Achilles pain

holmbrew said:

Could this be some sort of tendonitis?

yes

Quoted message said:

Is this common?

yes

Quoted message said:

I am not new to
running, but I am putting on more miles that I have in the past few
years in preparation for a 50 mile trail race in June.

Any suggestions? Remedies?

ice, reduction in training load (especially speed work/racing but also
milage), crosstraining.

It might help to take a short break (1 week or so). Beyond that, rest doesn't
seem to give you much more than you'd get by just reducing your training load
a little.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Thanks Donovan. I try icing it and back off on the traing for a week.

Donovan Rebbechi said:

holmbrew said:

Could this be some sort of tendonitis?

yes

Quoted message said:

Is this common?

yes

Quoted message said:

I am not new to
running, but I am putting on more miles that I have in the past few
years in preparation for a 50 mile trail race in June.

Any suggestions? Remedies?

ice, reduction in training load (especially speed work/racing but also
milage), crosstraining.

It might help to take a short break (1 week or so). Beyond that, rest doesn't
seem to give you much more than you'd get by just reducing your training load
a little.

Cheers,

holmbrew said:

I have recently noticed some pain near the top of my Achilles on mt
left ankle. It is accompanied by a bit of stiffness. I don't really
notice it after I get about a mile of so into my runs, but it is
certainly noticeable afterwards and on my off days.

Here are some lessons I've learned over 24 yrs and 70k miles...

1. Inflammation is part of the healing process. Avoid aspirin, advil and
other nsaids. They mask pain and interfere with the natural inflammation
process. They may actually impair tendon healing (got this from an
orthopedist).

2. Ice is magical. Use one of those freezer-pack flexible and reusable ice
packs.

3. Ice for a couple of minutes, or until it starts to hurt. Be careful not
to burn the skin. I put a plastic grocery bag over the pack to prevent
burning.

4. Let the area warm up a bit, and repeat. (usually after 5 minutes).

5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 every few hours throughout the day. If you wake up
during the middle of the night, do it then, too. The more times you do
this, the faster it will heal. Really. I've been unable to run on day 1,
and iced 6 times and been fine on day 2.

Quoted message said:

Could this be some sort of tendonitis? Is this common?

It's just overuse. Sounds like a mild case.

In my case, it's usually caused by running too many hill days back to back,
such as 3 days in a row of over 3500' of moderately hard climbing. I
learned to nestle relatively flat days between hill days, and I've been
trouble free the last couple of years.

When younger, I hurt my Achilles pretty bad doing too-fast 440 intervals on
cement (66-67 seconds).

If you run slow on flat surfaces (preferably dirt) for a few days after the
pain subsides, you can reintroduce hills (gently at first).

Quoted message said:

I am not new
to running, but I am putting on more miles that I have in the past few
years in preparation for a 50 mile trail race in June.

Whew, that's a long time to prepare! Don't overwork too far in advance.
I've run 6 ultras this year, including 2 50 milers. Fiftys are an
adventure, good luck.

-- Dan

Dan,

Thanks for the advice. I am actually hoping to run two marathons prior
to the 50, and I know I am a bit ahead of the game...but I am too damn
excited to slow down. I'll pack on the miles slowly and try the ice
therapy. I know there will be some down time prior to the 50 because my
first daughter is due to arrive at the end of January, so that may force
me to slow down a bit.

Would you mind sharing your typical "ultra" training schedule. From like
ramp up to race day, preparing for a 50, i guess. What's your longest
run? What sort of hill and speed work do you factor in? What sort of
weekly mileage to you shoot for at the peak of you training cycle?

Thanks,
Jason

Dan Stumpus said:

holmbrew said:

I have recently noticed some pain near the top of my Achilles on mt
left ankle. It is accompanied by a bit of stiffness. I don't really
notice it after I get about a mile of so into my runs, but it is
certainly noticeable afterwards and on my off days.

Here are some lessons I've learned over 24 yrs and 70k miles...

1. Inflammation is part of the healing process. Avoid aspirin, advil and
other nsaids. They mask pain and interfere with the natural inflammation
process. They may actually impair tendon healing (got this from an
orthopedist).

