Yet another official "no helmet law must be bad" report

[[email protected]]

Coyoteboy wrote:
> agree! Modern bright lights totally mask small bike lights and
> pedestrians with no lights. But then if we didnt have them people would
> walk out into cars and claim they didnt see them as they had dim
> headlights.

Er, why would they? I don't see what they'd gain by doing so.

Lamp posts aren't illuminated at 3pm (at this time of year, at least)
and I very very rarely see anyone walking into them and claiming not to
have seen them. Nor, for that matter, houses, fences, and wheelie bins.
Why would cars be different? Unless they're moving so fast or so
unpredictably that the pedestrians *really* didn't see them, but your
wording seems to imply untruthfulness.



-dan

 

[David Damerell]

Quoting iarocu <[email protected]>:
>On 20 Nov, 09:48, David Damerell <[email protected]>
>>No-one's forcing you to endanger children by driving outside schools.
>>That's a choice you make and it's a selfish and irresponsible one.
>All my regular journeys pass have to pass one of the schools in the
>area.

All my regular journeys going East pass a school. I never drive past a
school.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
Today is Second Monday, November.

 

[David Damerell]

Quoting Coyoteboy <[email protected]>:
>David Damerell wrote:
>>No-one's forcing you to endanger children by driving outside schools.
>>That's a choice you make and it's a selfish and irresponsible one.
>PMSL, I can't believe you are serious in half of your posts. You really
>do think the world is black and white don't you. That no-one lives
>near/next to a school. That everyone can get to their house without
>passing a school.

No; I think drivers should accept that they selfishly risk other people's
lives for their own convenience.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
Today is Second Monday, November.

 

[Ekul Namsob]

iarocu <[email protected]> wrote:

> On 20 Nov, 09:48, David Damerell <[email protected]>
> wrote:
>
> > No-one's forcing you to endanger children by driving outside schools.
> > That's a choice you make and it's a selfish and irresponsible one.

> All my regular journeys pass have to pass one of the schools in the
> area. So are we supposed to stay home because schools are built beside
> main roads? Perhaps the irresponsible choice was building schools
> beside main roads and without any off street parking for parents?

Why do parents need off street parking? Most of the parents I know are
quite capable of walking, cycling and using a bus. I'm quite capable of
walking, cycling and using a bus (not simultaneously). It is an
exceedingly rare occurrence for me to drive to my daughter's school.

Cheers,
Luke

--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>

 

[Don Whybrow]

Ekul Namsob wrote:
>
> Why do parents need off street parking? Most of the parents I know are
> quite capable of walking, cycling and using a bus. I'm quite capable of
> walking, cycling and using a bus (not simultaneously). It is an
> exceedingly rare occurrence for me to drive to my daughter's school.

Some people drive to work, and drop off the kids on the way. Would you
suggest that they walk to school to drop the kids off, walk back home
and then take the car to work. Personally if I am doing the school run,
we will walk with me pushing my bike and I will then cycle to work from
the school. However as my wife is unable to cycle to work she uses the
does the car thing if she is doing the run. Mind you, there is hardly a
seething mass to contend with when dropping off before 8 for the
breakfast club.

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

"My God! The thought of that evil man, loose in London--with
money, from God only knows what source--fomenting riot and
rebellion during a public emergency--and in control of an Engine-
driven press! It's nightmarish!" (Gibson-Sterling, "The
Difference Engine")

 

[burtthebike]

"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:z3*[email protected]...
> Quoting Coyoteboy <[email protected]>:
>>David Damerell wrote:
>>>No-one's forcing you to endanger children by driving outside schools.
>>>That's a choice you make and it's a selfish and irresponsible one.
>>PMSL, I can't believe you are serious in half of your posts. You really
>>do think the world is black and white don't you. That no-one lives
>>near/next to a school. That everyone can get to their house without
>>passing a school.
>
> No; I think drivers should accept that they selfishly risk other people's
> lives for their own convenience.

