Yes, Occifer!

Matt B said:

As you would 'rather the situation to stay as it' please explain your
rationale for supporting the requirement for milk floats, generally
plastered with the owners name and contact details, to carry number
plates, whilst other, quicker, more dangerous vehicles, potentially
under the anonymous control of those with no respect for others, do not
have to carry them.

Milk floats come in two varieties, 1) cut down vans of random origin
(usually Transits or LDV types) and 2) proper electric ones.

1 are still basically vans and capable of 70+mph, so require licences
like any other motor vehicle.

2 may not go so fast, but the batteries weigh a *lot*, so they have a
large amount of momentum, giving them the potential to do serious
damage to property if misused. Hence they must also be licensed.

The government are not about to require licencing for bicycles. They
might (indeed, I hope they will) encourage the police to crack down on
RLJ, anti-social riding, etc. They might alter the penalties for
traffic offences comitted by cyclists to include confisaction of the
rider's bike. But they won't move to licencing bikes simply because
the costs would be horrendous and enforcement a nightmare.

Also, given the moves to introduce ID cards, before long they'll have
compulsory registration of the rider - so why waste money on
registering the bike as well?

Pyromancer said:

Matt B said:

As you would 'rather the situation to stay as it' please explain your
rationale for supporting the requirement for milk floats, generally
plastered with the owners name and contact details, to carry number
plates, whilst other, quicker, more dangerous vehicles, potentially
under the anonymous control of those with no respect for others, do not
have to carry them.

Milk floats come in two varieties, 1) cut down vans of random origin
(usually Transits or LDV types) and 2) proper electric ones.

OCED defines them as the latter only.

Quoted message said:

2 may not go so fast, but the batteries weigh a *lot*, so they have a
large amount of momentum, giving them the potential to do serious
damage to property if misused. Hence they must also be licensed.

You don't explain why you think that a *lot* of weight implies that they
must be licensed. /Even/ if we accept that licensing is necessary, why
do they need number plates? Number plates are only required to identify
fleeing vehicles surely.

Quoted message said:

The government are not about to require licencing for bicycles.

Haven't we assumed that before about other things?

Quoted message said:

They
might (indeed, I hope they will) encourage the police to crack down on
RLJ, anti-social riding, etc.

How can the public report an incident if the culprit has left the scene?

Quoted message said:

They might alter the penalties for
traffic offences comitted by cyclists to include confisaction of the
rider's bike.

Pointless if you don't know who's it was - once it's fled.

Quoted message said:

But they won't move to licencing bikes simply because
the costs would be horrendous and enforcement a nightmare.

$1, and compulsory, in D.C. U.S.A.

Quoted message said:

Also, given the moves to introduce ID cards, before long they'll have
compulsory registration of the rider - so why waste money on
registering the bike as well?

Lol.

--
Matt B

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Matt B
<[email hidden]> gently breathed:

Quoted message said:

Pyromancer said:

Matt B said:

As you would 'rather the situation to stay as it' please explain
your
rationale for supporting the requirement for milk floats, generally
plastered with the owners name and contact details, to carry number
plates, whilst other, quicker, more dangerous vehicles, potentially
under the anonymous control of those with no respect for others, do not
have to carry them.

Milk floats come in two varieties, 1) cut down vans of random origin
(usually Transits or LDV types) and 2) proper electric ones.

Quoted message said:

OCED defines them as the latter only.

Quite possibly - the other things may well officially be "milk vans" or
even completely illegal under the construction and use rules (being vans
with the doors removed and most of the side panelling cut away) - but
they get (or got) used for delivering milk to the doorstep in at least
one place I've lived.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2 may not go so fast, but the batteries weigh a *lot*, so they have a
large amount of momentum, giving them the potential to do serious
damage to property if misused. Hence they must also be licensed.

Quoted message said:

You don't explain why you think that a *lot* of weight implies that
they must be licensed.

Presumably you missed this bit, even though you quoted it above: "they
have a large amount of momentum, giving them the potential to do serious
damage to property if misused". Quite a lot of law is taken up with
preventing, or punishing those who cause, damage to property.

Quoted message said:

/Even/ if we accept that licensing is necessary, why do they need
number plates? Number plates are only required to identify fleeing
vehicles surely.

It makes a convenient single reference to anyone from the public to the
police to refer to any given vehicle.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The government are not about to require licencing for bicycles.