2. Ice is magical. Use one of those freezer-pack flexible and reusable ice
packs.

3. Ice for a couple of minutes, or until it starts to hurt. Be careful not
to burn the skin. I put a plastic grocery bag over the pack to prevent
burning.

4. Let the area warm up a bit, and repeat. (usually after 5 minutes).

5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 every few hours throughout the day. If you wake up
during the middle of the night, do it then, too. The more times you do
this, the faster it will heal. Really. I've been unable to run on day 1,
and iced 6 times and been fine on day 2.

Quoted message said:

Could this be some sort of tendonitis? Is this common?

It's just overuse. Sounds like a mild case.

In my case, it's usually caused by running too many hill days back to back,
such as 3 days in a row of over 3500' of moderately hard climbing. I
learned to nestle relatively flat days between hill days, and I've been
trouble free the last couple of years.

When younger, I hurt my Achilles pretty bad doing too-fast 440 intervals on
cement (66-67 seconds).

If you run slow on flat surfaces (preferably dirt) for a few days after the
pain subsides, you can reintroduce hills (gently at first).

Quoted message said:

I am not new
to running, but I am putting on more miles that I have in the past few
years in preparation for a 50 mile trail race in June.

Whew, that's a long time to prepare! Don't overwork too far in advance.
I've run 6 ultras this year, including 2 50 milers. Fiftys are an
adventure, good luck.

-- Dan

Jason:
Your Achilles tendon pain could be caused by several different things,
or a combination of things. For example: increasing your distance,
speed or hill work too quickly; worn out, new, or ill-fitting (arch,
heel, etc.) running shoes, side effect of medication, etc. Check out
the Cause of Achilles Tendon Injury page of www.AchillesTendon.com for
a lot more information.
The same site also has a lot of information on treating Achilles tendon
injuries.
Good luck!
Phoebe

holmbrew said:

Would you mind sharing your typical "ultra" training schedule. From
like ramp up to race day, preparing for a 50, i guess. What's your
longest run? What sort of hill and speed work do you factor in? What
sort of weekly mileage to you shoot for at the peak of you training
cycle?

The other ultra sages on the list (Doug Freeze and Trailrunner) may have a
different take, but here's my philosophy:

1. Ultras are about execution. Pacing is king. My rule of thumb is that I
can usually run a 50 just a bit slower than the pace I run an *easy* 20
miler when in the middle of a training week. (However, I average about 70
mpw -- this may not be good advice for lower mileage runners). This means
that the race feels really easy for the first 20-24 miles, hardly breathing,
then gets progressively harder...

2. If you can finish a marathon in under 4 hours, you can finish a 50. If
you can finish in under 3:30, you can probably run 80-90% of it. If you are
around 3:00, you can most likely run every step on many courses.

3. The most likely source of failure for a first timer (after going out too
fast) is hydration/salt/nutrition. So much can happen when you're running
for 7-10 hours...

For instance, it took me a couple of years to figure out that I need to
drink about 40 oz/hour of sports drink when racing ultras. The price of
dehydration is debilitating leg cramps, and performance decline. This
happens when I lose 4-6 lbs of body weight. The cure is to drink 16-24 oz
quickly and take a Succeed capsule. Then drink more, until you've
rehydrated. In one race, I drank 70 oz in an hour to rehydrate myself when
I started cramping at mile 25 in a 50k.

You need a Succeed salt cap (or equivalent 600mg of sodium) for every 20-30
oz you drink. Some folks who have a low sweating rate get by on salty
snacks. Not me. 600mg is the amount of salt you lose when sweating the
20-30 oz. Get behind in salt, and you get lethargic, mental fog sets in,
and if unlucky, can get very sick or even die. (see hyponatremia).

You'll need to nibble throughout the race. Most ultra guys consume about
300 calories/hour in sports drink + snacks. Snacks should include fat
(settles the stomach and absorbs bile), and protein (absorbs acid) as well
as carbs. In other words, normal food. Eating nothing but carbs will often
cause a queasy stomach.

4. The training is pretty much like marathon training. Long runs, LT runs,
and speedwork over the last 4-6 weeks to sharpen up (if you are a racer).
I'll email you my log of the last 6 weeks before my last 50.