Interesting point, and I've never thought of it in those terms before.
Thanks David.

I guess this poses the problem that, since most people are selfish, how do
we get the selfish car drivers to accept their responsibilities to other
people, assuming that they would be unselfish enough even to acknowledge
them.

 

[David Damerell]

Quoting burtthebike <[email protected]>:
>"David Damerell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>No; I think drivers should accept that they selfishly risk other people's
>>lives for their own convenience.
>I guess this poses the problem that, since most people are selfish, how do
>we get the selfish car drivers to accept their responsibilities to other
>people,

Well, one possibility would be to acknowledge that when "accidents" happen
they are not accidents; that every single impact involving a motor vehicle
is the result of a definite choice to drive - and to make the motorist
always liable to some degree. Which is sort of where I came in, in this
thread.
--
David Damerell <[email protected]> flcl?
Today is Second Tuesday, November.

 

[[email protected]]

On Nov 22, 11:57 pm, Don Whybrow <[email protected]> wrote:
> Ekul Namsob wrote:
>
> > Why do parents need off street parking? Most of the parents I know are
> > quite capable of walking, cycling and using a bus. I'm quite capable of
> > walking, cycling and using a bus (not simultaneously). It is an
> > exceedingly rare occurrence for me to drive to my daughter's school.
>
> Some people drive to work, and drop off the kids on the way. Would you
> suggest that they walk to school to drop the kids off, walk back home
> and then take the car to work.

I certainly wouldn't suggest that their choices on where to work,
live, send their kids to school and their personal convenience
automatically overrides consideration of the negative impact of their
travel choices which is what your question sounds like it is
implying. Of course I don't think either that school run mums should
be specially singled out over other commuters in the search for
solutions to congestion problems either.

best wishes
james

 

[Roos Eisma]

"[email protected]" <[email protected]> writes:

>On Nov 22, 11:57 pm, Don Whybrow <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Ekul Namsob wrote:
>>
>> > Why do parents need off street parking? Most of the parents I know are
>> > quite capable of walking, cycling and using a bus. I'm quite capable of
>> > walking, cycling and using a bus (not simultaneously). It is an
>> > exceedingly rare occurrence for me to drive to my daughter's school.
>>
>> Some people drive to work, and drop off the kids on the way. Would you
>> suggest that they walk to school to drop the kids off, walk back home
>> and then take the car to work.

>I certainly wouldn't suggest that their choices on where to work,
>live, send their kids to school and their personal convenience
>automatically overrides consideration of the negative impact of their
>travel choices which is what your question sounds like it is
>implying. Of course I don't think either that school run mums should
>be specially singled out over other commuters in the search for
>solutions to congestion problems either.

The school I cycle past on my way to work has its usual number of parents
in cars dropping off kids right in front of the school.
However, these are teenagers.... I hope that if we have a teenager at some
point they will be able to make their own way to school, or at least walk
a couple of hundred meter from a more suitable drop-off point. Those same
teenagers seems perfectly capable of walking half a mile into town for
lunch, without parental supervision

Roos

 

[Alan Braggins]

In article <[email protected]>, Don Whybrow wrote:
>
>Some people drive to work, and drop off the kids on the way. Would you
>suggest that they walk to school to drop the kids off, walk back home
>and then take the car to work.

I'd suggest that it would probably be practical for some but not all of
them to do so, and that it would be healthier for them and safer for other
children if more parents did that when they could (as well as more convenient
for those who really do need to find a parking space).

 

[CJ]

Has anyone checked out the details of this report? It's rubbish.

The cycling part of the report card contains just four strategies that
the authors thought might make child cyclists safer:

1: National law requiring use of bicycle helmet while cycling

2: A national ministry/ government department with mandated
responsibility for child and adolescent cycling safety

3: A government approved national strategy with specific targets and
timelines related to child and adolescent cycling safety

4: A national media campaign at least once in past five years
targeting child and adolescent cycling safety

Scotland gets nil pwant (represented by a sad blue face - ahhh) for
everything cycling except the national ministry thing (a smiley 2
points for that!) adding up to a miserable 1 1/2 stars. Actually I didn't
know Scotland had such a ministry, but there you go.

