"Whites Only"?

"Chris Zacho "The Wheelman"" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

And to the one that implied that I was trying to "start

something",

Quoted message said:

you're right, and it seems I did. What inspired it up was a

discussion I

Quoted message said:

heard at the bike shop by a customer who was under the

impression that

Quoted message said:

bicycling was somehow like baseball in the pre-Jackie

Robinson days.

Quoted message said:

That we, as cyclists, simply didn't welcome blacks.

Cycling's a great solo sport, so I don't think whether other
cyclists were welcoming or not would make much difference.

Certainly in Chicago you see a considerable number of
Afro-American cyclists, but less than one would expect.

To a certain extent I would think this is cultural:
1. Afro-Americans are less likely to attend college,
particularly those nice campuses where you do without a car
and bike around campus.
2. I would guess -- but don't know -- that the general
attitude of "people only bike ride if they can't drive" would
be particularly common among lower income groups. In higher
income groups, there's more ability either to buy an expen$ive
bike (turning the attitude on its head) or simply ride a bike
out of a sort of reverse snobbery.

maxo said:

Neil Brooks said:

I think it's incendiary
based on the potential for ill-conceived, mean spirited responses that
are based more in ignorance, prejudice, preconception, or bigotry than
in any semblance of fact.

It also gives us to potential to laugh at our ridiculous, mostly pale,
lycra-wearing selves.

I resemble that remark... ;-)

Quoted message said:

Perhaps it's because I grew up a really square white guy in a black
neighborhood, or maybe I'm just insensitive--but I find laughing about our
cultural differences to be quite healthy and cathartic. Serious
discussions about race have their place, but I'd rather point out the fact
that I can't dance.

I agree entirely. The healthiest relationships between cultural
groups I've seen are those where the members of those groups aren't
walking around trying to spot a demon under every rock. The Navy guys
I worked with in Key West were a really great example of that - lots
of banter, no hard feelings.

As for the why there aren't more black cyclists? I dunno, but it's
always been that way - remember the scene from 'American Flyers'?

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Gooserider said:

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Chris Zacho 'The Wheelman said:

I have been riding for over 30 years now. I've been the member of
many clubs, large and small, on both coasts and in the middle.
I've been to and done many organized rides (short, long and "are
you nuts?"😉 and bike rallies boasting attendances ranging from the
hundreds to the thousands.

Yet at any one of these organizations or events, I could count the
total number of "Afro-American" riders with the fingers of one
hand.

One hand? Dang!

Quoted message said:

The portion of South Carolina where I live now, according to the
latest census, has a population that is about 60% black. Yet the
local club, which has nearly 100 members, to my knowledge has only
one black cyclist. Hardly an accurate representation of the
population at large.

You must be down in the low country. I'm in Upstate SC. Sadly, the

numbers

Quoted message said:

here aren't much better (should be ever lower, though). On organized

rides

Quoted message said:

up here, I've seen maybe five (at most) other black folks, and one
was a girl. Two guys I saw seemed to be pretty skilled riders,
whereas I'm a noob. I saw one guy (who claims to have a twin
brother who rides, but I think he was pulling my leg) on different
charity ride events.

Quoted message said:

In fact, I'll be willing to bet, that out of all the posters on
this board, only one, maybe two, max. are black.

Dang! Does that mean I'm just about the only black poster here?

Quoted message said:

If indeed anybody here is.
Where are all the black riders? What is it about our sport that
makes it so unappealing to an entire race of people?

Quoted message said:

Anybody have any theories?

Well, I don't claim to have any answers beyond the obvious: Be like
Mike.

I personally have no interest in organized team sports, other than

cycling,

Quoted message said:

which I discovered only recently.

I see lots of black guys playing golf on a course along one of my
riding routes. Of course, lots of black guys go to the gym to lift
weights and play basket and racquetball.

I predict that the numbers will increase, though. I'm a regular on
the roads around here and I got my last girlfriend into it. Maybe I
can draw

my

Quoted message said:

current girlfriend it, but she's pretty committed to running, so
maybe

not.

Quoted message said:

The LA thingie will draw some more in, too, maybe.

