Handle bars again

"Velvet" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I've always wanted a 'proper' racing style bike, never had

Go for it. I find it entertaining (downhill braking & 42mph shimmies
excepted).

Quoted message said:

Enough waffling now, I'm back to lurk in the corner.

No problem.

"Jon Senior" <jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk> wrote

Quoted message said:

DavidR david.nospam.r_a@t_cwcom.net opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I said it was an impossibility for everyone...?

No. But have implied in as much in the past and continue to do so now
(Albeit a little less vehemously).

Small differences tend to get blown out of proportion. It is mainly the
difficulty of explaining matters in a text only medium.

Quoted message said:

If you consider dexterity to be a problem WRT drops, this may suggest a
reason why you dislike them.

I have sufficient coordination and dexterity.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not necessary. I can prop my bike up and move my hands around.
Doesn't count.

Why not?

Static rehearsals don't include the loads incurred while riding. I doubt
even a turbo trainer does it fully.

DavidR said:

Go for it. I find it entertaining (downhill braking & 42mph shimmies
excepted).

Shimmies can happen on anything, and are not exclusively for owners of
drop bars. Downhill braking always seemed to work on my drop bar bike,
especially down on the drops, though well enough from the hoods most of
the time (only "most", but they were sidepull Weinmans and the bike
would often be carrying luggage).

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

in message <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch

(') said:

DavidR said:

Go for it. I find it entertaining (downhill braking & 42mph shimmies
excepted).

Shimmies can happen on anything, and are not exclusively for owners of
drop bars. Downhill braking always seemed to work on my drop bar
bike, especially down on the drops, though well enough from the hoods
most of the time (only "most", but they were sidepull Weinmans and the
bike would often be carrying luggage).

Yup. If you read my ride report from the Coldingham Audax, you will have
read an account of the last ride I ever made with Weinmann sidepulls.
Always appalling, no power and horribly tricky to adjust. The very next
week I fitted Campag dual pivots to that bike, and I've fitted Campag
dual pivots to my new bike. The difference is astounding. I've no doubt
at all that it would be possible if you were sufficiently foolish to
lock both wheels from the hoods at any speed. Donwhill braking no
longer holds any fears.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth
;; knowledge increaseth sorrow.." - Ecclesiastes 1:18

Simon Brooke wrote:
.........

Quoted message said:

The very next week I fitted Campag dual pivots to that bike, and I've
fitted Campag dual pivots to my new bike. The difference is
astounding. I've no doubt at all that it would be possible if you
were sufficiently foolish to lock both wheels from the hoods at any
speed. Donwhill braking no longer holds any fears.

I'm afraid I have been that foolish, well, panicked. The front tyre won't
skid on clean dry tarmac but will stop turning. You and the back of the
bike will go over the handlebars, in other words (unless you brace
sufficiently or ease braking). All from the hoods.

I prefer to use a Campag single-pivot at the rear. More pad clearance for
the same lever pull, less grabby, less weight.

~PB

Pete Biggs said:

I prefer to use a Campag single-pivot at the rear. More pad clearance for
the same lever pull, less grabby, less weight.

And if you're really slamming on the anchors they really don't need to
be that powerful to lock things up at the back anyway, so dual pivots
are actually rather more than you need there.

IIRC the Brom came with a dual on the front and single behind, seems
like a sensible configuration on a racer too.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

I scribbled::

Quoted message said:

The front tyre
won't skid on clean dry tarmac but will stop turning.

Actually the rear wheel rises before the front wheel stops (if it does),
but you get the idea.

~PB

in message <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch

(') said:

Pete Biggs said:

I prefer to use a Campag single-pivot at the rear. More pad
clearance for the same lever pull, less grabby, less weight.

And if you're really slamming on the anchors they really don't need to
be that powerful to lock things up at the back anyway, so dual pivots
are actually rather more than you need there.

IIRC the Brom came with a dual on the front and single behind, seems
like a sensible configuration on a racer too.

Campag Record and Chorus groupsets come with this configuration as
standard. But the cheaper groupsets that us ordinary people can afford
get dual pivot front and rear. Not sure why, as they must be more
expensive to make.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

There are no messages. The above is just a random stream of
bytes. Any opinion or meaning you find in it is your own creation.

