wild water

On 11 Aug 2004 04:58:41 -0700, [email hidden] (Jon

Reynolds) said:

Hi all,

This is my first port here on URW...been readin it quite a bit now.

I enjoy getting out and walkin and I have my summer hols coming up
which will include a couple of days in a campsite in gower for the
benefit of my son. then a wild camp in brecon and then a trip to
snowdon. havent been to snowdon before and i am really looking forward
to that. i am from swansea btw so gower and brecon are where i try to
get to most of the time.

One thing i read about a lot is that you always aim to camp near
water...apart from cleaning do you rely on this water as a drinking
supply? i thought this would be bad not knowing the state of the
water...when i have camped before i have always taken a load of water
with me.

any helpful thoughts with regards to water supplies in the wild would
be great...esp if it means cutting out carrying lots of it with me.

As a general guide, I'd consider it safe to drink water from small
streams or springs above 2000 feet so long as there's no evidence of
human pollution, and from streams and small rivers below 2000 feet if
the water is boiled, filtered or iodine tablets are added. (Note:
iodine use should be minimised).

If drinking straight from a stream I'd recommend the following:
1. Walk upstream a little, away from any paths.
2. Look out for evidence of livestock and avoid places where sheep or
cattle have been drinking, peeing, pooing.
3. Take your water at the fastest flowing point - not from pools.
4. Don't worry if the water has a brown tinge.

Most people in this group will probably say that the above advice is
overkill, but I'd say that they are easy and reasonable precautions to
minimise the already slight risk of problems.

C L Imber said:

As a general guide, I'd consider it safe to drink water from small
streams or springs above 2000 feet so long as there's no evidence of
human pollution, and from streams and small rivers below 2000 feet if
the water is boiled, filtered or iodine tablets are added. (Note:
iodine use should be minimised).

A lot of this will depend on where you are. A lot of my wild camping is
done from a sea kayak which puts the camps at a lot lower than 2000',
but there are plenty of places where that's no problem in itself,
especially on the W. coast of Scotland. For "under 2000'" I would say
replace that with "has not passed through an area where agricultural
runoff or other pollution is likely".
Further note that boiling and iodine is for killing things: it won't get
rid of existing toxins, 'cause toxins aren't alive.

Quoted message said:

If drinking straight from a stream I'd recommend the following:
1. Walk upstream a little, away from any paths.

Since the water is coming down it's been upstream of the path anyway:
I've never felt the need to do this if I think the stream is basically okay.

Quoted message said:

2. Look out for evidence of livestock and avoid places where sheep or
cattle have been drinking, peeing, pooing.

That'll be, errrrr, "UK wild land", then. It shouldn't particularly be
a problem: if animals are drinking the water it's because it's clean.
Fish inhabit a lot of perfectly safe streams and they're peeing and
pooing regularly. Safe water can still have quite an ecosystem going on.

Quoted message said:

3. Take your water at the fastest flowing point - not from pools.

Not actually an issue as long as you're not in a recirculating backwater
IME. It won't hurt to go for the fast bits but you needn't be religous
about it if the whole lot is basically moving downstream.

Quoted message said:

Most people in this group will probably say that the above advice is
overkill, but I'd say that they are easy and reasonable precautions to
minimise the already slight risk of problems.

If you're unhappy about sheep living in basically the same place that
will rule out a /lot/ of safe water supply.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

If drinking straight from a stream I'd recommend the following:
1. Walk upstream a little, away from any paths.

Since the water is coming down it's been upstream of the path anyway:
I've never felt the need to do this if I think the stream is basically okay.

People tend to pee close to paths - and, believe it or not, some think
that a stream is the best place to have a pee.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2. Look out for evidence of livestock and avoid places where sheep or
cattle have been drinking, peeing, pooing.

That'll be, errrrr, "UK wild land", then. It shouldn't particularly be
a problem: if animals are drinking the water it's because it's clean.
Fish inhabit a lot of perfectly safe streams and they're peeing and
pooing regularly. Safe water can still have quite an ecosystem going on.