Quoted message said:

Haven't we assumed that before about other things?

The only wrong assumption recently was the one that constant ringing of
bells would be needed. Which turned out to me incorrect.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They
might (indeed, I hope they will) encourage the police to crack down on
RLJ, anti-social riding, etc.

Quoted message said:

How can the public report an incident if the culprit has left the scene?

By catching the culprit red-handed in "sting" operations using a single
police officer backed up by community support officers. "Staking out"
any given set of lights for half an hour, then shifting to another, etc.
As the police presence would be visible during the arrest / caution
phase of anyone they caught, this would also serve to satisfy the public
demand for "visible policing", so two wins for the price of one for the
authorities.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They might alter the penalties for
traffic offences comitted by cyclists to include confisaction of the
rider's bike.

Quoted message said:

Pointless if you don't know who's it was - once it's fled.

On the spot, instant penalty.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But they won't move to licencing bikes simply because
the costs would be horrendous and enforcement a nightmare.

Quoted message said:

$1, and compulsory, in D.C. U.S.A.

That just means they subsidise the administration of it from other state
taxation. The horrendous cost would be to the government in
administering and enforcing the scheme, not the license holder, and
would come out of general taxation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, given the moves to introduce ID cards, before long they'll have
compulsory registration of the rider - so why waste money on
registering the bike as well?

Quoted message said:

Lol.

You may laugh now, just wait and see what happens if Mr Brown and co
manage to hang on to power past the next election.

--
- DJ Pyromancer, The Sunday Goth Social, Leeds. <http://www.sheepish.net>

Broadband, Dialup, Domains = <http://www.wytches.net> = The UK's Pagan ISP!
<http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk> <http://www.revival.stormshadow.com>

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Matt B
<[email hidden]> gently breathed:

Quoted message said:

Looking at a webpage of images of them[1], they all seem to have one.
So presumably they do, or at least did, require them.

Any chance of actually posting the footnote? Melikes steam engines! :-)

--
- DJ Pyromancer, The Sunday Goth Social, Leeds. <http://www.sheepish.net>

Broadband, Dialup, Domains = <http://www.wytches.net> = The UK's Pagan ISP!
<http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk> <http://www.revival.stormshadow.com>

Pyromancer said:

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Matt B
<[email hidden]> gently breathed:

Quoted message said:

Pyromancer said:

Matt B wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

2 may not go so fast, but the batteries weigh a *lot*, so they have a
large amount of momentum, giving them the potential to do serious
damage to property if misused. Hence they must also be licensed.

Quoted message said:

You don't explain why you think that a *lot* of weight implies that
they must be licensed.

Presumably you missed this bit, even though you quoted it above: "they
have a large amount of momentum, giving them the potential to do serious
damage to property if misused". Quite a lot of law is taken up with
preventing, or punishing those who cause, damage to property.

Momentum /also/ requires velocity. /Low/ velocity gives /low/ momentum.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

/Even/ if we accept that licensing is necessary, why do they need
number plates? Number plates are only required to identify fleeing
vehicles surely.

It makes a convenient single reference to anyone from the public to the
police to refer to any given vehicle.

Rather than the company name, address, or phone number off the side, or
driver description.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The government are not about to require licencing for bicycles.

Quoted message said:

Haven't we assumed that before about other things?

The only wrong assumption recently was the one that constant ringing of
bells would be needed. Which turned out to me incorrect.

OK :-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They
might (indeed, I hope they will) encourage the police to crack down on
RLJ, anti-social riding, etc.

Quoted message said:

How can the public report an incident if the culprit has left the scene?

By catching the culprit red-handed in "sting" operations using a single
police officer backed up by community support officers. "Staking out"
any given set of lights for half an hour, then shifting to another, etc.
As the police presence would be visible during the arrest / caution
phase of anyone they caught, this would also serve to satisfy the public
demand for "visible policing", so two wins for the price of one for the
authorities.

ah, OK. They don't need a "convenient single reference" then. How
convenient t oyour argument ;-)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

They might alter the penalties for
traffic offences comitted by cyclists to include confisaction of the
rider's bike.

Quoted message said:

Pointless if you don't know who's it was - once it's fled.

On the spot, instant penalty.

Not if they're gone. OTOH that /could/ work for milk floats. Oh, I
forgot, it couldn't, because they are driven by /motorists/ <spit/> :-(

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But they won't move to licencing bikes simply because
the costs would be horrendous and enforcement a nightmare.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

$1, and compulsory, in D.C. U.S.A.

