"Whites Only"?

"Chris Zacho "The Wheelman"" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have been riding for over 30 years now. I've been the member of many
clubs, large and small, on both coasts and in the middle. I've been to
and done many organized rides (short, long and "are you nuts?"😉 and bike
rallies boasting attendances ranging from the hundreds to the thousands.

Yet at any one of these organizations or events, I could count the total
number of "Afro-American" riders with the fingers of one hand. The
portion of South Carolina where I live now, according to the latest
census, has a population that is about 60% black. Yet the local club,
which has nearly 100 members, to my knowledge has only one black
cyclist. Hardly an accurate representation of the population at large.

In fact, I'll be willing to bet, that out of all the posters on this
board, only one, maybe two, max. are black. If indeed anybody here is.
Where are all the black riders? What is it about our sport that makes it
so unappealing to an entire race of people?

Anybody have any theories?

1) Cycling is a dorky sport. Seriously. It's a tech driven sport, and it has
no street cred.

2) The clothes we wear are not attractive.

3) Our sport is very expensive. $2000 bicycle is far more expensive than a
basketball and a pair of Nikes.

4) A larger percentage of blacks live in neighborhoods with high crime
rates, making it likely to have a bike stolen.

Of course, I could be off base here. I just don't think that cycling is that
attractive to blacks, culturally. Black people like to run, lift weights,
and participate in ball sports. I live near one of the best Rails to Trails
in the country, and I've never seen a black person on the trail. I've seen a
few in town, but they were riding 'mart bikes.

Most cyclists cycle alone; I'd say, based on the numbers of cyclists
I encounter going the other way, that there's no noticeable shortage of
black cyclists.

Not that I encounter large numbers of cyclists. The ``serious''
cyclists show up only in nice weather, in my experience. Serious
means with expensive bicycles and flashy togs.

So I'm not talking about huge absolute numbers of black cyclists,
but neither is it huge numbers of white ones. But they do show up.

As to groups, if I can't stand them, I'm ill prepared to judge why
black cyclists in particular might not like them. It seems natural
to me whatever your color is.
--
Ron Hardin
[email hidden]

On the internet, nobody knows you're a jerk.

"Gooserider" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Where are all the black riders? What is it about our sport

that makes it

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

so unappealing to an entire race of people?

3) Our sport is very expensive. $2000 bicycle is far more

expensive than a

Quoted message said:

basketball and a pair of Nikes.

Are you KIDDING me??? Did you, not an apparent troll, really just
say that in a public forum?

Quoted message said:

Of course, I could be off base here.

You could be, and are.

Quoted message said:

I just don't think that cycling is that
attractive to blacks, culturally. Black people like to run,

lift weights,

Quoted message said:

and participate in ball sports.

<shaking head, rubbing eyes>

-Brendon

"Brendon M. Troy" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3) Our sport is very expensive. $2000 bicycle is far more

expensive than a

Quoted message said:

basketball and a pair of Nikes.

Are you KIDDING me??? Did you, not an apparent troll, really

just

Quoted message said:

say that in a public forum?

Oops, sorry, just checked your posting history and realized that
while you're not really a troll, this kind of comment really
isn't out of the ordinary for you. Never mind; go about your sad
existence and I'll ignore you.

-Brendon

: Oops, sorry, just checked your posting history and realized that
: while you're not really a troll, this kind of comment really
: isn't out of the ordinary for you. Never mind; go about your sad
: existence and I'll ignore you.
:
: -Brendon
:
Instead of just reacting off the wall, why don't you take a few moments and
explain why what he said got you so bent out of shape? Are the rest of us
supposed to read your mind?

Pat in TX
:

There should be some way to combine this thread with the new one about
train tracks being converted into bicycling routes.

After all, this is clearly a third rail topic.

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

: Oops, sorry, just checked your posting history and realized

that

Quoted message said:

: while you're not really a troll, this kind of comment really
: isn't out of the ordinary for you. Never mind; go about your

sad

Quoted message said:

: existence and I'll ignore you.
:
Instead of just reacting off the wall, why don't you take a few

moments and

Quoted message said:

explain why what he said got you so bent out of shape? Are the

rest of us

Quoted message said:

supposed to read your mind?

