Yes, Occifer!

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as David
Martin <[email hidden]> gently breathed:

Quoted message said:

Nope. Every motor vehicle using the road has to have one. Sounds equal
and fair. No person using the road needs to have a visible form of
identification. That is fair. Only inanimate objects have to have one.

Technically speaking, a bicycle is an inanimate object too.

But I believe the current system evolved over time based on the impact
on society in general of mechanically propelled vehicles. Do steam
traction engines and the like require plates? If not presumably speed
is part of the criterion, though a ten ton traction engine at 5mph has
the potential to do a fair bit of damage to property.

While it's quite true that "the bad guys" can ride bikes and not be
traced as easily as car drivers, they also can't go anything like as far
or as fast as a car driver - if they could we'd all be being terrorised
by gangs of bike-riding armed thugs, which we're not.

Like most official things, number plates are partly about official
convenience, partly about regulation, and partly about social impact.
Motor vehicles have a far greater impact on society in general than
anything powered by animals or people. Hence number plates, licences,
and nowadays automated plate recognition systems.

--
- DJ Pyromancer, The Sunday Goth Social, Leeds. <http://www.sheepish.net>

Broadband, Dialup, Domains = <http://www.wytches.net> = The UK's Pagan ISP!
<http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk> <http://www.revival.stormshadow.com>

Pyromancer said:

Technically speaking, a bicycle is an inanimate object too.

Ssshhhh! My bike is in the room with me.

Pyromancer said:

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as David
Martin <[email hidden]> gently breathed:

Quoted message said:

Nope. Every motor vehicle using the road has to have one. Sounds equal
and fair. No person using the road needs to have a visible form of
identification. That is fair. Only inanimate objects have to have one.

Technically speaking, a bicycle is an inanimate object too.

But I believe the current system evolved over time based on the impact
on society in general of mechanically propelled vehicles.

Quoted message said:

Do steam
traction engines and the like require plates?

Looking at a webpage of images of them[1], they all seem to have one.
So presumably they do, or at least did, require them.

Quoted message said:

If not presumably speed
is part of the criterion, though a ten ton traction engine at 5mph has
the potential to do a fair bit of damage to property.

So, seeing that they do, speed isn't important. True they could do a
lot of damage, but they are not exactly going to flee, without being
spotted, or without someone walking along and catching up with them, are
they.

Quoted message said:

While it's quite true that "the bad guys" can ride bikes and not be
traced as easily as car drivers, they also can't go anything like as far
or as fast as a car driver

Doesn't matter. They only have to pick on a pedestrian, or a less able
cyclist, and they'll outpace them.

Quoted message said:

- if they could we'd all be being terrorised
by gangs of bike-riding armed thugs, which we're not.

Not sure about the 'armed' bit, but the rest is already happening by all
accounts.

Quoted message said:

Like most official things, number plates are partly about official
convenience, partly about regulation, and partly about social impact.

That may be how they were brought in originally. But with the
ubiquitous 'function creep' that our politicians so rely upon to bypass
the democratic process...

Quoted message said:

Motor vehicles have a far greater impact on society in general than
anything powered by animals or people. Hence number plates, licences,
and nowadays automated plate recognition systems.

Criminals will be criminals whatever we do. Why tar all motorists with
the same brush?

--
Matt B

Tim Hall said:

On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 10:23:27 +0100, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

David Martin wrote on 03/10/2006 09:11 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Tony Raven wrote:
> David Martin wrote on 02/10/2006 23:50 +0100:
>> Matt B wrote:
>>> Don Whybrow wrote:
>>>> Matt B wrote:
> David, you've taken up your Troll wrestling again. Remember the first
> rule of troll wrestling - you get dirty while the troll enjoys it

Did you read the sig?

Well I'm sure "c4 g'2 r4 c4 g'2 r4 c4 g' g'8. g'16 c'4 e' g' g'8. g'16"
means something to somebody but I'm not into decoding obscure sigs. YMMV

Cracked it. (I think). It's a musical notation of some sort. R4 had
me baffled for a while, but that could be rest for 4 beats. Is it
"Three Billy Goats Gruff"?

