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"Whites Only"?

Started by Chris Zacho The Wheelman · · Last activity · 141 posts · 5,079 views

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Road Cycling
Published
4 March 2005
Last activity
13 March 2005
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Chris Zacho The Wheelman
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  1. Neil Brooks said:

    I think it's incendiary
    based on the potential for ill-conceived, mean spirited responses that
    are based more in ignorance, prejudice, preconception, or bigotry than
    in any semblance of fact.

    It also gives us to potential to laugh at our ridiculous, mostly pale,
    lycra-wearing selves.

    Perhaps it's because I grew up a really square white guy in a black
    neighborhood, or maybe I'm just insensitive--but I find laughing about our
    cultural differences to be quite healthy and cathartic. Serious
    discussions about race have their place, but I'd rather point out the fact
    that I can't dance.

  2. Brendon M. Troy said:

    The implication that all black people are poor, and that all that
    all black people are interested in doing for recreation is
    basketball (in overpriced shoes, no less). Those (followed up by
    more generalization about what "black people like to (do)"😉 were
    what I took umbrage at, if it wasn't clear.

    -Brendon

    Brendon,

    It seems to me that you are a victim of the hyper-sensitivity that
    seems prevalent in the U.S. these days. Every group - whether linked by
    race, economic status, attendance at a certain college - has certain
    characteristics in common. Is should not be considered racist to
    discuss commonalities and point out the outliers which defy the
    stereotype.

    This discussion about blacks and cycling reminds me of a report
    yesterday about "Urban Youth" who are participating in a program which
    exposes them to another primarily white sport, snowboarding. The first
    youth interviewed says "I thought it was just uh... a sport for white
    people." Although they are careful to call him a poor inner-city youth,
    he sounds like a young black man. Here's where you can hear it for
    yourself: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4517994

    He also states that he loved to watch the sport on TV, but never
    considered participating. I find it facinating that this young man
    recognizes there are differences and is willing to voice it. Yet here
    we are on this open form getting incensed over some simple comments.

    Is it reasonable to have such an inflammatory response over an unbiased
    observation or fact? Most of our world operates in a self-segratory
    manner. Just look at blacks, hispanics, or asians in the U.S., Kurds in
    Iraq, or Palestinians in Israel. Why do we have a "Little Italy" in New
    York or a "Chinatown" in San Francisco? Since we have such
    self-segration in cities, is it unreasonable to think we may also have
    self-segregation in sports or other activities? I think it is important
    to discuss the issues so we can understand *why* these things happen
    and perhaps do something about it.

    -Buck

  3. Chris Zacho 'The Wheelman said:


    In fact, I'll be willing to bet, that out of all the posters on this
    board, only one, maybe two, max. are black. If indeed anybody here


    is.

    Quoted message said:

    Where are all the black riders? What is it about our sport that makes


    it

    Quoted message said:

    so unappealing to an entire race of people?

    It's an interesting question, but I wouldn't limit it to
    black/non-black. I'm curious about the demographics of recreational
    cycling. In my experience of club riding (Boston), many groups seem
    under-represented. I think cycling is a bit like running in that
    respect, only perhaps more so.

    How do people get into cycling? Perhaps it's the path that's important.
    Most of us don't have a cultural heritage of recreational cycling, so
    it's something we have to pick up from other kinds of exposure. I
    became "exposed" in an east coast university town (Boston) where a few
    acquaintances were serious cyclists during college. I bought a bike
    then and did a bit of cycling out of imitation, I guess.

    A lot of people like me (middle-aged guys) seemed to pick up cycling
    during college, let it lapse a bit afterwards, then returned to it when
    seeking a fitness activity. I don't think I'd be cycling now if I
    hadn't had that relatively brief exposure during college.

    The people I know who do physical work seem to prefer non-physical
    recreations (like fishing). Almost all the cyclists I know have
    non-physical (desk) jobs. Most of the cyclists I know seem to approach
    cycling as more of a fitness activity than a social one, which seems to
    bias things to an older population, as there are many better venues for
    workout with socialization. The few black club cyclists I know are all
    like me: middle-aged, middle-class, college-educated, desk-jockys.

    Lastly, I consider the impact of sports on TV. When I played basketball
    regularly, you'd see a big increase in turnout during the pro season,
    peaking during the playoffs. Similarly, the rise in popularity of
    sports like tennis & golf seems to follow the TV coverage and rise of
    super stars. Cycling just doesn't get that kind of exposure, so that
    limits the demographic breadth of interest. How's a kid today
    (black/white/male/fem) get to know about cycling and become a club
    cyclist later on?