Simon Brooke said:

Quoted message said:

IIRC the Brom came with a dual on the front and single behind, seems
like a sensible configuration on a racer too.

Campag Record and Chorus groupsets come with this configuration as
standard. But the cheaper groupsets that us ordinary people can afford
get dual pivot front and rear. Not sure why, as they must be more
expensive to make.

Hopefully the option will trickle down to the lower groups soon. I'm
using a '97 Avanti SP rear with '02 Mirage DP front.

~PB

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

DavidR said:

Go for it. I find it entertaining (downhill braking & 42mph shimmies
excepted).

Shimmies can happen on anything, and are not exclusively for owners of
drop bars.

Intended as anecdote only.

Quoted message said:

Downhill braking always seemed to work on my drop bar bike,
especially down on the drops, though well enough from the hoods most of
the time (only "most", but they were sidepull Weinmans and the bike
would often be carrying luggage).

I am talking about 1 in 6's for myself but I know people that dislike lesser
hills (amongst all bar type users). Though at this incline, the lowering of
the bar by 4 inches wrt the saddle is not trivial for braking from the drops
(for those of us that can't brake from the hoods).

in message <[email hidden]>, DavidR

('david.nospam.r_a@t_cwcom.net') said:

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

DavidR wrote:

Quoted message said:

Downhill braking always seemed to work on my drop bar bike,
especially down on the drops, though well enough from the hoods most
of the time (only "most", but they were sidepull Weinmans and the
bike would often be carrying luggage).

I am talking about 1 in 6's for myself but I know people that dislike
lesser hills (amongst all bar type users). Though at this incline, the
lowering of the bar by 4 inches wrt the saddle is not trivial for
braking from the drops (for those of us that can't brake from the
hoods).

This is where mountain bike experience is beneficial. Slip off the back
of the saddle and hang out over the rear tyre. You can get your centre
of gravity dramatically further back and lower without letting go of
the brake levers. Practice this at low speeds and on lesser inclines
before trying it at high speed on steeper inclines.

Oh, and I'm told that allowing your [censored] to actually make contact with
the back wheel at speed is a _seriously_ bad idea, so get a good feel
for how low you can safely go.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; all in all you're just another click in the call
;; -- Minke Bouyed

DavidR said:

I am talking about 1 in 6's for myself but I know people that dislike lesser
hills (amongst all bar type users). Though at this incline, the lowering of
the bar by 4 inches wrt the saddle is not trivial for braking from the drops
(for those of us that can't brake from the hoods).

We have 1:6s and steeper round here, and they weren't an issue. Getting
behind the drops lets you brace back from the bars very effectively and
combining that with lowering your centre of mass (and that of the whole
bike/rider combo) you'll reduce your chances of flying over the bars as
well. You still seem to be letting your personal dislike stray into
assuming they're generally bad.

I do appreciate where you're coming from though. I originally got drops
as a kid because that meant it was a Proper Bike, no other reason. But
they really can work, and there's not necessarily an intrinsic problem
for using them for other than speed and distance. I used my tourer as a
shopping and commuter bike too, and I never felt limited by the bars. I
prefer flat bars on a utility machine these days, but for an all round
bike they really needn't be a problem /if/ the rider gets on with them.
Which they may or may not do, just like flat bars or moustache bars.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

DavidR david.nospam.r_a@t_cwcom.net opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Small differences tend to get blown out of proportion. It is mainly the
difficulty of explaining matters in a text only medium.

True.

Quoted message said:

I have sufficient coordination and dexterity.

I was just offering a suggestion.

Quoted message said:

Static rehearsals don't include the loads incurred while riding. I doubt
even a turbo trainer does it fully.

A turbo trainer might actually exacerbate any discomfort since it raises
the rear wheel (Unless you have one of those little blocks for the
front!) and increasing the load on the hands.

Jon

Jon Senior said:

DavidR david.nospam.r_a@t_cwcom.net opined the following...

Quoted message said:

Small differences tend to get blown out of proportion. It is mainly the
difficulty of explaining matters in a text only medium.

True.

Quoted message said:

I have sufficient coordination and dexterity.

I was just offering a suggestion.