On the right lines, but wrong tune.,.

Last post..

...d

Al C-F said:

Matt B said:

Al C-F said:

Matt B wrote:

>
>
> You don't believe in equality for all then, I take it.

Please explain 'equality for some'. Or, perhaps there is tautology in
evidence.

It means inequality for some, or perhaps that some are less equal than
others.

Your response lacks the elegance of Orwell, though this is no surprise.

As individuals, we are equal, (given certain constraints regarding age
and the demonstration of competence) and are all permitted to ride a
bicycle without plates or drive a car with.

No, we have a right to walk and/or ride a bicycle.

Driving a motorcar is by permission.

Here, kindly supplied by "Roger" ([email hidden]) is a
definition from the Concise Oxford dictionary, which makes the point
perfectly clear:

"licence - a permit from an authority to own or use something (esp. a
dog, gun, television set, or vehicle), do something (esp. marry, print
something, preach, or drive on a public road), or carry on a trade
(esp. in alcoholic liquor)"

Wheelist wrote on 03/10/2006 10:43 +0100:

Quoted message said:

Aye, but it seems a shame (not to mention a complete waste of resources)
that they couldn't identify the policeman driving.

Couldn't they just ask around? Something like "Who was driving?"

I think they did all that but couldn't identify who it was. The Chief
Constable therefore duly appeared in Court and pleaded guilty. I
suspect he has not allowed it to happen since from the press conference
he gave afterwards.

I gather this is unique to Hampshire and that other forces have dropped
any prosecution of police vehicles even when the camera evidence clearly
showed the face of the "driver they were unable to identify"

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

"Matt B" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
SNIP

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do steam
traction engines and the like require plates?

Looking at a webpage of images of them[1], they all seem to have one.
So presumably they do, or at least did, require them.

I think that it depends on a few things.

Like tractors if they are being driven a short distance from field to field
on a road then as far as I can recall they don't need taxing, registering
and can run red diesel.

If on the other hand they are travelling some distance on the road they do
need registering, pay tax and can't use red diesel.

With a steam propelled farm vehicle the same rules apply.

DaveB

Quoted message said:

Al C-F said:

As individuals, we are equal, (given certain constraints regarding age
and the demonstration of competence) and are all permitted to ride a
bicycle without plates or drive a car with.

No, we have a right to walk and/or ride a bicycle.

Only where you have permission. You have no right to cycle on the
highway designated as pavement, for example, unless 'permission' is
explicitly given.

Quoted message said:

Driving a motorcar is by permission.

Only on the public highway, as for bicycles. Once you have that
'permission' though, you have the absolute right (as in legal authority)
to drive anywhere that the road traffic laws allow.

--
Matt B

In article said:

Like tractors if they are being driven a short distance from field to field
on a road then as far as I can recall they don't need taxing, registering
and can run red diesel.

If on the other hand they are travelling some distance on the road they do
need registering, pay tax and can't use red diesel.

IIRC it's not actually question of distance as such, but whether the road is
bordered by the same farm all the way.

Quoted message said:

With a steam propelled farm vehicle the same rules apply.

While in theory you could fuel a steam engine with diesel fuel, I suspect
that that bit doesn't actually apply in practice (and that you don't have
pay extra tax on coal when used in a road vehicle).

(And I doubt there are any steam farm vehicles kept for use on a single
farm, but there might be some which only travel to shows and exhibitions
on trailers so don't need registration.)

Matt B said:

Quoted message said:

Al C-F said:

As individuals, we are equal, (given certain constraints regarding age
and the demonstration of competence) and are all permitted to ride a
bicycle without plates or drive a car with.

No, we have a right to walk and/or ride a bicycle.

Only where you have permission. You have no right to cycle on the
highway designated as pavement, for example, unless 'permission' is
explicitly given.

You have a right to ride on all public highways except where that right
has been restricted. Pavements etc. are a restriction of use. You do
not need explicit permission to ride a bike on the highway.

...d

David Martin said:

Matt B said:

Quoted message said:

On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 07:56:33 +0100, Al C-F
<[email hidden]> wrote:
> As individuals, we are equal, (given certain constraints regarding age
> and the demonstration of competence) and are all permitted to ride a
> bicycle without plates or drive a car with.
No, we have a right to walk and/or ride a bicycle.