    I do mountain bike patrol in a park that has a very heavy
    black/latino/asian user base. White people typically hike and mountain
    bike, non-whites picnic, fish and swim. Recently, I've seen a few small
    all-black groups of MTB riders show up. I don't think I've seen any
    mixed groups. Boston, like most of the country I guess, is still pretty
    segregated socially. If cycling is popularized via friend-to-friend
    contact, then the lack of black-white socialization may be the only
    thing which keeps the activity segregated. It's really a shame since
    cycling is so neutral in terms of all factors: age, gender and income,
    never mind race.

  4. "Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Brendon M. Troy said:

    The implication that all black people are poor, and that all that
    all black people are interested in doing for recreation is
    basketball (in overpriced shoes, no less). Those (followed up by
    more generalization about what "black people like to (do)"😉 were
    what I took umbrage at, if it wasn't clear.

    -Brendon

    Brendon,

    It seems to me that you are a victim of the hyper-sensitivity that
    seems prevalent in the U.S. these days. Every group - whether linked by
    race, economic status, attendance at a certain college - has certain
    characteristics in common. Is should not be considered racist to
    discuss commonalities and point out the outliers which defy the
    stereotype.

    This discussion about blacks and cycling reminds me of a report
    yesterday about "Urban Youth" who are participating in a program which
    exposes them to another primarily white sport, snowboarding. The first
    youth interviewed says "I thought it was just uh... a sport for white
    people." Although they are careful to call him a poor inner-city youth,
    he sounds like a young black man. Here's where you can hear it for
    yourself: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4517994

    He also states that he loved to watch the sport on TV, but never
    considered participating. I find it facinating that this young man
    recognizes there are differences and is willing to voice it. Yet here
    we are on this open form getting incensed over some simple comments.

    Is it reasonable to have such an inflammatory response over an unbiased
    observation or fact? Most of our world operates in a self-segratory
    manner. Just look at blacks, hispanics, or asians in the U.S., Kurds in
    Iraq, or Palestinians in Israel. Why do we have a "Little Italy" in New
    York or a "Chinatown" in San Francisco? Since we have such
    self-segration in cities, is it unreasonable to think we may also have
    self-segregation in sports or other activities? I think it is important
    to discuss the issues so we can understand *why* these things happen
    and perhaps do something about it.

    -Buck

    Isn't it interesting how we're supposed to "celebrate diversity," but we
    dare not point out any of the attributes that make us diverse.

    --
    Bob C.

    "Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
    T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

  5. (Roger Zoul) said:

    Chris Zacho "The Wheelman"
    <[email hidden]> wrote:

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Yet at any one of these organizations or
    events, I could count the total number
    of "Afro-American" riders with the
    fingers of one hand.

    Quoted message said:

    One hand? Dang!

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The portion of South Carolina where I
    live now, according to the latest
    census, has a population that is about
    60% black. Yet the local club, which
    has nearly 100 members, to my
    knowledge has only one black cyclist.
    Hardly an accurate representation of
    the population at large.

    Quoted message said:

    You must be down in the low country.
    I'm in Upstate SC. Sadly, the numbers
    here aren't much better (should be ever
    lower, though).

    Close, I'm on the upper edge of the Piedmont, almost exactly between
    Columbia and Charlotte.

    Quoted message said:

    On organized rides up here, I've seen maybe five (at most) other black


    folks, and one was a girl.

    Yup, One hand. §:-3)>

    - -

    "May you have the winds at your back,
    And a really low gear for the hills!"

    Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

    Chris'Z Corner
    http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

  6. [email hidden] (Gooserider) Wrote:
    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    3) Our sport is very expensive. $2000
    bicycle is far more expensive than a
    basketball and a pair of Nikes.

    - -

    "May you have the winds at your back,
    And a really low gear for the hills!"

    Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

    Chris'Z Corner
    http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

  7. [email hidden] (Gooserider) wrote:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    3) Our sport is very expensive. a $2000
    bicycle is far more expensive than a
    basketball and a pair of Nikes.


    </snip>

    Sorryt bout the double post, my finger slipped.

    Who needs a $2000 bike ? Maybe if you're seriously into competition,
    perhaps considering going pro, maybe, but you don't need to go overboard
    for an ordinary club ride. Hell, I've done fine for years, pulling off
    single, double, and even triple centuries on a Schwinn valued at _maybe_
    $400-$500.

