Handle bars again

jacob said:

My wife says she wants new bars to reduce back ache. Instead of drops
that sort of figure of eight shape or variant thereof - what are
they called?

"Butterfly bars", sometimes. Have a browse at all the various bars at
http://www.sjscycles.com/store/vIndex.htm

Before changing to a completely different type of (arguably inferior)
handlebar, I would recommend changing the stem to a shorter and possibly
higher one. Also narrower versions of drop bars can make a big
difference. 3T Morphe is a particularly good model.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

jacob said:

My wife says she wants new bars to reduce back ache. Instead of drops
that sort of figure of eight shape or variant thereof - what are
they called?

"Butterfly bars", sometimes. Have a browse at all the various bars at
http://www.sjscycles.com/store/vIndex.htm

Before changing to a completely different type of (arguably inferior)
handlebar, I would recommend changing the stem to a shorter and possibly
higher one. Also narrower versions of drop bars can make a big
difference. 3T Morphe is a particularly good model.

~PB

Also make sure that the clamp size is the same - these need a 25.4mm
clamp, which if you are using drops usually means a new stem, and you will
neeed new brake/gear levers and cables too.

--
|C|H|R|I|S|@|T|R|I|N|I|T|Y|W|I|L|L|S|.|C|O|M|
Remove the bars to contact me

"jacob" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

My wife says she wants new bars to reduce back ache. Instead of drops
that sort of figure of eight shape or variant thereof - what are
they called? Any recommendations or other suggestions?

I recently replaced some drops on a friend's bike with butterflies (the type
you describe).

The new position of the bars made it very cramped and we had to get a 40mm
longer stem.

I took a 20 mile ride on the final version and was rather unsure about them.
I think drop bars are the work of Stan [1] and mainly use flats with bar
ends [2] so in theory I should have been reasonably at home with them.
Perhaps they were too relaxed for my taste.

[1] a uk.rec.cycling bogey man. A typo for s*tan
[2] I also have two drop bar bikes. If I do long distances on them I get
neck, back & wrist ache. I don't understand why they are promoted for
leisure riding.

DavidR david.nospam.r_a@t_cwcom.net opined the following...

Quoted message said:

[2] I also have two drop bar bikes. If I do long distances on them I get
neck, back & wrist ache. I don't understand why they are promoted for
leisure riding.

I'm sure we've had this one out before but...

Because almost everyone else finds the range of positions useful for
preventing neck, back and wrist ache!

Jon

"Jon Senior" <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> wrote

Quoted message said:

DavidR david.nospam.r_a@t_cwcom.net opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[2] I also have two drop bar bikes. If I do long distances on them I get
neck, back & wrist ache. I don't understand why they are promoted for
leisure riding.

I'm sure we've had this one out before but...

We have.

Quoted message said:

Because almost everyone else finds the range of positions useful for
preventing neck, back and wrist ache!

The OP said his wife hasn't. I expect someone had suggested drops were
'better'.

jacob [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

My wife says she wants new bars to reduce back ache. Instead of drops
that sort of figure of eight shape or variant thereof - what are
they called? Any recommendations or other suggestions?

I'd second the calls for a more upright stem, and also suggest taking a
good look at the whole setup of the bike, rather than just the bars.
Simply tweaking the riding position using the components that are
already there might solve the problem, or give you (her) a better idea
of what might actually need changing.

Jon

Jon Senior said:

DavidR david.nospam.r_a@t_cwcom.net opined the following...

Quoted message said:

[2] I also have two drop bar bikes. If I do long distances on them I get
neck, back & wrist ache. I don't understand why they are promoted for
leisure riding.

I'm sure we've had this one out before but...

Because almost everyone else finds the range of positions useful for
preventing neck, back and wrist ache!

Jon

Agree with Jon, and something to think about - perhaps the stem height
on a drop bar bike is wrong for you?

Yes I know [censored] in the air and hands down by front axle's supposed to be
The Right Thing but if it's not comfortable, then it's not right, and
Changes Should Be Made ;-)

--

Velvet

"Velvet" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Jon Senior said:

DavidR david.nospam.r_a@t_cwcom.net opined the following...

Quoted message said:

[2] I also have two drop bar bikes. If I do long distances on them I get
neck, back & wrist ache. I don't understand why they are promoted for
leisure riding.

