another first time marathon question

Jim Flom said:

I'm looking at doing the Vancouver Marathon next May 1, but have not done
much running prior to the last few days -- all cycling, with a little
elliptical or weekly trail running thrown in. A lot of the training
schedules call for more base training and/or a year of running prior to
doing a marathon.

I'm not thinking in terms of a fast marathon, just finishing under four
hours. Unrealistic?

JF

Not unrealistic but tricky and a good risk of injury. I would find a
schedule for beginners or "just finisher" now and try it on for size. I
would expect you may be a bit sore after the first week or so but be
able to make it.

The Galloway program is a 26 week program to get non-runners to finish a
marathon. I would recommend taking a look at that and skipping forward
to the appropriate week. Since you don't have a good base you'll feel
the pain as you increase the mileage. Since you probably aren't a
young 'un you'll need the rest time. Galloway's program has 3 rest days
a week for the beginner.

Give it shot. If you can make it through the training then I think you
finish.

"mot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jim Flom wrote:

Not unrealistic but tricky and a good risk of injury. I would find a
schedule for beginners or "just finisher" now and try it on for size. I
would expect you may be a bit sore after the first week or so but be able
to make it.

The Galloway program is a 26 week program to get non-runners to finish a
marathon. I would recommend taking a look at that and skipping forward to
the appropriate week. Since you don't have a good base you'll feel the
pain as you increase the mileage. Since you probably aren't a young 'un
you'll need the rest time. Galloway's program has 3 rest days a week for
the beginner.

Thanks for the thoughts. The risk of injury is the piece I am concerned
about. I did look at the Galloway program. It has me running 13-14 miles
for the long run on my second week, which needless to say is not realistic.
What do you think of this novice one from Hal Higdon?

http://www.halhigdon.com/marathon/novices.html

Admittedly there are only two rest days a week in there, but Galloway's
beginner or "just finish" schedule seems to have even less. My wife did
Higdon's to run the Philadelphia marathon a few years ago. She seems to
like it. I was thinking for that cross training day I could do an easy bike
ride for an hour or so.

This one from Runners Worlds (UK) just looks too mamby pamby, but it gives
me three rest days per week:

http://www.runnersworld.ltd.uk/firsttime.htm

As a fourteen week schedule it allows me a few weeks to just get my running
legs back again, but jeez, it looks like a walk/jog schedule, not a run
schedule.

Obviously some of the aerobic fitness will translate over from biking to
running...but as a "former runner", you know the pounding on the legs. Why did
you quit running in favor of the bike?

The biggest obstacle for you will be the challenge of getting enough mileage in
without getting injured. And I suppose all of this begs the question "why"?
Why is your goal in the marathon just to finish? Why not build up gradually,
first with 5- and 10-k races, then half marathons, and finally the marathon
distance? Why the rush from virtually no running at all to wanting to run one
in just over 5 months from now?

Just curious for myself as well as wondering if you have asked and/or answered
any of the above, plus the hundreds of other questions one could ask those that
want to go from scratch to the marathon distance in no time flat?

Mike C

Quoted message said:

From: "Jim Flom" jimflom@telusABOUT

Quoted message said:

Didn't see anything in the FAQs about this particular question.

I was a runner for close to twenty years, then took up cycling about 7 years
ago, including competitive and distance cycling. I've got good base fitness
and am 47 years old.

I'm looking at doing the Vancouver Marathon next May 1, but have not done
much running prior to the last few days -- all cycling, with a little
elliptical or weekly trail running thrown in. A lot of the training
schedules call for more base training and/or a year of running prior to
doing a marathon.

I'm not thinking in terms of a fast marathon, just finishing under four
hours. Unrealistic?

JF

Jim Flom wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

Didn't see anything in the FAQs about this particular question.

I was a runner for close to twenty years, then took up cycling about 7

years

Quoted message said:

ago, including competitive and distance cycling. I've got good base

fitness

Quoted message said:

and am 47 years old.

I'm looking at doing the Vancouver Marathon next May 1, but have not done
much running prior to the last few days -- all cycling, with a little
elliptical or weekly trail running thrown in. A lot of the training
schedules call for more base training and/or a year of running prior to
doing a marathon.

I'm not thinking in terms of a fast marathon, just finishing under four
hours. Unrealistic?

Jim, to what extent are you willing to give up your cycling, as that's an
important factor? I was able to combine cycling and running and run both a
50k and marathon this year. The key thing is to get a couple of runs in per
week, and one longer one on the weekend. You can do your longest run every
2 or 3 weeks, building up to 20m+, and do medium-long runs in intervening
weeks. The rest of your time can be on the bike. If you want to take this
approach you can post to the triathlon group for more advice perhaps, or
I'll tell you more how I did it. If you want to transition to being a
runner only, you'll probably lose a good deal of you're aerobic base for
some time.