Well, I figured quoting him in my original post was enough, but
perhaps I should've quoted it again in my self-reply; sorry. The
offensive bit was as follows:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Where are all the black riders? (OP)

3) Our sport is very expensive. $2000 bicycle is far more

expensive than a

Quoted message said:

basketball and a pair of Nikes. (Him)

Anyhow, like I said, I discovered that he's got a prejudiced chip
on his shoulder towards a lot of groups, so I'm no longer
surprised by this. I thought he was a seemingly normal rbr
contributor when I got all "bent of shape".

-Brendon

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 10:06:35 -0500, "Brendon M. Troy" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Pat" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

: Oops, sorry, just checked your posting history and realized

that

Quoted message said:

: while you're not really a troll, this kind of comment really
: isn't out of the ordinary for you. Never mind; go about your

sad

Quoted message said:

: existence and I'll ignore you.
:
Instead of just reacting off the wall, why don't you take a few

moments and

Quoted message said:

explain why what he said got you so bent out of shape? Are the

rest of us

Quoted message said:

supposed to read your mind?

Well, I figured quoting him in my original post was enough, but
perhaps I should've quoted it again in my self-reply; sorry. The
offensive bit was as follows:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Where are all the black riders? (OP)

3) Our sport is very expensive. $2000 bicycle is far more

expensive than a

Quoted message said:

basketball and a pair of Nikes. (Him)

Anyhow, like I said, I discovered that he's got a prejudiced chip
on his shoulder towards a lot of groups, so I'm no longer
surprised by this. I thought he was a seemingly normal rbr
contributor when I got all "bent of shape".

So ah, what part has he got wrong? Cycling isn't expensive after all? Black
people are somehow unique in considering the cost of a sport?

Or is your dudgeon all the explanation necessary?

Ron

Chris Zacho The Wheelman said:

Where are all the black riders? What is it about our sport that makes it
so unappealing to an entire race of people?

Could overlap with social class issues. Possibly in poorer neighborhoods, as
in poorer countries, bikes are used as transport because people do not have
the option of cars. So when they become upwardly mobile, they eschew what
they see as symbols of poverty. Among social elites, instead, the bike is
seen as ecological, intellectual and aware. People take it for granted that
they _can_ afford cars, and therefore the bike is the conscious choice of
the green and handsome and fit and hip.

I had a boss of Tunisian extraction for whom this was very true. He was the
first person in his family to have "made it" in Western capitalist terms.
Even though he lived only about 15 minutes from his workplace on foot, he
always drove in with a huge, expensive car. It was a status symbol. I tried
to persuade him to have a green conscience and cycle in, and he understood
me rationally, but just couldn't get his heart into it. Too much like what
he had put behind him.

EFR
Ile de France

"RonSonic" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

So ah, what part has he got wrong? <snip>
Or is your dudgeon all the explanation necessary?

Well, that and the quote, I would have thought.

The implication that all black people are poor, and that all that
all black people are interested in doing for recreation is
basketball (in overpriced shoes, no less). Those (followed up by
more generalization about what "black people like to (do)"😉 were
what I took umbrage at, if it wasn't clear.

-Brendon

"Elisa Francesca Roselli" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Could overlap with social class issues. Possibly in poorer

neighborhoods, as

Quoted message said:

in poorer countries, bikes are used as transport because people

do not have

Quoted message said:

the option of cars. So when they become upwardly mobile, they

eschew what

Quoted message said:

they see as symbols of poverty. Among social elites, instead,

the bike is

Quoted message said:

seen as ecological, intellectual and aware. People take it for

granted that

Quoted message said:

they _can_ afford cars, and therefore the bike is the conscious

choice of

Quoted message said:

the green and handsome and fit and hip.

This is a more reasonable and sensitively-put potential
explanation for some of the issue (if indeed there even is one);
well-put.

