yukk

Peter Clinch said:

Rob G said:

The fact that they get in the way is that you aren't really using them
properly

Sorry Rob, but that's just wrong. The time they most obviously get in
the way for me is when I want to do /anything/ with my hands, because
it's much more awkward with a pair of poles strapped to them. The most
obvious case is working with a map inna orienteering stylee, map always
in hand and thumb on approximate position, almost constantly updated,
which just happens to be my preferred way of walking.

Quoted message said:

- and the reason that everyone on the hills should use them,
including you, is to protect your knees. There would be far fewer
dodgy knees in middle aged mountaineers if they had used sticks to
take some of the load of their joints when they were younger.

I'm increasingly finding I use them less and less because I've refined
downhill technique to take it on my thighs rather than my knees. I do
wish I'd worked that out 10 years sooner though. I still like poles for
really chunky descents, but more and more I just let my thighs take the
strain, rather than either my knees or my arms.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Quoted message said:

The time they most obviously get in

the way for me is when I want to do /anything/ with my hands,>

That I'm afraid is just too obvious an answer, Pete. I took it that
the OP meant that he tripped over them, and that, having been there, I
put down to lack of experience in using the poles.

I query your logic in arguing that modifying your descent technique to
place the load on your thigh muscles, does take the load off your
knees. Presumably your thinking is that by avoiding the direct load -
ie shock - on the straight knee joint, you are reducing the stress on
the joint, but surely your body weight still has to go through the
knee, bent to take it on the thigh muscles or otherwise. If in fact
the weight is on the soft tissue - ligaments/tendons - rather than the
knee's buffer cartilage, you are putting greater stress on the
attachment points which could equally be undesirable.

I'm 65 and have mountaineered all my life in the Scottish hills and
abroad. I've had a lengthy period with knee troubles which have now
resolved fortunately, and one of the cures I'm sure is using poles -
and I wish they had been around when I was younger. I don't know in
hindsight whether I would have necessarily used them, but then the
fault would have been min, not the lack of equipment to possibly
protect me from injury.

There is of course nothing worse than a late convert (!), but I think
you are unwise to reduce your usage of poles.

Regards

Rob

Peter Clinch said:

Jim Ford said:

Peter Clinch said:

I find a bladder very handy when I have my hands full (particularly
canoeing/kayaking, the bladder sits in the back pocket of my BA very
happily).

What does the 'BA' stand for Pete - 'Big [censored]'?
;^) <---- Please note!

I suppose to some extent my Big [censored] /is/ a Buoyancy Aid, but it's not a
very useful place to put the Plat...

Pete.

It's also on the wrong side for your purpose - unless you can snorkel
through it.
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

Rob G said:

That I'm afraid is just too obvious an answer, Pete. I took it that
the OP meant that he tripped over them, and that, having been there, I
put down to lack of experience in using the poles.

I can't particularly recall tripping over mine, but I can think of
plenty of steep and technical places where they've got in the way. I
also know for a fact that Roos finds walking near me when I'm using
poles a rather unpleasant experience, as she feels they get in /her/ way.

Quoted message said:

I query your logic in arguing that modifying your descent technique to
place the load on your thigh muscles, does take the load off your
knees. Presumably your thinking is that by avoiding the direct load -
ie shock - on the straight knee joint, you are reducing the stress on
the joint, but surely your body weight still has to go through the
knee, bent to take it on the thigh muscles or otherwise. If in fact
the weight is on the soft tissue - ligaments/tendons - rather than the
knee's buffer cartilage, you are putting greater stress on the
attachment points which could equally be undesirable.

My thinking is I've tried it and seems to work remarkably well. The
soft tissue is in good shape thanks to lots of cycling, spinning low
gears, and the telemarking keeps them in trim too (another case in
point: people look at the bent-knee technique and assume it must be hell
on knees, but I find it /much/ preferable for my knees to parallel
technique, as with the knees well bent the shock is taken on the
supporting soft tissue which is in trim and use to it).

In the early/mid 90s I remember walking down Driesh and having (and I
mean "having to" as in requiring) to stop a few times for knee-comfort
breaks. A year later with poles and much, much better. But not as good
then with as I can manage now without them.

Quoted message said:

I'm 65 and have mountaineered all my life in the Scottish hills and
abroad. I've had a lengthy period with knee troubles which have now
resolved fortunately, and one of the cures I'm sure is using poles -

I also used poles to get me out of considerable discomfort, but now I'm
out of it I find I can do a lot I never used to be able to do without
them by virtue of better downhill technique. I still like and use them
for particularly long/steep descents and for 4WD on steep ups, but I've
found strong thighs and keeping my legs bent while I go down actually
works better than using poles if it isn't the sort of slope where my
thighs will explode!

Quoted message said:

There is of course nothing worse than a late convert (!), but I think
you are unwise to reduce your usage of poles.

I'm quicker, carrying less, enjoy myself more and my hands are free, and
I don't end up annoying my usual walking companion nearly so much. But
I do have them when I really want them.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

My thinking is I've tried it and seems to work remarkably well. The
soft tissue is in good shape thanks to lots of cycling, spinning low
gears, and the telemarking keeps them in trim too (another case in
point: people look at the bent-knee technique and assume it must be hell
on knees, but I find it /much/ preferable for my knees to parallel
technique, as with the knees well bent the shock is taken on the
supporting soft tissue which is in trim and use to it).