Only where you have permission. You have no right to cycle on the
highway designated as pavement, for example, unless 'permission' is
explicitly given.

You have a right to ride on all public highways except where that right
has been restricted. Pavements etc. are a restriction of use.

Yes, you need permission to ride on them.

Quoted message said:

You do
not need explicit permission to ride a bike on the highway.

You do if it is that part of any highway designated as 'pavement'.

--
Matt B

Matt B said:

David Martin said:

Matt B said:

[email hidden] wrote:
> On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 07:56:33 +0100, Al C-F
> <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> As individuals, we are equal, (given certain constraints regarding age
>> and the demonstration of competence) and are all permitted to ride a
>> bicycle without plates or drive a car with.
> No, we have a right to walk and/or ride a bicycle.
Only where you have permission. You have no right to cycle on the
highway designated as pavement, for example, unless 'permission' is
explicitly given.

You have a right to ride on all public highways except where that right
has been restricted. Pavements etc. are a restriction of use.

Yes, you need permission to ride on them.

Quoted message said:

You do
not need explicit permission to ride a bike on the highway.

You do if it is that part of any highway designated as 'pavement'.

Or, to be more legalistically correct 'footway or footpath'.

--
Matt B

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 12:48:13 +0100, Tony Raven <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

As I did my usual scoot into Waterloo station this morning I was spotted
by two community support officers. I quickly converted to walking and
tried to bluff it but they had me fixed and were making a rapid approach.

"Excuse me sir," they started, "would you like your bike marked with an
invisible security marker?" With that they scribbled my post code on
the top tube, checked it was correct with a UV LED light and handed me a
blue cycle security leaflet from British Transport Police. I have it on
good authority that Porcine Aviations inaugural flight successfully took
off from Heathrow at around the same time.

In June on my return from France via European Bike Express, I cycled
from South Mimms to Waterloo. Just missed a train to Ascot, so parked
the recumbent, still fully loaded with baggage, outside the bar and
went in for a well earned pint. Three people in the queue at the bar.
One 50-ish man in a city suit, one middle aged lady in a frock and
carrying a large shopping bag, and me, resplendent in full lycra gear
and more than a little sweaty. Community support officer comes in
almost immediately behind me and says to the barman "Who's is the
bike?". Trained in observation they are I'm sure.

Pete

in message <[email hidden]>, Dave

(') said:

"Matt B" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
SNIP

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do steam
traction engines and the like require plates?

Looking at a webpage of images of them[1], they all seem to have one.
So presumably they do, or at least did, require them.

I think that it depends on a few things.

Like tractors if they are being driven a short distance from field to
field on a road then as far as I can recall they don't need taxing,
registering and can run red diesel.

You can run on red diesel on the public road provided it is within the
boundaries of your own farm. Otherwise you can't. Of course, as all
farmers know, the law doesn't apply to farmers, but if it did that's what
it is. You must have registration plates and pay VED on any tractor used
on a public road, even if only within the boundaries of your own farm.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; MS Windows: A thirty-two bit extension ... to a sixteen bit
;; patch to an eight bit operating system originally coded for a
;; four bit microprocessor and sold by a two-bit company that
;; can't stand one bit of competition -- anonymous

Tim Hall <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well I'm sure "c4 g'2 r4 c4 g'2 r4 c4 g' g'8. g'16 c'4 e' g' g'8. g'16"
means something to somebody but I'm not into decoding obscure sigs. YMMV

Quoted message said:

Cracked it. (I think). It's a musical notation of some sort. R4 had
me baffled for a while, but that could be rest for 4 beats. Is it
"Three Billy Goats Gruff"?

It would work on an old Nokia phone, which I don't have...

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

Helen Deborah Vecht said:

Tim Hall <[email hidden]>typed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Well I'm sure "c4 g'2 r4 c4 g'2 r4 c4 g' g'8. g'16 c'4 e' g' g'8. g'16"
means something to somebody but I'm not into decoding obscure sigs. YMMV

Quoted message said:

Cracked it. (I think). It's a musical notation of some sort. R4 had
me baffled for a while, but that could be rest for 4 beats. Is it
"Three Billy Goats Gruff"?