    As for the "status factor", I would think that being able to fork out
    $2000+ "just for a bicycle" would qualify very nicely.

    - -

    "May you have the winds at your back,
    And a really low gear for the hills!"

    Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

    Chris'Z Corner
    http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

  8. Wow, would you look at that, I actually started a lengthy thread, and it
    didn't fall in "flames" after seven or eight posts! LOL Glad to see the
    great input and opinions.

    And to the one that implied that I was trying to "start something",
    you're right, and it seems I did. What inspired it up was a discussion I
    heard at the bike shop by a customer who was under the impression that
    bicycling was somehow like baseball in the pre-Jackie Robinson days.
    That we, as cyclists, simply didn't welcome blacks.

    - -

    "May you have the winds at your back,
    And a really low gear for the hills!"

    Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

    Chris'Z Corner
    http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

  9. (Tom Keats) said:

    In article <[email hidden]>,

    RonSonic said:

    The OP was, I am sure, being deliberately provocative. But did manage to stay
    IMO in fair territory while making a feint for the sideline you were covering.
    We'll see if he actually had a point beyond seeing if he could get other people
    to argue.

    Nah, Chris has posted to the newsgroup for quite a while, and
    I know he's no troll. I'm sure he has genuinely perceived a
    dearth of black cyclists (particularly in club circles,) and
    he sincerely and innocently wonders why that is.

    I've similarly noticed in my own local experience how
    pre-college-aged youth appears to be under-represented
    among cyclists, although there seems to be a recent trend
    away from that.

    Competitive cycling has suck all for a youth program. Yeah, yeah, you hear about
    such things, but mostly they don't much give a [censored] beyond finding out who's
    likely to go to the Junior worlds next year.

    If you don't get 10 year olds to think it's cool you won't have 14 year olds
    with an interest or 16 year olds with a chance.

    Ron

  10. On Fri, 4 Mar 2005 18:28:52 -0500, [email hidden] (Chris Zacho "The

    Wheelman') said:

    Wow, would you look at that, I actually started a lengthy thread, and it
    didn't fall in "flames" after seven or eight posts! LOL Glad to see the
    great input and opinions.

    And to the one that implied that I was trying to "start something",
    you're right, and it seems I did. What inspired it up was a discussion I
    heard at the bike shop by a customer who was under the impression that
    bicycling was somehow like baseball in the pre-Jackie Robinson days.
    That we, as cyclists, simply didn't welcome blacks.

    Provocative or provocation such a line and not always obvious, just wasn't sure
    where you were looking to go. I've seen so many of these discussions go
    straight to hell I was sorta hoping this one might be worthwhile. To my mind
    indignation never helps.

    Anyway, I see blacks on the paved trails and roads, mostly cross training, some
    MTB action. Lower than the percentage in the community but not notably absent.

    It is an awfully "white" sport.

    Ron

  11. In article <[email hidden]>, Bill H.
    says...
    I think every sport, in fact,

    Quoted message said:

    tends to be played by one group more than the other. I don't think
    this is bad - just the way things are.

    True and it varies over time. At on time boxing was dominated by Jews, followed
    by Christian whites, blacks. Currently Hispanics are well represented.

  12. : Could overlap with social class issues. Possibly in poorer neighborhoods,
    as
    : in poorer countries, bikes are used as transport because people do not
    have
    : the option of cars. So when they become upwardly mobile, they eschew what
    : they see as symbols of poverty. Among social elites, instead, the bike is
    : seen as ecological, intellectual and aware. People take it for granted
    that
    : they _can_ afford cars, and therefore the bike is the conscious choice of
    : the green and handsome and fit and hip.

    Hell, I can't even get my sons to ride bikes. One of them said, "You do
    know that cars have been invented, right?"

    Pat in TX

  13. "Chris Neary" <[email hidden] > wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    You're right that most cycling clubs demographics skew heavily Caucasian
    (FWIW, I suspect Asians are also underrepresented).

    I see lots of people of East Asian background cycling in the Seattle area,
    but then again, there's a pretty high population to draw on. If I were to
    further generalize, the most common sub-eth of this broad category is
    members of the Japanese-American sensei and yonsei generations. George, the
    guy I did a one-day STP with a couple years back is in this group, as is my
    old cycling friend Lester.