I'm sure we've had this one out before but...

Because almost everyone else finds the range of positions useful for
preventing neck, back and wrist ache!

Jon

Agree with Jon, and something to think about - perhaps the stem height
on a drop bar bike is wrong for you?

I read about the problems you were having learning to use them. At least I
can use the brakes (even if I agree that it is not a piece of cake).

No, the height & reach is correct. It is that drop bars are not hand shaped
and they only offer two basic positions (the drop, of course, and one other
position somewhere between hood & stem, depending on setup).

Quoted message said:

Yes I know [censored] in the air and hands down by front axle's supposed to be
The Right Thing but if it's not comfortable, then it's not right, and
Changes Should Be Made ;-)

If banging your head hurts, stop banging your head. Some people like banging
their head even though it is clearly harmful. So I use straights & bar ends
most of the time and only bang my head occasionally.

The trouble is 9 out 10 cyclists say it is not head banging. Nobody puts
foward any plausible reason why hands and bars ought to work in perfect
harmony.

A few weeks ago I was riding (on drop
bars) with someone that is genuinely comfortable with them. We had just just
gone down a steep, visually closed hill and I commented that my confidence
was much lower than it would have been with flats. So the subject was
broached...

It eventually came to the "I don't understand why they are promoted for
leisure riding" question. He thought for a moment and suggested it was
probably a cultural thing - which rather echoed my thinking.

To add to the difficulties of braking, a few miles later, I was doing 42mph
and approaching a gentle corner with a broken surface. I would have been on
top to get some aero braking. I moved my right hand down to the brake (I
keep my left hand on top to bear my weight through the palm and brake
against the thumb). The assymetry, presumably, triggered an almighty shimmy.
Interesting problem regaining symmetry while the oscillation is getting
worse... Must stop banging my head.

in message <[email hidden]>, DavidR

('david.nospam.r_a@t_cwcom.net') said:

No, the height & reach is correct. It is that drop bars are not hand
shaped and they only offer two basic positions (the drop, of course,
and one other position somewhere between hood & stem, depending on
setup).

This one should be in a FAQ as well. I seem to remember that last time
this canard came up people finally agreed there were at least seven
completely different hand positions with drop bars, but personally I
can count a lot more than that - and that's just counting ones I use
regularly.

For each hand:
- not holding the bar at all;
- two fingertips on the top (useful when you're sitting up);
- gripping the top, palm down;
- on the outer curve of the top, palm in;
- on the outer curve of the top, palm out;
- web of the hand on the hood, fingers under it;
- web of the hand on the hood, fingers on the brakes;
- on the bend, fingers on the brakes;
- on the drops.

That's 512 positions in total, or 511 if you discount no hands. Mind
you, I rode no hands for four miles continuously yesterday, getting
used to the balance of my new bike; so it seems a perfectly valid
option to me.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; no eternal reward will forgive us now for wasting the dawn.
;; Jim Morrison

DavidR david.nospam.r_a@t_cwcom.net opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Agree with Jon, and something to think about - perhaps the stem height
on a drop bar bike is wrong for you?

I read about the problems you were having learning to use them. At least I
can use the brakes (even if I agree that it is not a piece of cake).

Dangerous!

Quoted message said:

No, the height & reach is correct. It is that drop bars are not hand shaped
and they only offer two basic positions (the drop, of course, and one other
position somewhere between hood & stem, depending on setup).

If you remember the last time this was aired by you, you'll also
presumably remember that considerably more positions were offered than
you suggest. IIRC there were at least seven. Since we're discussing
positions... flat bars offer only one.

Quoted message said:

If banging your head hurts, stop banging your head. Some people like banging
their head even though it is clearly harmful.

Some people just nod their head and are never daft enough to bang it on
things! Drops are not "clearly harmful". You don't like them. That's
fine. Many people do, in fact... casual observation would suggest that
everyone using them, likes them. Otherwise they'd change.

Which reminds me. If you dislike them so much, why haven't you put flat
bars on your two drop-equipped bikes! "If banging your head hurts, stop
banging your head". Sound familiar?

Quoted message said:

So I use straights & bar ends
most of the time and only bang my head occasionally.

Why do it at all? I don't like big knobbly tyres, being a road cyclist.
Thus I don't have two bikes equipped with 23mm slicks and a third with
2.5" mud-grippers.