It would work on an old Nokia phone, which I don't have...

See also "piling swivel"

Tim

Alan Braggins said:

In article said:

Like tractors if they are being driven a short distance from field to field
on a road then as far as I can recall they don't need taxing, registering
and can run red diesel.

If on the other hand they are travelling some distance on the road they do
need registering, pay tax and can't use red diesel.

IIRC it's not actually question of distance as such, but whether the road is
bordered by the same farm all the way.

Many, many years ago, when I worked at the West Suffolk licencing place,
it was definitely based on distance. For the exemption you had to
specify the exact journey and how often it was done. I can't remember
what the distances were, but I do remember that it had to be spread over
the year, you couldn't save it all up for one longer trip once a year.

It only gave tax exemption. The vehicle still had to be registered (so
all the details of the declared journey could be filed under the
registration mark).

The journey distance rule applied to any vehicle - there was one on file
for a fork-lift truck used between two parts of a factory on opposite
sides of a road.

Of course, it's probably all different nowadays.

The red diesel thing is agricultural only. I just happen to have read
something about that. You can use it even in a tractor that's taxed for
longer road journeys provided that they are purely for agricultural
purposes. So driving to a field to plough it is OK, but if you drive to
a ploughing match with the merest trace of red diesel in the tank,
that's illegal.

--
Andrew

Matt B said:

Don Whybrow said:

Matt B said:

Don Whybrow wrote:

You'd rather all other road users had to have them too, than
motorists were allowed to go without?

Simple, motorised vehicles have plates, everyone else not.

So you've no answer to the original question then.

I thought that I had answered it, but for your benefit I shall try
again. I would rather the situation to stay as it is. As a pedestrian,
motorist and cyclist, I am satisfied that it is a fair system.

--
Don Whybrow

Sequi Bonum Non Time

Discordianism: Where reality is a figment of your imagination

Don Whybrow wrote on 04/10/2006 22:44 +0100:

Quoted message said:

I thought that I had answered it,

Don, you are arguing with a well known troll.

--
Tony

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using
his intelligence; he is just using his memory."
- Leonardo da Vinci

Don Whybrow said:

Matt B said:

Don Whybrow said:

Matt B wrote:
> Don Whybrow wrote:
>
> You'd rather all other road users had to have them too, than
> motorists were allowed to go without?

Simple, motorised vehicles have plates, everyone else not.

So you've no answer to the original question then.

I thought that I had answered it, but for your benefit I shall try
again.

All I see from your previous input is scorn thrown on my opinions, and a
complacent statement regarding the current out-dated situation.

Quoted message said:

I would rather the situation to stay as it is. As a pedestrian,
motorist and cyclist, I am satisfied that it is a fair system.

Read the press, listen to views in the streets and workplaces, and as
interpreted by our councillors and leaders. You may detect an
increasing sense of disquiet over the privileged position enjoyed, and
often abused, by cyclists. You may disagree with them, they may be
wrong, but we know the power of the press, and public opinion fanned by
them. You only need to look at the volumes of ineffective and
ridiculous policies and laws generated over recent years to appreciate that.

The point I'm attempting to air is that the baying mob are ready to see
repressive regulations, as have been stealthily imposed on motorists
over the decades, applied with equal venom to cyclists. There are two
obvious ways to stem the increasing flow of demands: 1. Wholesale change
of the public perception of cyclists, 2. Promotion and encouragement of
the liberalisation of our streets so that all users can rightly use them
equally, and under the same mandate.

We know from our experience and by viewing social trends over our own
lifetimes that number 1 is /never/ going to happen. People are
increasingly selfish and ignorant of their social responsibilities.
That leaves number 2.

As you would 'rather the situation to stay as it' please explain your
rationale for supporting the requirement for milk floats, generally
plastered with the owners name and contact details, to carry number
plates, whilst other, quicker, more dangerous vehicles, potentially
under the anonymous control of those with no respect for others, do not
have to carry them.

--
Matt B