Hey, you better watch it, Roger. You keep making generalizations
about black guys liking to lift weights and play basketball and
Brendon's going to insinuate you're a racist. :-)

🙂 Yeah. I thought about that. I don't play basketball (or football) but I
do lift weights. But those other guys play racquetball. Go figure. 🙂

Pat said:

: Could overlap with social class issues. Possibly in poorer
: neighborhoods,
as
: in poorer countries, bikes are used as transport because people do
: not
have
: the option of cars. So when they become upwardly mobile, they eschew
: what they see as symbols of poverty. Among social elites, instead,
: the bike is seen as ecological, intellectual and aware. People take
: it for granted
that
: they _can_ afford cars, and therefore the bike is the conscious
: choice of the green and handsome and fit and hip.

Hell, I can't even get my sons to ride bikes. One of them said, "You
do know that cars have been invented, right?"

🙂

Quoted message said:

Chris Zacho 'The Wheelman said:

Where are all the black riders? What is it about our sport that makes

it

Quoted message said:

so unappealing to an entire race of people?

Anybody have any theories?

Let me ask about one dark possibility.

To become proficient at cycling, one has to spend a certain amount of
time doing it alone, unless you've got a close friend or spouse to
accompany you all the time. You generally can't even start with club
rides; most people won't keep up until they've logged some miles.

Is there a chance that black folks feel too vulnerable out on the road
alone? FWIW, I once lived in an area of the country where that might
have been reasonable. (That's one of the reasons I left.)

I have to admit that these kinds of thoughts always creep into my head on my
solo rides. I just ignore them and keep going.

I don't know the reason, but I do know it is a much broader question than
just bicycles. I happen to belong to a woodturning club. Guess what? We
don't have any black members, and only an occasional Asian. I have been in
the group for several years, and I am as convinced as I could be that it is
not due to prejudice. Everyone is welcome in the group, and , in fact, we
have tried to figure out how to achieve more diversity.

Whatever it is, I am convinced that it is a combination of factors,
including some cultural, some historic, some economic, and some probably
unknown, at least to the lay public. Surely, a question as important as
this has been studied--does anyone know?

Gooserider said:

"Chris Zacho "The Wheelman"" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Gooserider) wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

3) Our sport is very expensive. a $2000
bicycle is far more expensive than a
basketball and a pair of Nikes.

</snip>

Sorryt bout the double post, my finger slipped.

Who needs a $2000 bike ? Maybe if you're seriously into competition,
perhaps considering going pro, maybe, but you don't need to go
overboard for an ordinary club ride. Hell, I've done fine for years,
pulling off single, double, and even triple centuries on a Schwinn
valued at _maybe_ $400-$500.

Hey, I ride a $600 Schwinn, too. But have you been to a bike shop
lately? There is definitely a snob factor evident in cycling. I see
far more affordable hybrids in my LBS than affordable road bikes. The
affordable road bikes are made, but they're not huge sellers. People
tend to get all hopped up on Lance and buy what he rides.

Quoted message said:

As for the "status factor", I would think that being able to fork out
$2000+ "just for a bicycle" would qualify very nicely.

I am considering ordering a custom Rivendell. It's going to be
$3500-$4000, but it will take two years to build, so I can do it in
installments. When I tell non-cycling friends they're flabbergasted.
There is no status in having an expensive bicycle---except to other
cyclists. If you spend that much on a bike you're considered a
weirdo. :-)

Definitely.

In article <[email hidden]>,

RonSonic said:

(Tom Keats) said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

RonSonic said:

The OP was, I am sure, being deliberately provocative. But did manage to
stay
IMO in fair territory while making a feint for the sideline you were
covering.
We'll see if he actually had a point beyond seeing if he could get other
people
to argue.

Nah, Chris has posted to the newsgroup for quite a while, and
I know he's no troll. I'm sure he has genuinely perceived a
dearth of black cyclists (particularly in club circles,) and
he sincerely and innocently wonders why that is.

I've similarly noticed in my own local experience how
pre-college-aged youth appears to be under-represented
among cyclists, although there seems to be a recent trend
away from that.