I get by with a 28 mile training run or a 50k 2-5 weeks before the race.
You don't need to kill yourself with long runs, unless you are low mileage,
then they probably help. If you crank up the miles (70+), your aerobic
reserves are pretty high, and there's not as much need to bash yourself with
30 mile runs.

-- Dan

Dan,

Thanks a bunch! This really helps and makes a lot of sense.

-Jason

Dan Stumpus said:

holmbrew said:

Would you mind sharing your typical "ultra" training schedule. From
like ramp up to race day, preparing for a 50, i guess. What's your
longest run? What sort of hill and speed work do you factor in? What
sort of weekly mileage to you shoot for at the peak of you training
cycle?

The other ultra sages on the list (Doug Freeze and Trailrunner) may have a
different take, but here's my philosophy:

1. Ultras are about execution. Pacing is king. My rule of thumb is that I
can usually run a 50 just a bit slower than the pace I run an *easy* 20
miler when in the middle of a training week. (However, I average about 70
mpw -- this may not be good advice for lower mileage runners). This means
that the race feels really easy for the first 20-24 miles, hardly breathing,
then gets progressively harder...

2. If you can finish a marathon in under 4 hours, you can finish a 50. If
you can finish in under 3:30, you can probably run 80-90% of it. If you are
around 3:00, you can most likely run every step on many courses.

3. The most likely source of failure for a first timer (after going out too
fast) is hydration/salt/nutrition. So much can happen when you're running
for 7-10 hours...

For instance, it took me a couple of years to figure out that I need to
drink about 40 oz/hour of sports drink when racing ultras. The price of
dehydration is debilitating leg cramps, and performance decline. This
happens when I lose 4-6 lbs of body weight. The cure is to drink 16-24 oz
quickly and take a Succeed capsule. Then drink more, until you've
rehydrated. In one race, I drank 70 oz in an hour to rehydrate myself when
I started cramping at mile 25 in a 50k.

You need a Succeed salt cap (or equivalent 600mg of sodium) for every 20-30
oz you drink. Some folks who have a low sweating rate get by on salty
snacks. Not me. 600mg is the amount of salt you lose when sweating the
20-30 oz. Get behind in salt, and you get lethargic, mental fog sets in,
and if unlucky, can get very sick or even die. (see hyponatremia).

You'll need to nibble throughout the race. Most ultra guys consume about
300 calories/hour in sports drink + snacks. Snacks should include fat
(settles the stomach and absorbs bile), and protein (absorbs acid) as well
as carbs. In other words, normal food. Eating nothing but carbs will often
cause a queasy stomach.

4. The training is pretty much like marathon training. Long runs, LT runs,
and speedwork over the last 4-6 weeks to sharpen up (if you are a racer).
I'll email you my log of the last 6 weeks before my last 50.

I get by with a 28 mile training run or a 50k 2-5 weeks before the race.
You don't need to kill yourself with long runs, unless you are low mileage,
then they probably help. If you crank up the miles (70+), your aerobic
reserves are pretty high, and there's not as much need to bash yourself with
30 mile runs.

-- Dan

Dan,

Ice is nice. I iced my achilles on and off last night for about 3 hours
and it feels a lot better today. Thanks for all the great advice.

-Jason

holmbrew said:

Dan,

Thanks for the advice. I am actually hoping to run two marathons prior
to the 50, and I know I am a bit ahead of the game...but I am too damn
excited to slow down. I'll pack on the miles slowly and try the ice
therapy. I know there will be some down time prior to the 50 because my
first daughter is due to arrive at the end of January, so that may force
me to slow down a bit.

Would you mind sharing your typical "ultra" training schedule. From like
ramp up to race day, preparing for a 50, i guess. What's your longest
run? What sort of hill and speed work do you factor in? What sort of
weekly mileage to you shoot for at the peak of you training cycle?

Thanks,
Jason

Dan Stumpus said:

holmbrew said:

I have recently noticed some pain near the top of my Achilles on mt
left ankle. It is accompanied by a bit of stiffness. I don't really
notice it after I get about a mile of so into my runs, but it is
certainly noticeable afterwards and on my off days.

Here are some lessons I've learned over 24 yrs and 70k miles...

1. Inflammation is part of the healing process. Avoid aspirin, advil
and
other nsaids. They mask pain and interfere with the natural inflammation
process. They may actually impair tendon healing (got this from an
orthopedist).