Quoted message said:

The trouble is 9 out 10 cyclists say it is not head banging. Nobody puts
foward any plausible reason why hands and bars ought to work in perfect
harmony.

Because there are a multitude of positions available and moving between
them allows you to alter your whole body position thus adjusting
yourself according to the conditions, and stretching any muscles that
might have become stiff due to a long period in the saddle. Of course...
you could just lie back and take the weight off your hands.

Quoted message said:

A few weeks ago I was riding (on drop
bars) with someone that is genuinely comfortable with them. We had just just
gone down a steep, visually closed hill and I commented that my confidence
was much lower than it would have been with flats. So the subject was
broached...

It eventually came to the "I don't understand why they are promoted for
leisure riding" question. He thought for a moment and suggested it was
probably a cultural thing - which rather echoed my thinking.

And how many times have you broached the subject and had people suggest
that it was due to the comfort offered? I can think of at least two that
we've all witnessed. Why didn't you mention this anecdote as well?

Quoted message said:

To add to the difficulties of braking, a few miles later, I was doing 42mph
and approaching a gentle corner with a broken surface. I would have been on
top to get some aero braking. I moved my right hand down to the brake (I
keep my left hand on top to bear my weight through the palm and brake
against the thumb). The assymetry, presumably, triggered an almighty shimmy.
Interesting problem regaining symmetry while the oscillation is getting
worse... Must stop banging my head.

Shimmy can occur at any speed and is generally of unknown origin. I'm
experienced it twice in my life. Once on my mother's bike (Still trying
to convince her to replace it!) and once on a Windcheetah before I got
the hang of the joystick (Wasn't really proper shimmy, but felt the
same). I've moved my hands all around the bars on my Giant at speeds in
excess of 35mph (I don't tend to do 40mph+ unless I know the road or can
see well ahead!) and never had any control problems. Are you gripping to
tight? Perhaps the thrill of the speed was making you quiver with
excitement.

You clearly don't like drops. That's absolutely fine, but to belittle
them, and anyone that uses them is both arrogant and stupid. To do so
twice, offering the same daft opinions as the previous time is more so.
Just change the bars on all your bikes to flats and stop moaning about
something that the rest of us don't suffer from.

Jon

DavidR <david.nospam.r_a@t_cwcom.net> wrote:

: No, the height & reach is correct. It is that drop bars are not hand shaped
: and they only offer two basic positions (the drop, of course, and one other
: position somewhere between hood & stem, depending on setup).

There's nothing wrong with not liking drop bars. Lots of people don't.

However, I think that it sounds like the reach is too long for you.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 23:37:35 +0100, Jon Senior
<jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> wrote (more or less):

Quoted message said:

DavidR david.nospam.r_a@t_cwcom.net opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Agree with Jon, and something to think about - perhaps the stem height
on a drop bar bike is wrong for you?

I read about the problems you were having learning to use them. At least I
can use the brakes (even if I agree that it is not a piece of cake).

Dangerous!

Quoted message said:

No, the height & reach is correct. It is that drop bars are not hand shaped
and they only offer two basic positions (the drop, of course, and one other
position somewhere between hood & stem, depending on setup).

If you remember the last time this was aired by you, you'll also
presumably remember that considerably more positions were offered than
you suggest. IIRC there were at least seven. Since we're discussing
positions... flat bars offer only one.

Mmm - mine offered three, before I put bar ends on.

Actually, I've just thought of one more, cribbed from Simon's list.
Actually two more mfrom Simon's list. Actually, I think I'll just
enumerate them, then count at the end.

And to ensure no cheating, these are all positions I have adopted in
actual riding.

As Simon points out, there's no-handed, and maximally upright, with
just two fingers on the top of the bars.

There's 'normal', with palms on handles, fingers curled forwards and
around the bar.

There's using the ends of your bars, palms cupped over them, and
thumbs leading.

Continue the turn, and then put the heels of the palms on the grips,
and the fingers curl under the bar to grip.

Okay, I make that five.

(Plus the other one I use, but /really/ don't recommmend!)

I would like one of those long 'U' shaped loops added to my flats, for
dropping down into sever headwinds, tho'.