Competitive cycling has suck all for a youth program. Yeah, yeah, you hear
about
such things, but mostly they don't much give a [censored] beyond finding out who's
likely to go to the Junior worlds next year.

If you don't get 10 year olds to think it's cool you won't have 14 year olds
with an interest or 16 year olds with a chance.

Locally, believe it or not, the youth development system is remarkably
good, at least by North American standards.

My own club has more than 20 members in its development club, and there
are others. I think a certain amount of draw in Vancouver happens from
the avid mountain-biking scene: there is even a high-school mountain
bike racing league, plus tons of recreational mountain bikers.

It's not impossible to build up a youth program: it just takes patience
and effort.

Cycling, especially racing, is a reasonably expensive, elitist sport.
The equipment costs are pretty dire; up in golf territory, though
perhaps with slightly better green fees. What I see grossly
overrepresented in my own club are comfortably well-off professionals.
Several lawyers, an entrepreneur, a property developer, an architect, an
aerospace engineer, some teachers, and then a bunch of rather fast
youngsters who are typically still in university. Precious few
construction workers. I'm the poor and stupid (and slow) member of the
club, since I only have an arts degree and work as a computer tech.

The demographics probably change when you peek into the semi-pro clubs
locally, which are largely composed of young, strong riders, but even
they probably got into racing while going to university (only natural,
since the Tuesday night crits happen at the biggest local university).

Demographically, cycling is golf for people with bad knees and a desire
for fitness.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com
Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.

Leo Lichtman said:

I don't know the reason, but I do know it is a much broader question

than

Quoted message said:

just bicycles. I happen to belong to a woodturning club. Guess

what? We

Quoted message said:

don't have any black members, and only an occasional Asian. I have

been in

Quoted message said:

the group for several years, and I am as convinced as I could be that

it is

Quoted message said:

not due to prejudice. Everyone is welcome in the group, and , in

fact, we

Quoted message said:

have tried to figure out how to achieve more diversity.

Whatever it is, I am convinced that it is a combination of factors,
including some cultural, some historic, some economic, and some

probably

Quoted message said:

unknown, at least to the lay public. Surely, a question as important

as

Quoted message said:

this has been studied--does anyone know?

I don't mean to single out Leo as the only offender- he may not be an
offender and even if he is, he's hardly alone- but IMO the unspoken
assumption that diversity is a goal to be "achieved" is silly. It's not
unlike the idea that having a positive self-image is a worthy thing of
itself. Treating all people fairly as individuals and deserving a
positive self-image are what should count, not some artificial and
paternalistic attitude, "We need diversity" or "We have to be sure
Junior feels good about himself".

Regards,
Bob Hunt

For sale or lease: One soapbox, slightly used. <g>

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Chris Zacho 'The Wheelman said:

Where are all the black riders? What is it about our sport that makes

it

Quoted message said:

so unappealing to an entire race of people?

Anybody have any theories?

Let me ask about one dark possibility.

To become proficient at cycling, one has to spend a certain amount of
time doing it alone, unless you've got a close friend or spouse to
accompany you all the time. You generally can't even start with club
rides; most people won't keep up until they've logged some miles.

Is there a chance that black folks feel too vulnerable out on the road
alone? FWIW, I once lived in an area of the country where that might
have been reasonable. (That's one of the reasons I left.)

I've heard women complain about the same problem, and even some male
posters here have expressed a surprising amount of fear of hostile
attacks.

I'm a pale male, myself, so - like the president of Harvard - I'm just
speculating.

Frank, I'm as white as they come(well, tan in the summer...) and I've had my
share of abuse and scary moments. Brushed by cars, hit with beer cans, wolf
whistles from rednecks, chased by pit bulls, you name it. It's not just
blacks and women who have problems out there. You've cycled thousands more
miles than I have, so surely you've seen it also.

This effect has been seen in church attendance also. In large cities
with several churches of the same denomination and large numbers of
different racial groups, people will go by a nearby church to attend
another with their racial group in the majority. Ministers have asked
their members to attend other churches on occasion so they can meet
other people in the same denomination, but have had very few people go
to other churches.