-Tony

Jim Flom said:

Thanks for the thoughts. The risk of injury is the piece I am concerned
about.

flom,
i did a 5 month stint to run a marathon from no base, and even though i
enjoyed my training and managed to get in a few 50 mile weeks, i ended
up injured and not running the race in the end. 6 weeks later i'm still
patiently waiting to be "like new" again. i did run 26.2 miles in
training before sending my knees down the river, so maybe if i had just
been a bit more conservative, i wouldn't have been injured until *after*
the race .

then again, you might not have any problems at all, just wanted to share
my "similar" story with you,
your fellow dumbass

Quoted message said:

your fellow dumbass

Good post!

Jim Flom said:

Didn't see anything in the FAQs about this particular question.

I was a runner for close to twenty years, then took up cycling about 7 years
ago, including competitive and distance cycling. I've got good base fitness
and am 47 years old.

I'm looking at doing the Vancouver Marathon next May 1, but have not done
much running prior to the last few days -- all cycling, with a little
elliptical or weekly trail running thrown in. A lot of the training
schedules call for more base training and/or a year of running prior to
doing a marathon.

I'm not thinking in terms of a fast marathon, just finishing under four
hours. Unrealistic?

JF

I have a theory about bikers that run. You are better off than a
beginner marathoner because you do have high aerobic fitness and (unless
you are a masters fattie) are near an ideal weight for a runner. These
are your strengths over a first-timer-new-years-resolution-marathoner,
for which there are a lot of training programs.

One commonality you have with the new marathoner is that some of your
running specific muscles and tendons aren't ballanced, and that's one of
the things that causes cartilage problems.

Programs for new runners are trying to change all these things at the
same time. You only have to worry about the muscles and tendons, which
take lots of time to develop.

When I tried running and biking together, I found two or three runs a
week, one of them long, with easy riding on the other days and light
streching after almost every ride/run to be enjoyable. Only running 2-3
days a week allows maximum recovery for the things you are trying to
change, and the cycling helps you keep your total weekly time on the
bike/feet up to where you feel fit.

"Mike Conway" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Obviously some of the aerobic fitness will translate over from biking to
running...but as a "former runner", you know the pounding on the legs.
Why did
you quit running in favor of the bike?

I was getting bored with running so when I pulled a muscle in my back on a
run one day it gave me an excuse to rediscover cycling, which generally is
my first love after cross country skiing.

Quoted message said:

The biggest obstacle for you will be the challenge of getting enough
mileage in
without getting injured. And I suppose all of this begs the question
"why"?
Why is your goal in the marathon just to finish? Why not build up
gradually,
first with 5- and 10-k races, then half marathons, and finally the
marathon
distance? Why the rush from virtually no running at all to wanting to run
one
in just over 5 months from now?

For one thing my wife is planning to do it and it gives us a training
partner and the whole do-something-together deal. Plus it still leaves me
the rest of the spring and summer for riding, which I'd rather do than run
(except with wet, rainy winter's like they have here in the lower part of
BC).

Quoted message said:

Just curious for myself as well as wondering if you have asked and/or
answered
any of the above, plus the hundreds of other questions one could ask those
that
want to go from scratch to the marathon distance in no time flat?

I am confident in my cardiovascular fitness, and like a reasonable
challenge. But I am old enough to know I need to find my running legs too
and that'll take some care, and maybe as I said to another poster a bit more
riding mixed in. I'm pretty sure trying to push for a particular time,
rather than to just finish, would be asking for injury. Who knows, maybe
I'll dig it enough to do another one for time or try a triathlon or two.

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BwgAd.13597$152.10830@trndny01...

Quoted message said:

Jim, to what extent are you willing to give up your cycling, as that's an
important factor? I was able to combine cycling and running and run both
a
50k and marathon this year. The key thing is to get a couple of runs in
per
week, and one longer one on the weekend. You can do your longest run
every
2 or 3 weeks, building up to 20m+, and do medium-long runs in intervening
weeks. The rest of your time can be on the bike. If you want to take
this
approach you can post to the triathlon group for more advice perhaps, or
I'll tell you more how I did it. If you want to transition to being a
runner only, you'll probably lose a good deal of you're aerobic base for
some time.

Are you my age? I'll be wanting to see how my body adjusts to distance
running again. It makes sense what you're saying about riding along with
the running -- I do have "Training Plans for Multi-sport Athletes," by Gale
Bernhardt (VeloPress). I figure I can do the marathon in May (1st) and
still have a full summer of cycling ahead of me, if not competitive, at
least good recreational.