I don't include fish as livestock.

I wouldn't feel happy taking water close downstream from where there
is evidence of recent *livestock* activity.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

3. Take your water at the fastest flowing point - not from pools.

Not actually an issue as long as you're not in a recirculating backwater
IME. It won't hurt to go for the fast bits but you needn't be religous
about it if the whole lot is basically moving downstream.

But a fair precaution where there is a choice?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Most people in this group will probably say that the above advice is
overkill, but I'd say that they are easy and reasonable precautions to
minimise the already slight risk of problems.

If you're unhappy about sheep living in basically the same place that
will rule out a /lot/ of safe water supply.

I'm not unhappy about it. I'd just prefer to minimise the already
slight risk.

C L Imber said:

People tend to pee close to paths - and, believe it or not, some think
that a stream is the best place to have a pee.

Hm? That's something I've never understood. It happens in towns too.
Some people seem to think that the best place to have a wee (or worse)
is in a phone box or a bus shelter.

I've seen some incredible[1] turds on the steps up to Moorfields
Station in Liverpool. The station staff disinfect the steps every
morning.

Judith
[1] When I say "incredible" I don't really mean it. I mean, it's only
incredible that someone has chosen there as a toilet when there are
hundreds of side streets and alleys.

C L Imber said:

People tend to pee close to paths - and, believe it or not, some think
that a stream is the best place to have a pee.

But if they do it'll be washed immediately downstream of where you are,
so not a problem.

Quoted message said:

I don't include fish as livestock.

I wouldn't feel happy taking water close downstream from where there
is evidence of recent *livestock* activity.

Again, this takes in a great deal of UK upland areas. There are sheep
just about everywhere, or the few areas there aren't there's entirely
likely to be deer. They don't make for dangerous water supply though.

Quoted message said:

But a fair precaution where there is a choice?

All other things being equal it won't hurt, but if I have to wade out
into a deep section to get to a fast bit I'm not going to bother!

Quoted message said:

I'm not unhappy about it.

But you said, and I quote, "I wouldn't feel happy", which sounds like
you're unhappy about it to me!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

C L Imber said:

People tend to pee close to paths - and, believe it or not, some think
that a stream is the best place to have a pee.

But if they do it'll be washed immediately downstream of where you are,
so not a problem.

Quoted message said:

I don't include fish as livestock.

I wouldn't feel happy taking water close downstream from where there
is evidence of recent *livestock* activity.

Again, this takes in a great deal of UK upland areas. There are sheep
just about everywhere, or the few areas there aren't there's entirely
likely to be deer. They don't make for dangerous water supply though.

Quoted message said:

But a fair precaution where there is a choice?

All other things being equal it won't hurt, but if I have to wade out
into a deep section to get to a fast bit I'm not going to bother!

Quoted message said:

I'm not unhappy about it.

But you said, and I quote, "I wouldn't feel happy", which sounds like
you're unhappy about it to me!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

C L Imber said:

People tend to pee close to paths - and, believe it or not, some think
that a stream is the best place to have a pee.

But if they do it'll be washed immediately downstream of where you are,
so not a problem.

Or perhaps it may have splashed all over the bank and onto the
surrounding vegetation so as to gradually drip/leach into the stream...
I'd always collect water from at least a few metres upstream of a path
crossing.

Rhys

Peter Clinch said:

C L Imber said:

People tend to pee close to paths - and, believe it or not, some think
that a stream is the best place to have a pee.

But if they do it'll be washed immediately downstream of where you are,
so not a problem.

And what of that little puddle gradually seeping into the water from
the immediate bank?

I'm not saying it's any worse than swimming pool water, indeed, it's
probably 100 times better - but I wouldn't drink swimming pool water
out of choice either.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I don't include fish as livestock.

I wouldn't feel happy taking water close downstream from where there
is evidence of recent *livestock* activity.