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Chris Zacho 'The Wheelman said:

Where are all the black riders? What is it about our sport that makes

it

Quoted message said:

so unappealing to an entire race of people?

Anybody have any theories?

Let me ask about one dark possibility.

To become proficient at cycling, one has to spend a certain amount of
time doing it alone, unless you've got a close friend or spouse to
accompany you all the time. You generally can't even start with club
rides; most people won't keep up until they've logged some miles.

Is there a chance that black folks feel too vulnerable out on the road
alone? FWIW, I once lived in an area of the country where that might
have been reasonable. (That's one of the reasons I left.)

I have to admit that these kinds of thoughts always creep into my head on
my
solo rides. I just ignore them and keep going.

Roger,

I have some black friends in Clemson and Anderson who are nervous about
riding IN A CAR through the rural areas of many South Carolina counties.
To be perfectly honest, I would understand completely if you didn't feel
comfortable riding on the roads down here where I live. There are plenty of
really sweet folks. Unfortunately, there are also still plenty of Bubbas
with rebel flags, too.

--
Bob C.

"Of course it hurts. The trick is not minding that it hurts."
T. E. Lawrence (of Arabia)

Claire Petersky

Quoted message said:

As long as I'm in the process of generalizing -- a friend of mine
has this theory about riding in rural areas of Washington State.
He believes that inareas where the predominate economic
activity is logging, motorists treat cyclists badly. Where the
predominate economic activity is agriculture, motorists do
not treat cyclists badly. Does this theory bear out in your
experience? If so, why do you think it is?

This is just speculation on my part, but then so is most everything on
this thread. I grew up in a farming area and I recall often being stuck
behind a tractor or other piece of farm equipment for a few minutes.
Everyone recognized the use of the roads to move such equipment from place
to place as legitimate and necessary, so they didn't get upset if it added
a couple of minutes to their trip. Maybe that attitude carries over to
being patient about having to slow down briefly before finding a safe
place to pass a bicycle. On the other hand, while I know cyclists of all
political persuasions, I think we are often seen as having "green"
tendencies by the general public. Loggers (and whole communities that
depend on logging) may view environmentalism as threatening their
livelihoods and take their anger out on cyclists as symbols of
anti-logging policies. And, of course, it's a lot tougher to safely pass a
bike in a logging truck than a pickup truck.

--
Paul Turner

Gooserider said:

Frank, I'm as white as they come(well, tan in the summer...) and I've

had my

Quoted message said:

share of abuse and scary moments. Brushed by cars, hit with beer

cans, wolf

Quoted message said:

whistles from rednecks, chased by pit bulls, you name it. It's not

just

Quoted message said:

blacks and women who have problems out there. You've cycled thousands

more

Quoted message said:

miles than I have, so surely you've seen it also.

I've gotten a little of that, of course, but in my experience it's
rare. In a 2500 to 3000 mile year, I might get yelled at ten times
(big deal), but even a tossed beer can comes only once every five years
or so. IOW, these things are rare enough that I just don't let them
bother me.

My point was this: To most motorized yahoos, I'm just another guy on a
bike - in their minds, deserving a catcall but nothing worse. But if I
were black or female, I might fear that they'd be more physically
aggressive.

Of the readers who are not white males, let me ask: How frequent are
minor harrassments? How frequent are harassments that are really
troubling?

Bob said:

I don't mean to single out Leo as the only offender- he may not be an
offender and even if he is, he's hardly alone- but IMO the unspoken
assumption that diversity is a goal to be "achieved" is silly. It's not
unlike the idea that having a positive self-image is a worthy thing of
itself. Treating all people fairly as individuals and deserving a
positive self-image are what should count, not some artificial and
paternalistic attitude, "We need diversity" or "We have to be sure
Junior feels good about himself".

Excellent point. As with most things in life, the "goal" should be to
remove any and all obstacles, and let the rest take care of itself.