2. Ice is magical. Use one of those freezer-pack flexible and
reusable ice
packs.

3. Ice for a couple of minutes, or until it starts to hurt. Be
careful not
to burn the skin. I put a plastic grocery bag over the pack to prevent
burning.

4. Let the area warm up a bit, and repeat. (usually after 5 minutes).

5. Repeat steps 3 and 4 every few hours throughout the day. If you
wake up
during the middle of the night, do it then, too. The more times you do
this, the faster it will heal. Really. I've been unable to run on
day 1,
and iced 6 times and been fine on day 2.

Quoted message said:

Could this be some sort of tendonitis? Is this common?

It's just overuse. Sounds like a mild case.

In my case, it's usually caused by running too many hill days back to
back,
such as 3 days in a row of over 3500' of moderately hard climbing. I
learned to nestle relatively flat days between hill days, and I've been
trouble free the last couple of years.

When younger, I hurt my Achilles pretty bad doing too-fast 440
intervals on
cement (66-67 seconds).

If you run slow on flat surfaces (preferably dirt) for a few days
after the
pain subsides, you can reintroduce hills (gently at first).

Quoted message said:

I am not new
to running, but I am putting on more miles that I have in the past few
years in preparation for a 50 mile trail race in June.

Whew, that's a long time to prepare! Don't overwork too far in advance.
I've run 6 ultras this year, including 2 50 milers. Fiftys are an
adventure, good luck.

-- Dan

"holmbrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Would you mind sharing your typical "ultra" training schedule. From
like ramp up to race day, preparing for a 50, i guess. What's your
longest run? What sort of hill and speed work do you factor in? What
sort of weekly mileage to you shoot for at the peak of you training
cycle?

First off, you achilles is the little conservative guy on you shoulder
waving a yellow flag. Ice may calm it down but the discomfort is a
warning sign.

Dan gave you lots of good stuff and if you asked 100 different folks
you'll get a 100 different answers. I would overlap with Dan in most
places and go in different directions in others. We both strive to find
what works for us. Rather than post what works for me I would point you
to http://www.ultrunr.com/ This will provide you with lots of data
points to consider. Like any race distance there isn't one way to
train. You see how people have trained then factor in your strengths and
weaknesses and create your own blend.

As specific as I will get is the necessity of the long run and how it
should match the race conditions as best you can tell. How long should
this should be, or how much is run vs. hike, or how frequently these
should be run are some further topics. Each can generate a thesis paper.
😉 This now dominoes into fluids, salt, food, sleep,etc.

Read the web pages and see if it helps.

Other than the distance have you picked out a race? If so which one. Any
reason you not starting with a 50k?

-DougF

Well, I am planning on running 1, maybe 2 marathons prior ro the 50
miler. It's the Squaw Peak 50 near Orem/Provo, Utah. I guess the only
reason I have not picked a 50k first is that there is not reason,
perhpas I could find one close by. I have been told the Squaw Peak 50 is
a fun race. I have aspirations of running the Wasatch 100 maybe next
year, and I though the 50 would be a good way to test my mettle.

The ice on my achilles seems to be working, the creeking is gone. I
only did a little over 3 miles this morning and plan on taking it easy
the rest of the week and contiune with the ice and some specific stretches.

I may be trying to increase my mileage too fast. Perhaps that is what
my achilles is warning me about. The only this I did differently this
week was hit the trail a bit on Friday, that include about a 3 mile,
sort of steep, downhill piece that may have irritate the old achilles.

Doug Freese said:

"holmbrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Would you mind sharing your typical "ultra" training schedule. From
like ramp up to race day, preparing for a 50, i guess. What's your
longest run? What sort of hill and speed work do you factor in? What
sort of weekly mileage to you shoot for at the peak of you training
cycle?

First off, you achilles is the little conservative guy on you shoulder
waving a yellow flag. Ice may calm it down but the discomfort is a
warning sign.

Dan gave you lots of good stuff and if you asked 100 different folks
you'll get a 100 different answers. I would overlap with Dan in most
places and go in different directions in others. We both strive to find
what works for us. Rather than post what works for me I would point you
to http://www.ultrunr.com/ This will provide you with lots of data
points to consider. Like any race distance there isn't one way to
train. You see how people have trained then factor in your strengths and
weaknesses and create your own blend.