Quoted message said:

Because there are a multitude of positions available and moving between
them allows you to alter your whole body position thus adjusting
yourself according to the conditions, and stretching any muscles that
might have become stiff due to a long period in the saddle. Of course...
you could just lie back and take the weight off your hands.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

... "I don't understand why they are promoted for
leisure riding" question. He thought for a moment and suggested it was
probably a cultural thing - which rather echoed my thinking.

And how many times have you broached the subject and had people suggest
that it was due to the comfort offered? I can think of at least two that
we've all witnessed. Why didn't you mention this anecdote as well?

....

Quoted message said:

You clearly don't like drops. That's absolutely fine, but to belittle
them, and anyone that uses them is both arrogant and stupid. To do so
twice, offering the same daft opinions as the previous time is more so.
Just change the bars on all your bikes to flats and stop moaning about
something that the rest of us don't suffer from.

Quite. (And I'm a flat-bar person!)

Chacun a son gout. De gustibus non est disputandem. There's no
accounting for taste. etc.,etc.,

--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

On Tue, 31 Aug 2004 23:37:35 +0100, Jon Senior wrote (more or less):
....
I've moved my hands all around the bars on my Giant at speeds in

Quoted message said:

excess of 35mph (I don't tend to do 40mph+ unless I know the road or can
see well ahead!) and never had any control problems.

'know the road /and/ can see well ahead', surely?

--
Cheers,
Euan
Gawnsoft: http://www.gawnsoft.co.sr
Symbian/Epoc wiki: http://html.dnsalias.net:1122
Smalltalk links (harvested from comp.lang.smalltalk) http://html.dnsalias.net/gawnsoft/smalltalk

Gawnsoft <[email hidden]> wrote:

: 'know the road /and/ can see well ahead', surely?

Nah. Where's the fun if you can see?

Look up. Head down in a tuck. View front wheel. Get much speed.
Repeat.

Arthur

--
Arthur Clune http://www.clune.org
"Technolibertarians make a philosophy out of a personality defect"
- Paulina Borsook

in message <[email hidden]>, Jon Senior

jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk ('') said:

Why do it at all? I don't like big knobbly tyres, being a road
cyclist. Thus I don't have two bikes equipped with 23mm slicks and a
third with 2.5" mud-grippers.

Jon, you need me to introduce you to some 2.1" mud grippers. Cycling on
the road is fun, granted; but cycling off-road is fun^2.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Iraq war: it's time for regime change...
... go now, Tony, while you can still go with dignity.

Simon Brooke said:

Jon, you need me to introduce you to some 2.1" mud grippers. Cycling on
the road is fun, granted; but cycling off-road is fun^2.

It can be, but not necessarily so. In practice for me I find it's nice
once in a while, but I have a couple of caveats with an MTB day. First,
it's quite uncomfortable compared to cruising on the 'bent, but mostly I
tend not to see nearly as much of the land I'm travelling through, with
my concentration focused on the immediate path of the bike in relation
to rocks, tree roots etc.

I find it's a bit like the difference between white water paddling and
sea kayaking, or downhill ski compared to XC. More exciting in the
bumpy and more something to do for the sake of the activity itself, but
I'm more interested in the travel aspect.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

Jon, you need me to introduce you to some 2.1" mud grippers. Cycling on
the road is fun, granted; but cycling off-road is fun^2.

Quoted message said:

It can be, but not necessarily so. In practice for me I find it's nice
once in a while, but I have a couple of caveats with an MTB day.

However, Sunday's off-road trip would have worked better with mudgrippers
and very low gears than with the Fiero on Stelvios...

(and pushing a 'bent up a steep rocky path is bloody hard work!)

Roos

Roos Eisma said:

However, Sunday's off-road trip would have worked better with mudgrippers
and very low gears than with the Fiero on Stelvios...

(and pushing a 'bent up a steep rocky path is bloody hard work!)

For those who didn't follow the Edinburgh threads, said steep rocky
path[1] was pat of NCN1. Don't know what Sustrans were thinking when
they put that bit in...

Pete.

[1] though to be fair describing it as merely "steep rocky" doesn't
account for the mud, gravel, vegetation and narrowness aspects.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Arthur Clune [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Gawnsoft <[email hidden]> wrote:

: 'know the road /and/ can see well ahead', surely?

Nah. Where's the fun if you can see?

Look up. Head down in a tuck. View front wheel. Get much speed.
Repeat.

He he. We've all played that game at some point!

Jon