FWIW, it's painfully obvious that human beings are clustering animals
- we tend to hang out with those who are like us. That in and of
itself isn't a bad thing - just the way we're wired. It can be
uncomfortable to join in a group that's homogeneous with the glaring
exception of you, even if that group goes out of its way to make you
welcome. That applies whether you're the only black cyclist in a lily
white Sunday morning group ride, or the sole white guy in a pick up
basketball game (or I suppose the only guy with teeth on the hockey
team). ;-)

Luckily, there seems to be a fairly low threshold for overcoming this
tendency - in my church, just a few years ago there were only a few
non-whites attending (out of a total of over 1,000 on a given Sunday).
There were certainly no barriers, but for whatever reason not many
people of color showed up. Slowly, more started attending, and now
there's a much more representative mix in the congregation including
many black, Asian, Hispanic and Indian attendees. No changes to the
organization - all it took was for the first few brave "pioneers" to
enter the white bread zone, and that seemed to make it more
comfortable for those who followed.

I suspect it's the same with cycling - if we can get just a few
<insert demographic here> to regularly attend our interval sessions
and weekend century rides, the self-leveling will follow.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Roger Zoul said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is there a chance that black folks feel too vulnerable out on the road
alone? FWIW, I once lived in an area of the country where that might
have been reasonable. (That's one of the reasons I left.)

I have to admit that these kinds of thoughts always creep into my head on my
solo rides. I just ignore them and keep going.

Good for you... I once lived in an Asian country where (for various
reasons) there were spikes of anti-Western sentiments. I too had to
consider the possibility that someone might feel it prudent to reduce
the Western population in that country by one with a twitch of the
steering wheel, but didn't let that stop me either.

The way I look at it, if prejudice keeps you from doing what you want
to do, the weenies win, and we can't have that! Sadly, we live in a
world where we can legislate equality (which is a good thing), but we
can't legislate the attitude of the individual. Hopefully those who
are truly warped will die off and not pass along the behaviors to
their offspring.

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $695 ti frame

Quoted message said:

Chris Zacho 'The Wheelman said:

Where are all the black riders? What is it about our sport that makes

it

Quoted message said:

so unappealing to an entire race of people?

Anybody have any theories?

Let me ask about one dark possibility.

To become proficient at cycling, one has to spend a certain amount of
time doing it alone, unless you've got a close friend or spouse to
accompany you all the time. You generally can't even start with club
rides; most people won't keep up until they've logged some miles.

Is there a chance that black folks feel too vulnerable out on the road
alone? FWIW, I once lived in an area of the country where that might
have been reasonable. (That's one of the reasons I left.)

I've heard women complain about the same problem, and even some male
posters here have expressed a surprising amount of fear of hostile
attacks.

I'm a pale male, myself, so - like the president of Harvard - I'm just
speculating.

People of all colors come in all the ranges of boldness. I recall a couple of
black guys who worked for me once teasing another for being afraid to go too far
north, like past Hillsborough Avenue. Some people, especially those raised in a
ghetto environment (mentality) are bashful about being elsewhere. Frankly, that
ghetto mentality is IMO a significant part of the economic problem in those
areas. Look at the common whine that there are "no good jobs in the
neighborhood." Who the hell wants commercial and industrial [censored] in their
neighborhoods - people who are afraid to leave the comfortable boundaries of
their neighborhood. The rest of us would rather drive, bike or take a bus.
Anyway, only a small portion of blacks are subject to that sort of affliction.
Don't let their over-representation by the louder voices confuse the issue.

I will say that hitting the open road on a bike is different feeling - it is
exhilarating. And whatever one person finds exhilarating another must consider
terrifying. The open road just feels different from pedaling around say a Rail
to Trail even if the cyclocomputer and the HRM say it's the same ride, it isn't.
Maybe it's just knowing that you can just keep going at will and be gone if you
so choose, I don't know. It is a very Bilboesque thing to know that you are on a
road that can take you somewhere very much else.

Ron

Mark Hickey said:

Roger Zoul said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is there a chance that black folks feel too vulnerable out on the road
alone? FWIW, I once lived in an area of the country where that might
have been reasonable. (That's one of the reasons I left.)

I have to admit that these kinds of thoughts always creep into my head on my
solo rides. I just ignore them and keep going.