    --
    Warm Regards,

    Claire Petersky
    Home of the meditative cyclist:
    http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm
    Personal page: http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/
    See the books I've set free at:
    http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

  14. "Peter Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    The people I know who do physical work seem to prefer non-physical
    recreations (like fishing). Almost all the cyclists I know have
    non-physical (desk) jobs.

    I would also add -- people who do physical work for their jobs are also
    people who prefer motorized versions of the non-motorized sports that desk
    job people like. Think: snow mobiling vs. cross-country skiing; motorcycling
    vs. bicycling; paddling vs. jetskis; sailing vs. motor-boating. It makes
    sense, really.

    Quoted message said:

    The few black club cyclists I know are all
    like me: middle-aged, middle-class, college-educated, desk-jockys.

    Ditto. When I first started riding here in Seattle, I rode with a group in
    which I was the only white person, and still everyone was in that catagory
    above.

    I'd also note that I think that cycling is associated with poverty in many
    black communities -- something you did because you couldn't afford a car. As
    a result, cycling is an anti-status activity.

    As long as I'm in the process of generalizing -- a friend of mine has this
    theory about riding in rural areas of Washington State. He believes that in
    areas where the predominate economic activity is logging, motorists treat
    cyclists badly. Where the predominate economic activity is agriculture,
    motorists do not treat cyclists badly. Does this theory bear out in your
    experience? If so, why do you think it is?

    --
    Warm Regards,

    Claire Petersky
    Home of the meditative cyclist:
    http://home.earthlink.net/~cpetersky/Welcome.htm
    Personal page: http://www.geocities.com/cpetersky/
    See the books I've set free at:
    http://bookcrossing.com/referral/Cpetersky

  15. Buck said:

    I think it is important
    to discuss the issues so we can understand *why* these things happen
    and perhaps do something about it.

    Excellent post. Seriously.

    And since you're not the president of Harvard, you may get away with
    it! ;-)

  16. "Brendon M. Troy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "Gooserider" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Where are all the black riders? What is it about our sport


    that makes it

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    so unappealing to an entire race of people?

    3) Our sport is very expensive. $2000 bicycle is far more


    expensive than a

    Quoted message said:

    basketball and a pair of Nikes.

    Are you KIDDING me??? Did you, not an apparent troll, really just
    say that in a public forum?


    Are you actually going to argue that black people do not have an affinity
    for basketball? Have you seen a basketball game? Basketball is the favorite
    sport of black people by a large margin. Its popularity is no doubt due to
    the fact that it is very inexpensive to play, and regardless of your
    hypersensitivity, a disproportionately large number of black people are
    economically disadvantaged. What is your problem?

  17. Chris Zacho 'The Wheelman said:


    Where are all the black riders? What is it about our sport that makes


    it

    Quoted message said:

    so unappealing to an entire race of people?

    Anybody have any theories?

    Let me ask about one dark possibility.

    To become proficient at cycling, one has to spend a certain amount of
    time doing it alone, unless you've got a close friend or spouse to
    accompany you all the time. You generally can't even start with club
    rides; most people won't keep up until they've logged some miles.

    Is there a chance that black folks feel too vulnerable out on the road
    alone? FWIW, I once lived in an area of the country where that might
    have been reasonable. (That's one of the reasons I left.)

    I've heard women complain about the same problem, and even some male
    posters here have expressed a surprising amount of fear of hostile
    attacks.

    I'm a pale male, myself, so - like the president of Harvard - I'm just
    speculating.

  18. "Chris Zacho "The Wheelman"" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    [email hidden] (Gooserider) wrote:

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    3) Our sport is very expensive. a $2000
    bicycle is far more expensive than a
    basketball and a pair of Nikes.


    </snip>

    Sorryt bout the double post, my finger slipped.

    Who needs a $2000 bike ? Maybe if you're seriously into competition,
    perhaps considering going pro, maybe, but you don't need to go overboard
    for an ordinary club ride. Hell, I've done fine for years, pulling off
    single, double, and even triple centuries on a Schwinn valued at _maybe_
    $400-$500.

    Hey, I ride a $600 Schwinn, too. But have you been to a bike shop lately?
    There is definitely a snob factor evident in cycling. I see far more
    affordable hybrids in my LBS than affordable road bikes. The affordable road
    bikes are made, but they're not huge sellers. People tend to get all hopped
    up on Lance and buy what he rides.