So lets see how the Netherlands got on. Ooh dear, still only 2 1/2 stars
for cycling out of a possible five.

According to this report the ONLY significant thing that Holland does
better than Scotland, is number 4.

Brilliant, so now we know that all Scotland needs to do in order for
little Hamish to be just as safe as little Hans, is to have some kind
of child cycling safety campaign in the national media every few
years! (Funny, I thought there had been one, that with the animated X-
ray skeletons, but I guess it would have been just be too silly to let
Scotland get the same score as the Netherlands!)

Oddly enough, the authors of this report did not presume that child
cyclists might likewise benefit from a "National law that assumes
driver responsibility in a crash involving a child pedestrian". Either
that or they thought it would be too controversial. Blaming drivers
for killing pedestrians is one thing, but cyclists ... However I think
that might have provided them with a more credible pretext for
awarding higher scores to the North European countries!

 

[Roos Eisma]

CJ <[email protected]> writes:

>4: A national media campaign at least once in past five years
>targeting child and adolescent cycling safety

>Scotland gets nil pwant (represented by a sad blue face - ahhh) for
>everything cycling except the national ministry thing (a smiley 2
>points for that!) adding up to a miserable 1 1/2 stars. Actually I didn't
>know Scotland had such a ministry, but there you go.

>So lets see how the Netherlands got on. Ooh dear, still only 2 1/2 stars
>for cycling out of a possible five.

>According to this report the ONLY significant thing that Holland does
>better than Scotland, is number 4.

They used to do a good campaign at the beginning of school term with
posters 'We are going back to school' with illustrated posters to alert
other road users to wobbly children on bicycles.

Roos

 

[Ekul Namsob]

Don Whybrow <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ekul Namsob wrote:
> >
> > Why do parents need off street parking? Most of the parents I know are
> > quite capable of walking, cycling and using a bus. I'm quite capable of
> > walking, cycling and using a bus (not simultaneously). It is an
> > exceedingly rare occurrence for me to drive to my daughter's school.
>
> Some people drive to work, and drop off the kids on the way. Would you
> suggest that they walk to school to drop the kids off, walk back home
> and then take the car to work.

That's exactly what we do.

Cheers,
Luke


--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>

 

[Ekul Namsob]

Don Whybrow <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ekul Namsob wrote:
> >
> > Why do parents need off street parking? Most of the parents I know are
> > quite capable of walking, cycling and using a bus. I'm quite capable of
> > walking, cycling and using a bus (not simultaneously). It is an
> > exceedingly rare occurrence for me to drive to my daughter's school.
>
> Some people drive to work, and drop off the kids on the way. Would you
> suggest that they walk to school to drop the kids off, walk back home
> and then take the car to work.

That's exactly what we do, except on those mornings when Kate cycles to
work.

Cheers,
Luke


--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>

 

[Don Whybrow]

[email protected] wrote:
> On Nov 22, 11:57 pm, Don Whybrow <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Ekul Namsob wrote:
>>
>>> Why do parents need off street parking? Most of the parents I know are
>>> quite capable of walking, cycling and using a bus. I'm quite capable of
>>> walking, cycling and using a bus (not simultaneously). It is an
>>> exceedingly rare occurrence for me to drive to my daughter's school.
>> Some people drive to work, and drop off the kids on the way. Would you
>> suggest that they walk to school to drop the kids off, walk back home
>> and then take the car to work.
>
> I certainly wouldn't suggest that their choices on where to work,
> live, send their kids to school and their personal convenience
> automatically overrides consideration of the negative impact of their
> travel choices which is what your question sounds like it is
> implying. Of course I don't think either that school run mums should
> be specially singled out over other commuters in the search for
> solutions to congestion problems either.