Quoted message said:

Static rehearsals don't include the loads incurred while riding. I doubt
even a turbo trainer does it fully.

A turbo trainer might actually exacerbate any discomfort since it raises
the rear wheel (Unless you have one of those little blocks for the
front!) and increasing the load on the hands.

Jon

Would agree with that - but also, very little in the way of distractions
from any discomfort when on a turbo. I always find it harder to
maintain the sort of levels I can/am forced to when out on the road,
simply because my brain isn't distracted by the complicated business of
steering/balance/watching for potholes etc, and can thus devote *far*
more attention to just how much the legs hurt!

I've got one of those blocks. Found in pretty short order turboing
without it was very precarious, to be constantly pointing downhill (mind
you, perhaps I should practice without it occasionally)! Though I have
read of people propping the front wheel up more than normal to simulate
climbing hills (and standing while they do it) - but I a) dont' find
that necessary, give me a big enough gear and I can now get out the
saddle, but b) I think it puts a hell of a lot of stress on the frame
from being locked in the turbo if you do it, and I've recently realised
just how much my frame flexes when I'm on the turbo (and apparently on
the road, but I don't have hte time to look down and see it).

Turbo stuff has made road stuff easier, though initially while I was
learning the way the bike handled, it was bad, because I was learning
how it *didn't* handle ;-) I use it to do a bike-based variety of
situps too, which have done wonders for being lighter on the bars
through strengthening the core body bits (just raise yourself slowly up
and down on and off the bars - slowly being the important bit, doing it
fast removes all benefit from it - while pedalling at a decent
resistance/cadence etc).

--

Velvet

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

You still seem to be letting your personal dislike stray into
assuming they're generally bad.

The use of the word *dislike* suggests the matter is entirely subjective.
If it was only me, I would not have an issue but do I see others having
similar or greater difficulties. If people like them despite this, that is
quite a different matter.

It is a mechanical device that has to interface to another mechanical device
(bone and flesh) and must inevitably must have real compromises and
imperfections. Nobody seems to prepared to entertain the possibility
that they might exist.

DavidR said:

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

You still seem to be letting your personal dislike stray into
assuming they're generally bad.

The use of the word *dislike* suggests the matter is entirely
subjective. If it was only me, I would not have an issue but do I see
others having similar or greater difficulties. If people like them
despite this, that is quite a different matter.

It is a mechanical device that has to interface to another mechanical
device (bone and flesh) and must inevitably must have real
compromises and imperfections. Nobody seems to prepared to entertain
the possibility that they might exist.

Nobody needs to say a device is imperfect because all devices are. The
point is that plenty of us find fewer compromises have to be made with
drop bars than with flats because we find them more versatile and just
simply more comfortable and efficient.

I for one don't claim drop bars are easy to choose and setup (nor any
bars, for that matter). As well as fitting the bike to your body,
subjectivity does come into it: what kind of feeling and control your
*mind* likes, plus some people are more sensitive than others, so
different people like different models of drops and them setup in
different ways. It took me quite some time to get my bars and stem sorted
but the end result is good for me.

You might have spent plenty of time messing about too but I bet you
haven't been doing the right things, or if you really have then you should
have completely abandoned the idea of using drops by now. No-one claims
everyone prefers them. It is ludicrous of you to imply those who do say
they prefer them are lying or fooling themselves. I could have built my
bikes with any old bars, I still can change the bars, but I didn't and
don't because I genuinely prefer drops (for general road cycling), and I
have got enough experience of flat bars to know the differences.

You don't seem to have moved on since you brought up the subject last time
on the group. I remember suggesting 3T Morphe bars then you claiming
yours were already like it, but the ones in the picture you posted were
not, actually.

~PB

DavidR said:

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

You still seem to be letting your personal dislike stray into
assuming they're generally bad.

The use of the word *dislike* suggests the matter is entirely subjective.
If it was only me, I would not have an issue but do I see others having
similar or greater difficulties. If people like them despite this, that is
quite a different matter.

It is a mechanical device that has to interface to another mechanical device
(bone and flesh) and must inevitably must have real compromises and
imperfections. Nobody seems to prepared to entertain the possibility
that they might exist.