    Quoted message said:

    As for the "status factor", I would think that being able to fork out
    $2000+ "just for a bicycle" would qualify very nicely.


    I am considering ordering a custom Rivendell. It's going to be $3500-$4000,
    but it will take two years to build, so I can do it in installments. When I
    tell non-cycling friends they're flabbergasted. There is no status in having
    an expensive bicycle---except to other cyclists. If you spend that much on a
    bike you're considered a weirdo. :-)

  19. "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Chris Zacho 'The Wheelman said:

    I have been riding for over 30 years now. I've been the member of many
    clubs, large and small, on both coasts and in the middle. I've been to
    and done many organized rides (short, long and "are you nuts?"😉 and
    bike rallies boasting attendances ranging from the hundreds to the
    thousands.

    Yet at any one of these organizations or events, I could count the
    total number of "Afro-American" riders with the fingers of one hand.

    One hand? Dang!

    Quoted message said:

    The portion of South Carolina where I live now, according to the
    latest census, has a population that is about 60% black. Yet the
    local club, which has nearly 100 members, to my knowledge has only
    one black cyclist. Hardly an accurate representation of the
    population at large.

    You must be down in the low country. I'm in Upstate SC. Sadly, the


    numbers

    Quoted message said:

    here aren't much better (should be ever lower, though). On organized


    rides

    Quoted message said:

    up here, I've seen maybe five (at most) other black folks, and one was a
    girl. Two guys I saw seemed to be pretty skilled riders, whereas I'm a
    noob. I saw one guy (who claims to have a twin brother who rides, but I
    think he was pulling my leg) on different charity ride events.

    Quoted message said:


    In fact, I'll be willing to bet, that out of all the posters on this
    board, only one, maybe two, max. are black.

    Dang! Does that mean I'm just about the only black poster here?

    Quoted message said:

    If indeed anybody here is.
    Where are all the black riders? What is it about our sport that makes
    it so unappealing to an entire race of people?

    Quoted message said:


    Anybody have any theories?

    Well, I don't claim to have any answers beyond the obvious: Be like Mike.

    I personally have no interest in organized team sports, other than


    cycling,

    Quoted message said:

    which I discovered only recently.

    I see lots of black guys playing golf on a course along one of my riding
    routes. Of course, lots of black guys go to the gym to lift weights and
    play basket and racquetball.

    I predict that the numbers will increase, though. I'm a regular on the
    roads around here and I got my last girlfriend into it. Maybe I can draw


    my

    Quoted message said:

    current girlfriend it, but she's pretty committed to running, so maybe


    not.

    Quoted message said:

    The LA thingie will draw some more in, too, maybe.


    Hey, you better watch it, Roger. You keep making generalizations about black
    guys liking to lift weights and play basketball and Brendon's going to
    insinuate you're a racist. :-)

  20. "Rich Clark" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Chris Zacho "The Wheelman"" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    I have been riding for over 30 years now. I've been the member of many
    clubs, large and small, on both coasts and in the middle. I've been to
    and done many organized rides (short, long and "are you nuts?"😉 and bike
    rallies boasting attendances ranging from the hundreds to the thousands.

    Quoted message said:

    Yet at any one of these organizations or events, I could count the total
    number of "Afro-American" riders with the fingers of one hand.

    And yet, riding to and from work every day (which is as organized as *I*
    ever get about riding) I see blacks represented in roughly the same
    proportion as they exist in the general local population.

    Quoted message said:

    The
    portion of South Carolina where I live now, according to the latest
    census, has a population that is about 60% black. Yet the local club,
    which has nearly 100 members, to my knowledge has only one black
    cyclist. Hardly an accurate representation of the population at large.

    In fact, I'll be willing to bet, that out of all the posters on this
    board, only one, maybe two, max. are black. If indeed anybody here is.
    Where are all the black riders? What is it about our sport that makes it
    so unappealing to an entire race of people?

    Anybody have any theories?

    My theory is that some people don't find it necessary to pay dues, join
    organizations, and wear uniforms in order to ride a bicycle.

    My theory is the black people you're seeing on bikes are riding for
    transportation because they have no other means of transportation. I see two
    distinct classes of white cyclists where I live. There are enthusiasts,
    those riding LBS bikes and wearing the gear, riding for the experience of
    riding. Then there are the DUI cyclists riding 'mart bikes or old road bikes
    with inverted drop bars, usually with a rear rack/milk crate combination.
    They ride because they have to, not because they want to. That's the rub.
    :-)

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