last several hours was a cold beer. I called my
wife and begged her to bring a cold one (or 2) to the finish. When I
got there I couldn't wait for it, but it was the worst tasting beer I
think I've ever had, couldn't finish a single bottle. Same beer tasted
fine the next day.

I've found the same thing - when I'm really hot and thirsty a beer is
the last thing I want to drink. Nothing is better than a huge glass
of nice cold (not TOO cold...) water.

Mark "glug, glug, glug" Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Werehatrack said:

I believe there is an old saying, "Moderation in all things, and all
things in moderation."

Including moderation.

Wasatch5k <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

JeffWills said:

Yup- and that's why potassium-containing IV's in hospitals are
supposed to be marked in a distinctive fashion, and full-strength
IV potassium chloride is kept away from the ER. Otherwise, bad
stuff happens: http://www.iatrogenic.org/fatalerr.html

Jeff

It's a big deal at the hospital I work at. The Joint Commission
that accredits hospitals nationwide (http://www.jcaho.org/) has
very strict rules as to where concentrated potassium can be kept
in the hospital. I've also been told concentrated potassium is
used for lethal injection.

Increasing the potassium concentration in extracellular body fluids
depolarizes the electrical potential across the membranes of nerve
cells and muscle cells. Sustained depolarization of the heart muscle
cells kills you by stopping the heart. I believe that anesthetic and
paralytic agents are infused before the potassium chloride to prevent
the *massive* seizure that would otherwise result.

--
Mike Nitabach

Werehatrack said:

On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 23:50:47 GMT, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Here's a perspective that took a while to surface:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/14/opinion/14thu2.html?

I believe there is an old saying, "Moderation in all things, and all
things in moderation."

Ultra-cycling is not moderate. Moderation is boring, anyway.

Peter Cole said:

Roger Zoul said:

Absent Husband wrote:
:: Lat tmonth, when I went to buy some Potassium tablets (use them
:: occasionally on loooong rides for cramps and 'salt' replacement) -
:: the consulting naturopath (who happened to be at the pharmacy at

the

Quoted message said:

:: time), asked me what they were for.
::
:: When I told her, she told me to buy magnesium tablets instead. She
:: said that all the research was showing that potassium had litle/no
:: effect on cramps, and that magnesium was proving to be the main
:: culprit.
::
:: Took her advice and gave it a go. And am having much greater
:: results!! I suspect that this type of thing is very individual,

but

Quoted message said:

:: reckon that its worth a shot for those not getting good results

from

Quoted message said:

:: there potassium tablets (or whatever you're using)

Thanks for the info....I had big problems with cramps on two rides

last year

Quoted message said:

and ended up in the sag wagon. So, I'm going to try the magnesium

this

Quoted message said:

time.

Some people say potassium, some say calcium, now it's magnesium. You
have to diferentiate between "medical" cramps (which may be an ion
imbalance) and "exercise induced cramps". EIC is purely the result of
fatigue. There's no magic pill or food. You can only train for
endurance. The harder you push muscles, the faster you accumulate
fatigue. You can get the most out of your current level of fitness by
keeping your muscular level of effort very uniform. For most people
that means not getting carried away and going out too fast and backing
off to a comfortable pace during climbs. A HRM can be useful to keep an
eye on your average effort level and help to pace yourself.

Good info, as usual, Peter. I remember talking here about my muscle
cramps last year when they occur. Everyone told me to drink more water
or more gatoraid. No one mentioned any possiblity of EIC. I'm sure my
problem was EIC, as it only occured in my quads as a result of climbing
hills. I'm a big fella (225 lbs) so even though I have strong legs it's
hard to train them for hills unless I'm climbing them every day, which I
can't do. The first time I sagged out due to quad cramps was the result
of trying to race someone up a hill. I had no idea that the cramps would
happen later on in that ride. The second time it happened, I wasn't so
foolish, but I basically overreached in my climbing.

I'll probably still try the mag just in case though. While I feel EIC is
the problem, it's really hard to say for sure.

Peter Cole said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Here's a perspective that took a while to surface:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/14/opinion/14thu2.html?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I believe there is an old saying, "Moderation in all things, and
all things in moderation."

Quoted message said:

Ultra-cycling is not moderate. Moderation is boring, anyway.

Yes, and we are all ultra cyclists and emulate Lance Armstrong when
riding. This recurring thread permeates these discussions that are
full of posturing that no one can prove or disprove other than by its
syndrome, especially by a raft of overweight riders.

Now don't all rise your hands at once! I'm not asking for volunteers.

[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Peter Cole writes:

(actually just the last sentence, the first was Jobst, the second
Werehatrack)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Here's a perspective that took a while to surface:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/14/opinion/14thu2.html?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I believe there is an old saying, "Moderation in all things, and
all things in moderation."

Quoted message said:

Ultra-cycling is not moderate. Moderation is boring, anyway.

Yes, and we are all ultra cyclists and emulate Lance Armstrong when
riding. This recurring thread permeates these discussions that are
full of posturing that no one can prove or disprove other than by its
syndrome, especially by a raft of overweight riders.

Now don't all rise your hands at once! I'm not asking for

volunteers.

Who are these "overweight riders", anyway? And what does that have to
do with under/over hydration?

The context of the article, which you should know, since you initiated
the thread, described a problem that surfaced in marathon runners. The
obvious question was whether it was a risk for cyclists. Or did you
have some other reason for posting it? You're not shedding much light
with these cryptic remarks.

Moderate drinking is fine when the activity is moderate, immoderate
activity (which I happen to enjoy from time to time) has other
requirements. The trick is knowing the difference.

Regulating sodium can be difficult under stressful conditions. It can
be hard to recognize the various combinations of too much/too little,
fluid/sodium.
<http://www.ultracycling.com/nutrition/hyponatremia2.html>

You needn't mock an activity you don't participate in, it's unseemly.