That just means they subsidise the administration of it from other state
taxation. The horrendous cost would be to the government in
administering and enforcing the scheme, not the license holder, and
would come out of general taxation.

Can you quantify it - or are you guessing.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Also, given the moves to introduce ID cards, before long they'll have
compulsory registration of the rider - so why waste money on
registering the bike as well?

Quoted message said:

Lol.

You may laugh now, just wait and see what happens if Mr Brown and co
manage to hang on to power past the next election.

What they want, and what they have the ability to achieve are not
necessarily the same thing. Do foresee see the day when id cards
replace car number plates?

--
Matt B

Pyromancer said:

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Matt B
<[email hidden]> gently breathed:

Quoted message said:

Looking at a webpage of images of them[1], they all seem to have one.
So presumably they do, or at least did, require them.

Any chance of actually posting the footnote? Melikes steam engines! :-)

Oops! [1] http://www.webtech.co.uk/traction/images2.htm :-)

--
Matt B

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Matt B
<[email hidden]> gently breathed:

Quoted message said:

Pyromancer wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Presumably you missed this bit, even though you quoted it above:
"they
have a large amount of momentum, giving them the potential to do serious
damage to property if misused". Quite a lot of law is taken up with
preventing, or punishing those who cause, damage to property.

Quoted message said:

Momentum /also/ requires velocity. /Low/ velocity gives /low/ momentum.

Incorrect. Momentum is mass times speed. Milk floats have huge heavy
batteries. Even at low speed, the potential for damage is large.

However, the actual distinction the law appears to make is whether the
vehicle is mechanically propelled or not. Human or animal powered
doesn't need registration, engine or motor powered does.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It makes a convenient single reference to anyone from the public to
the
police to refer to any given vehicle.

Quoted message said:

Rather than the company name, address, or phone number off the side, or
driver description.

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but that question
really does make me think you are a troll after all. In the infamous
words "you can not be serious!".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

By catching the culprit red-handed in "sting" operations using a
single
police officer backed up by community support officers. "Staking out"
any given set of lights for half an hour, then shifting to another, etc.
As the police presence would be visible during the arrest / caution
phase of anyone they caught, this would also serve to satisfy the public
demand for "visible policing", so two wins for the price of one for the
authorities.

ah, OK. They don't need a "convenient single reference" then. How
convenient t oyour argument ;-)

Whether convenient or not is irrelevant, what I've described is how the
authorities tackle the issue.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On the spot, instant penalty.

Quoted message said:

Not if they're gone.

Stopping a bike is easy. They just have a police cyclist, or
motorcyclist, standing by. Stopping a motor vehicle is rather
different, hence identification marks.

Quoted message said:

OTOH that /could/ work for milk floats. Oh, I forgot, it couldn't,
because they are driven by /motorists/ <spit/> :-(

Milk floats = motors = registration. It's not that hard to understand.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That just means they subsidise the administration of it from other
state
taxation. The horrendous cost would be to the government in
administering and enforcing the scheme, not the license holder, and
would come out of general taxation.

Quoted message said:

Can you quantify it - or are you guessing.

No, but it isn't in any way feasible that the tax raised on a $1 per
bike registration scheme would cover its own administration. Anyone who
knows anything about office admin could tell you that.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Also, given the moves to introduce ID cards, before long they'll have
> compulsory registration of the rider - so why waste money on
> registering the bike as well?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Lol.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You may laugh now, just wait and see what happens if Mr Brown and co
manage to hang on to power past the next election.

Quoted message said:

What they want, and what they have the ability to achieve are not
necessarily the same thing. Do foresee see the day when id cards
replace car number plates?

No, because while the police will have remote RFID card readers, the
public won't, so they'll still need the plate to be able to report
law-breaking.

--
- DJ Pyromancer, The Sunday Goth Social, Leeds. <http://www.sheepish.net>

Broadband, Dialup, Domains = <http://www.wytches.net> = The UK's Pagan ISP!
<http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk> <http://www.revival.stormshadow.com>

Pyromancer wrote in news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt, but that question
really does make me think you are a troll after all. In the infamous
words "you can not be serious!".

????

You did realise who you were talking to, didn't you? All you'll ever get
is a series of questions that, whilst often making you think about the
subject, have required little -if any- thought from the poster.