What I was suggesting is that for a number of people, the act of
dropping the kids off at school is a part of their commute. No special
trip is being made, just a diversion past the school gates with a quick
stop to let the kids out before going on their way to join the nearest
traffic jam. As mentioned in my previous post, personally I walk as I
have my bike but I can see that this is not a practical option for all.

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

Give your child mental blocks for Christmas.

 

[Don Whybrow]

Alan Braggins wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>, Don Whybrow wrote:
>> Some people drive to work, and drop off the kids on the way. Would you
>> suggest that they walk to school to drop the kids off, walk back home
>> and then take the car to work.
>
> I'd suggest that it would probably be practical for some but not all of
> them to do so, and that it would be healthier for them and safer for other
> children if more parents did that when they could (as well as more convenient
> for those who really do need to find a parking space).

I would suggest that for a vast majority of working mums and dads,
effective time management is more important than the practical, health
or safety aspects of alternative child delivery systems. And who needs a
parking space? You turn up, stop at the roadside, let the kids out and
then drive off after waving them on their way. I'll grant you that you
may not want to use this approach if they are in P1-P3 so you can see
them safely into the building.

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

"I've noticed that the press tends to be quite accurate, except
when they're writing on a subject I know something about."
(Keith F. Lynch)

 

[Don Whybrow]

Ekul Namsob wrote:
> Don Whybrow <[email protected]> wrote:
>> Ekul Namsob wrote:
>>> Why do parents need off street parking? Most of the parents I know are
>>> quite capable of walking, cycling and using a bus. I'm quite capable of
>>> walking, cycling and using a bus (not simultaneously). It is an
>>> exceedingly rare occurrence for me to drive to my daughter's school.
>> Some people drive to work, and drop off the kids on the way. Would you
>> suggest that they walk to school to drop the kids off, walk back home
>> and then take the car to work.
>
> That's exactly what we do, except on those mornings when Kate cycles to
> work.

Fair enough, that is your choice. What makes you think that everyone
else should do as you do? Different folks have different needs and
aspirations.


--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

One tentacle, one vote.

 

[Ekul Namsob]

Don Whybrow <[email protected]> wrote:

> Ekul Namsob wrote:
> > Don Whybrow <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Ekul Namsob wrote:
> >>> Why do parents need off street parking? Most of the parents I know are
> >>> quite capable of walking, cycling and using a bus. I'm quite capable of
> >>> walking, cycling and using a bus (not simultaneously). It is an
> >>> exceedingly rare occurrence for me to drive to my daughter's school.
> >> Some people drive to work, and drop off the kids on the way. Would you
> >> suggest that they walk to school to drop the kids off, walk back home
> >> and then take the car to work.
> >
> > That's exactly what we do, except on those mornings when Kate cycles to
> > work.
>
> Fair enough, that is your choice. What makes you think that everyone
> else should do as you do?

I never suggested that they should.

> Different folks have different needs and aspirations.

Indeed. Just look at the number of children nowadays who cannot believe
that a person could walk a couple of miles. Indeed, a lot of children
could walk to school on their own. I seem to recall that I did that from
the age of seven or so.

cheers,
Luke

--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>

 

[Alan Braggins]

In article <[email protected]>, Don Whybrow wrote:
> And who needs a
>parking space? You turn up, stop at the roadside

Depends on the school. While it might be legal even on double yellow
lines, there are places where parents doing that cause significant
obstructions.

 

[Ekul Namsob]

Alan Braggins <[email protected]> wrote:

> In article <[email protected]>, Don Whybrow wrote:
> > And who needs a
> >parking space? You turn up, stop at the roadside
>
> Depends on the school. While it might be legal even on double yellow
> lines, there are places where parents doing that cause significant
> obstructions.

Most of the schools I know of have zigzag lines outside. Sadly, they are
ignored by so many drivers that they may as well not be there.

Cheers,
Luke


--
Red Rose Ramblings, the diary of an Essex boy in
exile in Lancashire <http://www.shrimper.org.uk>