As specific as I will get is the necessity of the long run and how it
should match the race conditions as best you can tell. How long should
this should be, or how much is run vs. hike, or how frequently these
should be run are some further topics. Each can generate a thesis paper.
😉 This now dominoes into fluids, salt, food, sleep,etc.

Read the web pages and see if it helps.

Other than the distance have you picked out a race? If so which one. Any
reason you not starting with a 50k?

-DougF

"holmbrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well, I am planning on running 1, maybe 2 marathons prior ro the 50
miler. It's the Squaw Peak 50 near Orem/Provo, Utah. I guess the only
reason I have not picked a 50k first is that there is not reason,
perhpas I could find one close by. I have been told the Squaw Peak 50
is a fun race.

" The trail will be marked. It consists of - dirt trails (43%), dirt
roads (38%) and some paved (19%). There is over 10,000+/- ft. of
elevation gain and loss, with 5 major climbs varying from 1100 ft to
nearly 3000 ft. The first starts at mile 2.1. A series of climbs takes
you up 2700 ft. over 5 miles to an overlook of Squaw Peak."

A fun race? I don't know about the footing of the trail but 10k of
elevation is only fun for those that are used to running 14k of
elevation. I'm only saying this is not a easy race. You also get to
9,000 feet. If you live at elevation you are ok if not, how do you plan
to get acclimated?

Quoted message said:

I have aspirations of running the Wasatch 100 maybe next year, and I
though the 50 would be a good way to test my mettle.

Wasatch is real mother ***ker."There is a cumulative elevation gain of
approximately 26,882 feet, as well as a cumulative loss of approximately
26,131 feet throughout the course. This is a premier run that will test
the endurance of any runner. The course follows footpaths, game trails
and dirt roads, with a few short stretches of pavement, at altitudes
from 5,000 to 10,480 feet."

Don't take me wrong but it's like it's like someone teaching a person to
drive a standard shift car on Monday and on Tuesday wanting to enter
the Indy 500.

You have high aspirations. Have you thought this all the way through?

-Doug

Yeah, I have give it some thought. I live and train in Salt Lake and do
many runs at elevations between 6K and 10K. The Wasatch 100 is a
[censored], that is why I am doing the Squaw Peak first. I have some
friends that have done both races and they consider the Squaw Peak a
good test peace. It is not my first trail race, just the first really
long one. I have run The Wahsatch Steeplechase a couple times and will
again this year, if the Squaw Peak doesn't kill me. The steeplchase is
pretty fast, tough, and fun race.

Doug Freese said:

"holmbrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well, I am planning on running 1, maybe 2 marathons prior ro the 50
miler. It's the Squaw Peak 50 near Orem/Provo, Utah. I guess the only
reason I have not picked a 50k first is that there is not reason,
perhpas I could find one close by. I have been told the Squaw Peak 50
is a fun race.

" The trail will be marked. It consists of - dirt trails (43%), dirt
roads (38%) and some paved (19%). There is over 10,000+/- ft. of
elevation gain and loss, with 5 major climbs varying from 1100 ft to
nearly 3000 ft. The first starts at mile 2.1. A series of climbs takes
you up 2700 ft. over 5 miles to an overlook of Squaw Peak."

A fun race? I don't know about the footing of the trail but 10k of
elevation is only fun for those that are used to running 14k of
elevation. I'm only saying this is not a easy race. You also get to
9,000 feet. If you live at elevation you are ok if not, how do you plan
to get acclimated?

Quoted message said:

I have aspirations of running the Wasatch 100 maybe next year, and I
though the 50 would be a good way to test my mettle.

Wasatch is real mother ***ker."There is a cumulative elevation gain of
approximately 26,882 feet, as well as a cumulative loss of approximately
26,131 feet throughout the course. This is a premier run that will test
the endurance of any runner. The course follows footpaths, game trails
and dirt roads, with a few short stretches of pavement, at altitudes
from 5,000 to 10,480 feet."

Don't take me wrong but it's like it's like someone teaching a person to
drive a standard shift car on Monday and on Tuesday wanting to enter
the Indy 500.

You have high aspirations. Have you thought this all the way through?