I think almost everyone's aware there might be compromises and
imperfections, it's more a matter of whether the benefits outweight the
disadvantages, IMO - and that's something that will be different for
different people.

I will happily stand up and be counted as one who likes them *despite*
it being harder to brake *for me* sometimes with them, than using flat
bars would be. The crux of the matter *for me* is that I don't think I
would find it as comfortable to ride 50 miles with flat bars - simply
due to the lack of variety in hand positions (bar ends would provide two
positions, but I use way more than that on drop bars).

I accept my 'difficulties' using them are in all likelyhood just down to
unfamiliarity and adult nervousness. They were scary as hell initially.
I persevered, tweaked, wondered if I was doing the right thing,
tweaked more, put more cautious miles in, tweaked a bit more, and now
they are no longer scary as hell - in fact, whereas before I had to
really think about balance/steering, it's second nature, and they feel
nowhere near as twitchy as they used to. That wasn't an overnight
process. I could have given up, tarred all drop bars as stupidly
inappropriate for leisure riders, and got flats put on. I didn't, and
I'm bloody glad I didn't.

If flats are better for you, use flats. If drops are better, use drops.
I don't see what the big deal is - change the bike to suit you, if you
don't get on with whatever it is - but don't assume what some don't get
on with none will get on with.

--

Velvet

in message <[email hidden]>, DavidR

('david.nospam.r_a@t_cwcom.net') said:

"Peter Clinch" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

You still seem to be letting your personal dislike stray into
assuming they're generally bad.

The use of the word *dislike* suggests the matter is entirely
subjective. If it was only me, I would not have an issue but do I see
others having similar or greater difficulties.

But (at least so far as this group is concerned) it does seem to be only
or largely you. I'm very well aware that many beginner or casual
cyclists don't like drops and prefer a more upright posture. But that
is (see your paragraph below) a compromise too, and a compromise in
which aerodynamics are a big loser. As aerodynamics is a major problem
for any cyclist doing more than casual distances, that's a big issue.

Quoted message said:

If people like them
despite this, that is quite a different matter.

But that's the point: the overwhelming majority of experienced long
distance cyclists use drops. They don't have to, so you have to assume
they choose to.

Quoted message said:

It is a mechanical device that has to interface to another mechanical
device (bone and flesh) and must inevitably must have real compromises
and imperfections. Nobody seems to prepared to entertain the
possibility that they might exist.

Of course they exist. I think all those of us who prefer drops are
saying is that, *for* *us*, drops represent the best compromise for
road riding we've yet found.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; 'I think we should trust our president in every decision
;; that he makes and we should just support that'
;; Britney Spears of George W Bush, CNN 04:09:03

DavidR said:

The use of the word *dislike* suggests the matter is entirely subjective.
If it was only me, I would not have an issue but do I see others having
similar or greater difficulties.

So they don't like them either. This hardly makes it a general case.

Quoted message said:

It is a mechanical device that has to interface to another mechanical device
(bone and flesh) and must inevitably must have real compromises and
imperfections. Nobody seems to prepared to entertain the possibility
that they might exist.

Problems will exist for some people because everyone has a different
personal physiology.

The same will go for flat bars, wide saddles, narrow saddles, short
cranks, long cranks, short stems, long stems, high bars, low bars, short
top tubes, long top tubes, any top tube at all, and so on. There are
variations available because not everyone likes or can use the same
things. But some things remain generally popular even though they are
not /universally/ popular.
Drop bars are one of these things. If you don't like them then don't
use them.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Velvet said:

bars would be. The crux of the matter *for me* is that I don't think I
would find it as comfortable to ride 50 miles with flat bars - simply
due to the lack of variety in hand positions (bar ends would provide two
positions, but I use way more than that on drop bars).

That's a difficult call, and there's more to it than counting hand
positions. If you're more upright you have less weight on the bars to
start with so there's less need of different hand positions. But OTOH
if you're more upright you'll catch the wind more, and that means either
more pedalling effort or you slow down so your weight is on the bars for
longer. Plus there's more weight on your bum. Like I said, it's
potentially a tough call which is more comfortable in a given situation.

The only way to be sure for yourself is to try the alternatives. But
lots of people have, and use drops by preference, which rather rules out
the drops are congenitally ghastly theory going about here!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/