-Brendon

Chris Zacho 'The Wheelman said:

Yet at any one of these organizations or events, I could count the

total

Quoted message said:

number of "Afro-American" riders with the fingers of one hand. The
portion of South Carolina where I live now, according to the latest
census, has a population that is about 60% black. Yet the local club,
which has nearly 100 members, to my knowledge has only one black
cyclist. Hardly an accurate representation of the population at

large.

Nope. But neither is the NBA. Blacks are a minority in this country,
yet they dominate the NBA. You could ask where all the white players
are. To be sure, there ARE whites playing basketball, but at the
professional level whites are a minority.

Quoted message said:

In fact, I'll be willing to bet, that out of all the posters on this
board, only one, maybe two, max. are black. If indeed anybody here

is.

Quoted message said:

Where are all the black riders? What is it about our sport that makes

it

Quoted message said:

so unappealing to an entire race of people?

I don't think it's unappealing, per se. I think it's just cultural. I
would wager that, on the whole, blacks have less interest in bicycling
as a recreational sport than whites. I think every sport, in fact,
tends to be played by one group more than the other. I don't think
this is bad - just the way things are.

-Bill Henry

On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 11:12:32 -0500, "Brendon M. Troy" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"RonSonic" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

So ah, what part has he got wrong? <snip>
Or is your dudgeon all the explanation necessary?

Well, that and the quote, I would have thought.

The implication that all black people are poor, and that all that
all black people are interested in doing for recreation is
basketball (in overpriced shoes, no less). Those (followed up by
more generalization about what "black people like to (do)"😉 were
what I took umbrage at, if it wasn't clear.

I really do think it is best if we make it clear. And even willing to play
devil's advocate in that way. So often indignation is used in place of reason
and persuasion. That doesn't work for me and I do call out those things out of
habit.

The OP was, I am sure, being deliberately provocative. But did manage to stay
IMO in fair territory while making a feint for the sideline you were covering.
We'll see if he actually had a point beyond seeing if he could get other people
to argue.

Ron

Chris Zacho 'The Wheelman said:

I have been riding for over 30 years now. I've been the member of many
clubs, large and small, on both coasts and in the middle. I've been to
and done many organized rides (short, long and "are you nuts?"😉 and
bike rallies boasting attendances ranging from the hundreds to the
thousands.

Yet at any one of these organizations or events, I could count the
total number of "Afro-American" riders with the fingers of one hand.

One hand? Dang!

Quoted message said:

The portion of South Carolina where I live now, according to the
latest census, has a population that is about 60% black. Yet the
local club, which has nearly 100 members, to my knowledge has only
one black cyclist. Hardly an accurate representation of the
population at large.

You must be down in the low country. I'm in Upstate SC. Sadly, the numbers
here aren't much better (should be ever lower, though). On organized rides
up here, I've seen maybe five (at most) other black folks, and one was a
girl. Two guys I saw seemed to be pretty skilled riders, whereas I'm a
noob. I saw one guy (who claims to have a twin brother who rides, but I
think he was pulling my leg) on different charity ride events.

Quoted message said:

In fact, I'll be willing to bet, that out of all the posters on this
board, only one, maybe two, max. are black.

Dang! Does that mean I'm just about the only black poster here?

Quoted message said:

If indeed anybody here is.
Where are all the black riders? What is it about our sport that makes
it so unappealing to an entire race of people?

Quoted message said:

Anybody have any theories?

Well, I don't claim to have any answers beyond the obvious: Be like Mike.

I personally have no interest in organized team sports, other than cycling,
which I discovered only recently.

I see lots of black guys playing golf on a course along one of my riding
routes. Of course, lots of black guys go to the gym to lift weights and
play basket and racquetball.

I predict that the numbers will increase, though. I'm a regular on the
roads around here and I got my last girlfriend into it. Maybe I can draw my
current girlfriend it, but she's pretty committed to running, so maybe not.
The LA thingie will draw some more in, too, maybe.

In article <[email hidden]>,

RonSonic said:

The OP was, I am sure, being deliberately provocative. But did manage to stay
IMO in fair territory while making a feint for the sideline you were covering.
We'll see if he actually had a point beyond seeing if he could get other people
to argue.