-Doug

Doug Freese said:

Quoted message said:

I have been told the
Squaw Peak 50 is a fun race.

" The trail will be marked. It consists of - dirt trails (43%), dirt
roads (38%) and some paved (19%). There is over 10,000+/- ft. of
elevation gain and loss, with 5 major climbs varying from 1100 ft to
nearly 3000 ft. The first starts at mile 2.1. A series of climbs takes
you up 2700 ft. over 5 miles to an overlook of Squaw Peak."

A fun race? I don't know about the footing of the trail but 10k of
elevation is only fun for those that are used to running 14k of
elevation. I'm only saying this is not a easy race. You also get to
9,000 feet. If you live at elevation you are ok if not, how do you
plan to get acclimated?

This is one tough mother.. You're going to be out there a looong time.
Only the top 2 broke 9 hours, and only the top 25% broke 11 hours!!
Similar times to the Miwok 100k, a very hilly 62 miler (10k' of climb) run
at an average elevation of 1000'.

A very ambitious goal, indeed. I'd want to do a couple of 6-7 hour training
runs on the hardest parts of the course...Heck, now I'm interested in it...

Re altitude acclimation, if you run at elevation for 4-5 weekends in a row,
it's no big deal, at least based on the experience of my circle of maniacs.
When the *average* elevation is 9k+ for many hours it can get nasty
(pulmonary edema and other nice things).

-- Dan

Doug Freese said:

Quoted message said:

I have been told the
Squaw Peak 50 is a fun race.

" The trail will be marked. It consists of - dirt trails (43%), dirt
roads (38%) and some paved (19%). There is over 10,000+/- ft. of
elevation gain and loss, with 5 major climbs varying from 1100 ft to
nearly 3000 ft. The first starts at mile 2.1. A series of climbs takes
you up 2700 ft. over 5 miles to an overlook of Squaw Peak."

A fun race? I don't know about the footing of the trail but 10k of
elevation is only fun for those that are used to running 14k of
elevation. I'm only saying this is not a easy race. You also get to
9,000 feet. If you live at elevation you are ok if not, how do you
plan to get acclimated?

This is one tough mother.. You're going to be out there a looong time.
Only the top 2 broke 9 hours, and only the top 25% broke 11 hours!!
Similar times to the Miwok 100k, a very hilly 62 miler (10k' of climb) run
at an average elevation of 1000'.

A very ambitious goal, indeed. I'd want to do a couple of 6-7 hour training
runs on the hardest parts of the course...Heck, now I'm interested in it...

Re altitude acclimation, if you run at elevation for 4-5 weekends in a row,
it's no big deal, at least based on the experience of my circle of maniacs.
When the *average* elevation is 9k+ for many hours it can get nasty
(pulmonary edema and other nice things).

-- Dan

"Dan Stumpus" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This is one tough mother.. You're going to be out there a looong
time.
Only the top 2 broke 9 hours, and only the top 25% broke 11 hours!!
Similar times to the Miwok 100k, a very hilly 62 miler (10k' of climb)
run
at an average elevation of 1000'.

A very ambitious goal, indeed. I'd want to do a couple of 6-7 hour
training
runs on the hardest parts of the course...Heck, now I'm interested in
it...

Re altitude acclimation, if you run at elevation for 4-5 weekends in a
row,
it's no big deal, at least based on the experience of my circle of
maniacs.
When the *average* elevation is 9k+ for many hours it can get nasty
(pulmonary edema and other nice things).

He seems to understand these races are difficult. It's not as if he
thinks of them as an Umstead or Olander. Now understanding and
execution is two different things. Hopefully his friends that have done
this will give him good advice. A fellow ultra geek that I run with has
done Wasatch a lot of times. He/We can do Vermont in the 21-22 hour
range and does Wasatch in the 34-35 which is a few hairs shy of the
grim reaper, aka the cutoff.

My only advice is for him is to fully resolve his PF problem to include
the cause. Is it really overuse, or biomechanical, or poor shoe choice,
etc. The hill training for the 50 alone will test this problem. You
will need to live on hills and as we know hills and PF are oil and
water. Getting through the training will be hard part.

I admire his gumption to want to do these races but I would suggest he
start with a race or two that is less demanding.
http://www.run100s.com/races.htm shows a pile a races. At worst you
spend a day traveling to and from.