Good for you... I once lived in an Asian country where (for various
reasons) there were spikes of anti-Western sentiments. I too had to
consider the possibility that someone might feel it prudent to reduce
the Western population in that country by one with a twitch of the
steering wheel, but didn't let that stop me either.

The way I look at it, if prejudice keeps you from doing what you want
to do, the weenies win, and we can't have that! Sadly, we live in a
world where we can legislate equality (which is a good thing), but we
can't legislate the attitude of the individual. Hopefully those who
are truly warped will die off and not pass along the behaviors to
their offspring.

Last year in St Petersburg, Fla, the KKK held a rally. The turn out of Klansmen,
NeoNaz, fellow travellers, sympathizers and immediate family was five (5).
That's right, the Klan held a rally and got five people to show up. There were
about 40 newsmen and 200 some counter-protesters. Even that was a historically
low turnout since the Klan isn't even worth protesting anymore.

Evil really hates being yawned at.

Ron

Quoted message said:

Gooserider said:

Frank, I'm as white as they come(well, tan in the summer...) and I've

had my

Quoted message said:

share of abuse and scary moments. Brushed by cars, hit with beer

cans, wolf

Quoted message said:

whistles from rednecks, chased by pit bulls, you name it. It's not

just

Quoted message said:

blacks and women who have problems out there. You've cycled thousands

more

Quoted message said:

miles than I have, so surely you've seen it also.

I've gotten a little of that, of course, but in my experience it's
rare. In a 2500 to 3000 mile year, I might get yelled at ten times
(big deal), but even a tossed beer can comes only once every five
years or so. IOW, these things are rare enough that I just don't let
them bother me.

My point was this: To most motorized yahoos, I'm just another guy on a
bike - in their minds, deserving a catcall but nothing worse. But if
I were black or female, I might fear that they'd be more physically
aggressive.

Of the readers who are not white males, let me ask: How frequent are
minor harrassments? How frequent are harassments that are really
troubling?

I did 2400 miles last year starting in mid April. During that time, I've
only had one event that bothered me. A Sunday morning, I'm on my first
major road ride with a buddy who has a lot more experience (20+ years and a
white guy) than I. We're riding along a narrow road and a car comes up
behind us very quickly. Before we could get all the way to the side (okay,
I was perhaps too far in the lane, but it was a narrow lane), the driver of
the car pushes down hard and long on the horn. Scared me crazy! Turns out,
it was a good-looking black lady going to Sunday morning worship! If I
could have caught up the her, she'd have gotten a piece of my mind (and I
probably would have asked for her number, too, after I'd laid that big guilt
trip on her! 🙂 )

On Sat, 5 Mar 2005 07:48:07 -0500, "psycholist" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Chris Zacho "The Wheelman" wrote:
>
> Where are all the black riders? What is it about our sport that makes
it
> so unappealing to an entire race of people?
>
> Anybody have any theories?
>

Let me ask about one dark possibility.

To become proficient at cycling, one has to spend a certain amount of
time doing it alone, unless you've got a close friend or spouse to
accompany you all the time. You generally can't even start with club
rides; most people won't keep up until they've logged some miles.

Is there a chance that black folks feel too vulnerable out on the road
alone? FWIW, I once lived in an area of the country where that might
have been reasonable. (That's one of the reasons I left.)

I have to admit that these kinds of thoughts always creep into my head on
my
solo rides. I just ignore them and keep going.

Roger,

I have some black friends in Clemson and Anderson who are nervous about
riding IN A CAR through the rural areas of many South Carolina counties.
To be perfectly honest, I would understand completely if you didn't feel
comfortable riding on the roads down here where I live. There are plenty of
really sweet folks. Unfortunately, there are also still plenty of Bubbas
with rebel flags, too.

That's what I was thinking. If black people in nice cars are getting
stopped by police on the way from work, imagine black people on nice
bikes in the country.

Gee, and I thought that now that Arabs and middle eastern types are
being hassled, black people would be left alone! On a tangent, i know
someone who was actually hassled by law enforcement because of her
last name which sounds arabic but is actually israeli and she's
jewish! It was actually her married name. Sigh...