I am just looking at putting up the bike for most of these winter months.
It's wet enough here in the lower mainland of BC, and I am out in the sticks
just enough, that riding through the winter just isn't as fun as what I had
out East. I need a fitness goal, and the running can get me through the
winter, and provide cross training and variety for cycling and x-c skiing.
Maybe I can reduce the risk of injury by mixing in a bit more riding with
the running if I feel the need, while keeping the most important long runs
as you suggest.

Jim Flom wrote in message ...

Quoted message said:

"Tony" <qtrader2@(remove)hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BwgAd.13597$152.10830@trndny01...

Quoted message said:

Jim, to what extent are you willing to give up your cycling, as that's an
important factor? I was able to combine cycling and running and run both
a
50k and marathon this year. The key thing is to get a couple of runs in
per
week, and one longer one on the weekend. You can do your longest run
every
2 or 3 weeks, building up to 20m+, and do medium-long runs in intervening
weeks. The rest of your time can be on the bike. If you want to take
this
approach you can post to the triathlon group for more advice perhaps, or
I'll tell you more how I did it. If you want to transition to being a
runner only, you'll probably lose a good deal of you're aerobic base for
some time.

Are you my age? I'll be wanting to see how my body adjusts to distance
running again. It makes sense what you're saying about riding along with
the running -- I do have "Training Plans for Multi-sport Athletes," by Gale
Bernhardt (VeloPress). I figure I can do the marathon in May (1st) and
still have a full summer of cycling ahead of me, if not competitive, at
least good recreational.

I just turned 42. Yea, no reason you can't get your running legs enough to
do a marathon by May I think. One thing I found this year, and I ramped up
from very little running over a similar period of time - 5 months - is that
I only seemed to have so much time I could spend on my feet (run) in any
given timeperiod. Long runs are doable, but require time off the feet
before and after.

Quoted message said:

I am just looking at putting up the bike for most of these winter months.
It's wet enough here in the lower mainland of BC, and I am out in the

sticks

Quoted message said:

just enough, that riding through the winter just isn't as fun as what I had
out East. I need a fitness goal, and the running can get me through the
winter, and provide cross training and variety for cycling and x-c skiing.
Maybe I can reduce the risk of injury by mixing in a bit more riding with
the running if I feel the need, while keeping the most important long runs
as you suggest.

Yea be careful how fast you try to mix in the running. Keep on cycling or
skiing and add the running slowly. The long runs are most important but
your legs will probably do better doing at least 2 short runs during the
week, once you can work up to that. When I first started to run again early
last spring, I was doing mini 3 day cycles: run day, bike day, rest day,
over and over. The frequent rest days allowed my body to adapt to the
running again much faster I think. By summer I was doing 2 midweek runs and
a longer weekend run, with 3 solid days cycling. By Fall, before my
marathon, I was up to running 4 days/week with a couple of bike rides.

-Tony

I note that some of those in this group advised me to do more frequent
shorter runs than the 40-100 minute runs I was doing every 3rd day in the
beginning. I simply found it more effective and easier on my body to do it
like that, though later when my weekend runs got longer, I normally did only
40-50 minute runs during the week.

-Tony

I note that some of those in this group advised me to do more frequent
shorter runs than the 40-100 minute runs I was doing every 3rd day in the
beginning. I simply found it more effective and easier on my body to do it
like that, though later when my weekend runs got longer, I normally did only
40-50 minute runs during the week.

-Tony

Quoted message said:

From: "Jim Flom"

Quoted message said:

Why the rush from virtually no running at all to wanting to run

Quoted message said:

one
in just over 5 months from now

Quoted message said:

For one thing my wife is planning to do it and it gives us a training
partner and the whole do-something-together deal.

Okay, good reason...and it sounds like you've kept yourself reasonably fit, so
this endeavor won't be like the typical couch potato (or TNT'er) going from
aerobic zero to the marathon distance.

Quoted message said:

Plus it still leaves me
the rest of the spring and summer for riding, which I'd rather do than run
(except with wet, rainy winter's like they have here in the lower part of
BC).

This is the first winter (okay, I'm in Northern California so that is a
relative term) that I've been on the bike outdoors, and I'm loving it...the
rain, however, is something that I think I will continue to stay out of...

Quoted message said:

Who knows, maybe
I'll dig it enough to do another one for time or try a triathlon or two.

Yeah, watch out for those things....

Mike C

"Mike Conway" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This is the first winter (okay, I'm in Northern California so that is a
relative term) that I've been on the bike outdoors, and I'm loving
it...the
rain, however, is something that I think I will continue to stay out of...