If he gets through these two we have one tough hombre and the following
year will do Barkley, Badwater and the slam. Just kidding

Best of luck!!!!!

-Doug

Yeah, I understand how tough these races are. But I think I am up to the
abuse. Like I said, the Squaw Oeak is my test piece. But, I have
started to research some 50k's in the area and I may consider some of
those events. I do plan on training on sections of the Squaw Peak course
and on sections of the Wasatch 100, it's damn near in my backyard.

Anyway, I am not taking these races lightly, and I plan on doing my
homework. My achilles was pretty sore this morning at about 5:15am, when
I got up for run, so I decided to lay-off today and I am icing it as I type.

Thanks for the links to the various sites you guys posted. Maybe I'll
see you guys at a starting line some place on of these days.

-Jason

Dan Stumpus said:

Doug Freese said:

Quoted message said:

I have been told the
Squaw Peak 50 is a fun race.

" The trail will be marked. It consists of - dirt trails (43%), dirt
roads (38%) and some paved (19%). There is over 10,000+/- ft. of
elevation gain and loss, with 5 major climbs varying from 1100 ft to
nearly 3000 ft. The first starts at mile 2.1. A series of climbs takes
you up 2700 ft. over 5 miles to an overlook of Squaw Peak."

A fun race? I don't know about the footing of the trail but 10k of
elevation is only fun for those that are used to running 14k of
elevation. I'm only saying this is not a easy race. You also get to
9,000 feet. If you live at elevation you are ok if not, how do you
plan to get acclimated?

This is one tough mother.. You're going to be out there a looong time.
Only the top 2 broke 9 hours, and only the top 25% broke 11 hours!!
Similar times to the Miwok 100k, a very hilly 62 miler (10k' of climb) run
at an average elevation of 1000'.

A very ambitious goal, indeed. I'd want to do a couple of 6-7 hour training
runs on the hardest parts of the course...Heck, now I'm interested in it...

Re altitude acclimation, if you run at elevation for 4-5 weekends in a row,
it's no big deal, at least based on the experience of my circle of maniacs.
When the *average* elevation is 9k+ for many hours it can get nasty
(pulmonary edema and other nice things).

-- Dan

What you can try for the achilles:

For a mild tinge or not inflamed, do calf "dips". Use two calves to
raise the body and shift weight to target leg to slowly lower the
body--strengthens the calf in eccentric contraction. Recommended by a
Swedish study quoted in the past. They added weight as strength
developed and had great results with runners.

Once healed (and heeled), gradually doing more hilly trail running with
long recoveries between events actually strengthens my achilles and
keeps it limber. Rationale: running on the level does not develop the
calf and achilles fully.

What works for many is just stretching out the calf to reduce the load
on the achilles. However, you should get much faster healing with
contract-release stretching techniques that avoid the stretch reflex.

When starting a run, you can exaggerate foot dorsiflection prior to
heesltrike to signal the calf to relax. Cold stretching before a run
can be disastrous, especially if using a static stretch. Some walking
and spinning on a cycle can warm up the legs.

Ok, so i have been icing it a lot and decide to just not run this week
and it is feeling a ton better. This morning whne i got up there was
not any discomfort. I think I will continue to ice it through the
weekend and get back on the training horse on monday. I am also working
in some stretching and some strengthening exercises, but mostly i have
been icing it.

holmbrew said:

I have recently noticed some pain near the top of my Achilles on mt left
ankle. It is accompanied by a bit of stiffness. I don't really notice it
after I get about a mile of so into my runs, but it is certainly
noticeable afterwards and on my off days.

Could this be some sort of tendonitis? Is this common? I am not new to
running, but I am putting on more miles that I have in the past few
years in preparation for a 50 mile trail race in June.

Any suggestions? Remedies?

Thanks,
Jason

"holmbrew" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ok, so i have been icing it a lot and decide to just not run this week
and it is feeling a ton better. This morning whne i got up there was
not any discomfort. I think I will continue to ice it through the
weekend and get back on the training horse on monday.

Get back on the horse? If that means speed or hills keep the ice close
by, you will need it again. You need to baby this for a few weeks not a
few days.

-DF