Nah, Chris has posted to the newsgroup for quite a while, and
I know he's no troll. I'm sure he has genuinely perceived a
dearth of black cyclists (particularly in club circles,) and
he sincerely and innocently wonders why that is.

I've similarly noticed in my own local experience how
pre-college-aged youth appears to be under-represented
among cyclists, although there seems to be a recent trend
away from that.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Chris Zacho 'The Wheelman said:

Where are all the black riders?

Quite a few folks of all shades around here on the park paths. Tons of
Xmart bike riders--hey whatever gets you into the sport.

It's a cultural thing as many have said--it's not some dangerous third
rail topic--we can generalize and say that Canadians are more likely to
play hockey than Nicaraguans--and not feel weird about it. LOL

I have seen quite a dramatic increase of black folks on high zoot rides
around here which is interesting...

I've chatted with a few of the black dudes on fancy rides around here, and
indeed a lot of the guys are refugees from "traditionally black" sports
like basketball and football and were recommended cycling by their
trainers or doctors as a lower impact sports.

Cycling is also making into the mainstream and appeals to folks of all
backgrounds--it's not the mysterious sport of nail on cleats and stinky
wool anymore. 😄

maxo said:

It's a cultural thing as many have said--it's not some dangerous third
rail topic--we can generalize and say that Canadians are more likely to
play hockey than Nicaraguans--and not feel weird about it. LOL

I believe that any and all topics should be fodder for discussion in a
reasonable, thoughtful, dispassionate, and intellectual way. That
starts with a tacit agreement that comes only from knowing the rest of
the participants in a discussion fairly well.

This is a pretty incendiary topic--arguably more so than politics
or--dare I say--gruppo manufacturers.

It also calls for the speculation /of/ a large group of people as to
the reasons for the absence of a large group of people, largely absent
that group's participation.

Not inherently unfair. Not even inherently inappropriate. But I
still see Robot, from "Lost In Space" waving his arms . . . .

Neil Brooks said:

maxo said:

It's a cultural thing as many have said--it's not some dangerous third
rail topic--we can generalize and say that Canadians are more likely to
play hockey than Nicaraguans--and not feel weird about it. LOL

I believe that any and all topics should be fodder for discussion in a
reasonable, thoughtful, dispassionate, and intellectual way. That
starts with a tacit agreement that comes only from knowing the rest of
the participants in a discussion fairly well.

This is a pretty incendiary topic--arguably more so than politics
or--dare I say--gruppo manufacturers.

Let me elaborate here: I don't think the topic is inherently
incendiary, based on my first paragraph. I think it's incendiary
based on the potential for ill-conceived, mean spirited responses that
are based more in ignorance, prejudice, preconception, or bigotry than
in any semblance of fact.

Back to the peanut gallery....

"Chris Zacho "The Wheelman"" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have been riding for over 30 years now. I've been the member of many
clubs, large and small, on both coasts and in the middle. I've been to
and done many organized rides (short, long and "are you nuts?"😉 and bike
rallies boasting attendances ranging from the hundreds to the thousands.

Quoted message said:

Yet at any one of these organizations or events, I could count the total
number of "Afro-American" riders with the fingers of one hand.

And yet, riding to and from work every day (which is as organized as *I*
ever get about riding) I see blacks represented in roughly the same
proportion as they exist in the general local population.

Quoted message said:

The
portion of South Carolina where I live now, according to the latest
census, has a population that is about 60% black. Yet the local club,
which has nearly 100 members, to my knowledge has only one black
cyclist. Hardly an accurate representation of the population at large.

In fact, I'll be willing to bet, that out of all the posters on this
board, only one, maybe two, max. are black. If indeed anybody here is.
Where are all the black riders? What is it about our sport that makes it
so unappealing to an entire race of people?

Anybody have any theories?

My theory is that some people don't find it necessary to pay dues, join
organizations, and wear uniforms in order to ride a bicycle.

And the more I ride, the less time I spend talking about it.

RichC