Again, this takes in a great deal of UK upland areas. There are sheep
just about everywhere, or the few areas there aren't there's entirely
likely to be deer. They don't make for dangerous water supply though.

I'm not concerned about sheep grazing some distance away - but if I
see sheep in or close by the water supply, or evidence of recent
livestock activity such as stools on the immediate bank, I'd advise
taking water from another place or further upstream.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But a fair precaution where there is a choice?

All other things being equal it won't hurt, but if I have to wade out
into a deep section to get to a fast bit I'm not going to bother!

=== Quote ===

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Most people in this group will probably say that the above advice is
overkill, but I'd say that they are easy and reasonable precautions to
minimise the already slight risk of problems.

If you're unhappy about sheep living in basically the same place that
will rule out a /lot/ of safe water supply.

I'm not unhappy about it. I'd just prefer to minimise the already
slight risk.

=== End quote ===

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm not unhappy about it.

But you said, and I quote, "I wouldn't feel happy", which sounds like
you're unhappy about it to me!

Where?

* The air of uk.rec.walking was filled with the delicate perfume
* of violets, as C L Imber <[email hidden]> descended on a shaft
* of golden sunlight, and announced:

Quoted message said:

As a general guide, I'd consider it safe to drink water from small
streams or springs above 2000 feet so long as there's no evidence of
human pollution, and from streams and small rivers below 2000 feet if
the water is boiled, filtered or iodine tablets are added. (Note:
iodine use should be minimised).

Pretty much what I do. I'd also add that if I see _any_ human activity
upstream of where I am, I won't take the water as I can't trust what others
might be doing in or near it! I consider altitude to be the best guide - the
higher I go the more confident I am of the water.

Regards: Jim Ford

On 11 Aug 2004 18:35:38 GMT, Jim Ford <[email hidden]>
wrote:

| * The air of uk.rec.walking was filled with the delicate perfume
| * of violets, as C L Imber <[email hidden]> descended on a shaft
| * of golden sunlight, and announced:
|
| > As a general guide, I'd consider it safe to drink water from small
| > streams or springs above 2000 feet so long as there's no evidence of
| > human pollution, and from streams and small rivers below 2000 feet if
| > the water is boiled, filtered or iodine tablets are added. (Note:
| > iodine use should be minimised).
|
| Pretty much what I do. I'd also add that if I see _any_ human activity
| upstream of where I am, I won't take the water as I can't trust what others
| might be doing in or near it! I consider altitude to be the best guide - the
| higher I go the more confident I am of the water.

Remember the sheep!

--
Dave F

Judith <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I've seen some incredible[1] turds on the steps up to Moorfields
Station in Liverpool.

I'm amazed nobody has nicked them during the night

Darren
(upsetting everyone from Merseyside)

"Darren G" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Judith <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I've seen some incredible[1] turds on the steps up to Moorfields
Station in Liverpool.

I'm amazed nobody has nicked them during the night

LOL

Thanks for all the speedy replies!

with regards to the use of iodine and boiling water which only kills
living things in it...is there anything to do to for the toxins, if
any, present?

but basically you lot are sayin that its pretty safe to use the water
for boiling things like cups of tea, rice etc...washing
up...personally i think id rather have a bottle of water brought with
me to drink directly...but carrying enough to do cooking and cleaning
is difficult.

(ps...how do u lot get a signature at the end of your message...like
about removing spam from ur email addy etc...or do u just type it in
everytime....

and also how did u change ur email addresses to include NOSPAM
etc??....)

CHEERS

Jon R

C L Imber said:

And what of that little puddle gradually seeping into the water from
the immediate bank?

As with the sheep poo etc., in a running stream it will immediately
become so dilute as to be unnoticeable, either by taste or by health
effects. Unless you've been sterilizing your personal environment to
excessive lengths you can actually take reasonably impure stuffs, or any
kid that ever got a mouthful of dirt on a rugby pitch would be rushed to
hospital.