I don't even mind riding in the rain once in awhile. It's riding in rain
for weeks on end and with no company, with logging trucks flying by at 60
mph -- yuck!

Jim Flom said:

I am just looking at putting up the bike for most of these winter months.
It's wet enough here in the lower mainland of BC, and I am out in the sticks
just enough, that riding through the winter just isn't as fun as what I had
out East. I need a fitness goal, and the running can get me through the
winter, and provide cross training and variety for cycling and x-c skiing.
Maybe I can reduce the risk of injury by mixing in a bit more riding with
the running if I feel the need, while keeping the most important long runs
as you suggest.

vandenberghe ran a marathon a few years back. here's his post on it for
you. maybe you can email him for more help if you're still looking for
ideas? i have no idea how old he is though...
---------------
I'm running a Marathon on December 2. At the end of the road season, I was
burnt out and wanted to do something different. In mid September, I decided
to run a Marathon. Gave me 12 weeks to prepare. Now, I was a completive
Marathon runner about 15 years ago and ran in College, but haven't run
competitively in 15 yrs. And I hadn't run a step in about 18 months
pre-Sept. 15. First run I went out to do 5 miles, first three were easy,
then I felt like I got hit by a truck. I couldn't walk comfortably for
about three days. But within 10 days, I was running 10 miles pretty easily
(I had very good fitness following a hard road season). Ran a 1:23 1/2
marathon after about 5 weeks that actually felt easy. I've since done
an 18
miler a 20 miler and last Friday a 24 miler. All have felt good except the
24 - the last three miles I was dying. I feel like physically I could have
run the same pace for another 2 hrs, but my legs were falling apart. I
ended up taking two days off after because I hurt so bad. My schedule is
basically 6 - 8 miles fast on Monday, 6 - 8 miles easy on Tuesday, ride 4
hrs on Wed (don't want to forget how and this acts as a bit of a recovery
day - different muscles) 9 - 11 easy on Thursday and then I do a long run
either Fri or Sat depending on my schedule and the other day I do an
easy 5
miles, Sunday is my day off. Works for me. I am having some over-use
issues with my body. Given my fitness I'm able to go very hard and long
quickly and my body's not used to the pounding. I have one more long run
this week and then a two week taper before Marathon day hopefully I'll be
fully recovered and can handle the pounding. My goal is 2:50. One big
positive is that I've dropped 8 pounds. Running just sheds the weight. All
year long I wanted to drop down to 145, but was constantly 148 - 149. Now
I'm 140. I'm sure once I start my weight program in December and
putting in
more bike miles I'll get right back up to the high 140s, but I will say on
my Wed rides I'm climbing great. Good luck.

Mark VandenBerghe
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/24cb53c20d0314dc?dmode=source

FabulustRunner said:

Quoted message said:

your fellow dumbass

Good post!

Surprisingly, I feel somewhat affectionate towards you, but not enough
yet to call you a dumbass. Keep trying.

Thanks!

-J

Quoted message said:

Surprisingly, I feel somewhat affectionate towards you

No surprise, I spotted the bulge in your pants right away.

jogger said:

FabulustRunner said:

Good post!

Surprisingly, I feel somewhat affectionate towards you, but not

enough

Quoted message said:

yet to call you a dumbass. Keep trying.

Jogger, he is the resident DF! Not DA. :-)

-- Bob.

Try doing a 10k after you've trained for a couple of months and plug
that into one of the calculators out on the web. They're supposed to
give a fairly good estimate of your marathon time. Only thing is over
time your times should improve therefore the calculators will create
faster predictions as you continue training. That is if you are a new
runner. Thats the way it's been working for me. My 5k time said I'd do
the marathon in 4 hrs but a couple of months later I did a 10k and the
calculator predicted a 3:37 marathon. I assume its because the training
is causing my speed to increase significantly.

HTH

Jim Flom said:

Didn't see anything in the FAQs about this particular question.

I was a runner for close to twenty years, then took up cycling about

7 years

Quoted message said:

ago, including competitive and distance cycling. I've got good base

fitness

Quoted message said:

and am 47 years old.

I'm looking at doing the Vancouver Marathon next May 1, but have not

done

Quoted message said:

much running prior to the last few days -- all cycling, with a little

Quoted message said:

elliptical or weekly trail running thrown in. A lot of the training
schedules call for more base training and/or a year of running prior

to

Quoted message said:

doing a marathon.

I'm not thinking in terms of a fast marathon, just finishing under

four

Quoted message said:

hours. Unrealistic?

JF