This is the technique that I use. So long as the knees aren't too bent
(then the knecap gets it) the thighs take the strain. I'm good uphill, due
to cycling, so using the same muscles downhill makes sense.
Although here (S. of Northampton) has few hills, it's possible to cycle in
a way that builds up the groups needed for walking. I find that honking,
full-cycle input and applying downward force on the pedals with the leg not
very bent execises the groups that normal riding doesn't.
OK, I'm 'only' 60, but (touch wood) no problem with knees, even though I'm
in shorts for most of the Winter.
The 'FWD' concept is valid: we pay a high price for walking upright!
--
Peter.
You don't understand Newton's Third Law of Motion?
It's not rocket science, you know.

In message <[email hidden]
ps.com>

Rob G said:

On 28 Nov, 09:16, Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The time they most obviously get in

the way for me is when I want to do /anything/ with my hands,>

Quoted message said:

That I'm afraid is just too obvious an answer, Pete. I took it that
the OP meant that he tripped over them, and that, having been there, I
put down to lack of experience in using the poles.

No, I didn't mean tripping over them, I meant (apart from the obvious
times when you have to use your hands) that I find having anything
much in my hands inconvenient. I feel far, far more comfortable having
my hands free most of the time.

If it was simply the body weight on your knees that was the issue then
it wouldn't make any difference if you were going up, down, or level.
My personal experience after a long descent is that my muscles feel
tired, but my knees don't feel like I've been hammering them.

--
Simon Challands

Gordon said:

I suspect it's the same process by which natural Mineral water goes "off" if
you drink out of the bottle and then leave it for some days. Bacteria from
the mouth get washed back into the container and then start multiplying...

We might be getting mixed up between algae, fungi and bacteria here
but they all need something to live on. I'm amazed that the water in
the dehumidifier I use in my drying closet will turn green if left for
a while, there is only the point of entry via the tube from the
condenser and it should be near enough distilled water!

AJH

"AJH" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Gordon said:

I suspect it's the same process by which natural Mineral water goes "off"
if
you drink out of the bottle and then leave it for some days. Bacteria from
the mouth get washed back into the container and then start multiplying...

We might be getting mixed up between algae, fungi and bacteria here
but they all need something to live on. I'm amazed that the water in
the dehumidifier I use in my drying closet will turn green if left for
a while, there is only the point of entry via the tube from the
condenser and it should be near enough distilled water!

AJH

What about the crude that gets sucked in and goes though any filters that
might be there?

Quoted message said:

1) They look 'cool'.
2) Errm?

Well, if you mountain bike they allow you to drink the water without
having a mouthpiece covered in mud, which you would usually get with
frame mounted bottles.

For walking, perhaps not as much advantage to them. I haven't had the
taste problems others have had, but they are awkward to clean.

Simon
--
http://www.simonwyndham.co.uk

michael k said:

Quoted message said:

I'm amazed that the water in
the dehumidifier I use in my drying closet will turn green if left for
a while, there is only the point of entry via the tube from the
condenser and it should be near enough distilled water!

AJH

What about the crude that gets sucked in and goes though any filters that
might be there?

Yes the algae must be in the air and dust particles may have the
minerals they need but I'm still surprised how this green appears.

AJH

In message <[email hidden]>, Jim Ford
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Dominic Sexton said:

A bacteria bottle can indeed serve as an alternative to a nice fresh
sparkly clean water bladder. However you said it can serve exactly the
same function which it cannot without the addition of a drinking tube.

If you want a bottle to serve the same function as a bladder+tube,
you'll need to half fill the bottle with TCP and top up with water to
get it to taste the same!

Jim Ford

Rubbish.

Of course if one isn't fussy about washing the bladder and tube properly
then you're probably right.

TCP !! the memories haunt me :-)
--
Bill Grey

In message <[email hidden]>, michael k
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Going back to the subject of these bladders, in my life I have met one
person hospitalised for hydration problems, she had overdosed on water from
a bladder.

fascinating - truly fascinating :-)
--
Bill Grey

On 1 Dec,

Bill Grey said:

TCP !! the memories haunt me :-)

TCP, The bugs thrived on it if it was diluted enough.

--
BD
Change lycos to yahoo to reply

In article <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Bernard Hill said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Peter Clinch
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

(same with walking poles, most of which seem to be out there because
someone said they're good rather than they're doing any good).

Oh No! An essential piece of equipment. If I found out I had left them
at home when arriving for a mountain walk I would abandon it.

You've obviously not got pain in the knees like I have. Every step down
is a sharp pain but is alleviated by levering myself down on the poles.

Note I didn't say they're not any good (if I thought that, then
http://www.personal.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/poles.htm would be *very*
different!), but that most of the ones out there don't actually do any
good in practice.

Yes. A good site. I agree with all your advice.

Quoted message said:

Look at most other pole users and they wave them ineffectually at the
ground every couple of paces and don't actually put any weight through
them (maybe just as well for their fingers, since most of them aren't
using the straps to take any weight...). Used like that they don't do
anything for the knees: that requires active work with the arms, and
where it isn't done the poles are really an affectation rather than a
good way to redirect body weight.

Yup, seen that.

Quoted message said:

I don't use my poles nearly as much as I used to, and a lot of that is
building up the supporting muscles around the knee. Now I can take
downhills much better on my things, keeping my knees bent during
descents, which saves faffing about with poles. You need pretty chunky
thighs to get away with it though, and I still like poles on big, steep
and sustained routes down.

That's what I've never been able to manage. I don't have a lot of
strength in my thighs. I'm 60 and probably overweight at 14st but when
coming down steep sections (they all have considerable steep sections on
real mountains!) I find I am actually *stepping* one step at a time just
like coming down stairs. So the lower leg is always straight as it's
about 6" below the upper one.

That's where planting a long pole in advance is really great.
--
Bernard Hill
Selkirk, Scotland