Quoted message said:

I'm not saying it's any worse than swimming pool water, indeed, it's
probably 100 times better - but I wouldn't drink swimming pool water
out of choice either.

It's full of toxic chemicals and tastes disgusting.

Quoted message said:

I'm not concerned about sheep grazing some distance away - but if I
see sheep in or close by the water supply, or evidence of recent
livestock activity such as stools on the immediate bank, I'd advise
taking water from another place or further upstream.

Again, this simply rules out very large tracts of UK upland where sheep
graze widely, and there is no problem drinking the water.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But you said, and I quote, "I wouldn't feel happy", which sounds like
you're unhappy about it to me!

Quoted message said:

Where?

The next message up the thread, where I cut and pasted that quote.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Jon Reynolds said:

with regards to the use of iodine and boiling water which only kills
living things in it...is there anything to do to for the toxins, if
any, present?

Depending on how big the molecule is, filters may well remove them.
They'll get most things, but serious ones are moderately expensive.

Quoted message said:

up...personally i think id rather have a bottle of water brought with
me to drink directly...

Your prerogative, but rather than a bottle of water which has come from
a mountain spring, been bottled up and transported at some expense and
then sold back to you, why not just drink it direct from the source?

Quoted message said:

(ps...how do u lot get a signature at the end of your message...like
about removing spam from ur email addy etc...or do u just type it in
everytime....

and also how did u change ur email addresses to include NOSPAM
etc??....)

This will depend on what mailing program you're using.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But you said, and I quote, "I wouldn't feel happy", which sounds like
you're unhappy about it to me!

Quoted message said:

Where?

The next message up the thread, where I cut and pasted that quote.

Quoted out of context.

I wouldn't feel happy drinking directly from a stream where there is
livestock close by - ie in the water upstream or very close by on wet
banks.

Below about 2000 feet there is a greater risk of other contaminants,
so I would normally boil, filter or add an iodine tablet.

And, yes, quite possibly it does rule out large amounts of perfectly
safe water - but so what? I always carry iodine tablets, and if I'm
out overnight I have a stove so can boil water. I won't go thirsty
and I'm unlikely to suffer from a liver flute.

C L Imber said:

Quoted out of context.

I wouldn't feel happy drinking directly from a stream where there is
livestock close by - ie in the water upstream or very close by on wet
banks.

Well, you just said it again, and I quoted the whole context. I do feel
happy doing this, been doing it for years, so have lots of people I know.

Quoted message said:

Below about 2000 feet there is a greater risk of other contaminants,
so I would normally boil, filter or add an iodine tablet.

As I said, this depends a great deal on the geography. There are 3000'
bits of the Lakes where there's a lot more contamination potential than
bits of the Scottish coast at 0'.

Quoted message said:

And, yes, quite possibly it does rule out large amounts of perfectly
safe water - but so what?

So you're making life more difficult for yourself than necessary.

Quoted message said:

I always carry iodine tablets, and if I'm
out overnight I have a stove so can boil water. I won't go thirsty
and I'm unlikely to suffer from a liver flute.

I think you mean fluke. It's very common for folks to drink out of
places you're not happy with, yet liver flukes are not appearing in the
sort of numbers that there's a big worry about them. Or, in other
words, I'm not likely to pick them up either.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with regards to the use of iodine and boiling water which only kills
living things in it...is there anything to do to for the toxins, if
any, present?

I pipe them through my liver, which is pretty good at detoxing
reaonably good natural water sources, before permitting them into my

etc etc.

What are these toxins that are referred to? How much of a danger are they
to health? I'm guessing traces of metals and only if you drink lots for a
long time?

Mark Thompson said:

What are these toxins that are referred to?

Agrochemical runoff is a good possibility.

Quoted message said:

How much of a danger are they
to health?

Enough to cause you to be rather unpleasantly ill, at a guess. I'm not
/sure/, but nor do I particularly want to find out. But I don't have to
for typical streams in the hills as they're clean for drinking IME.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/