Why hematocrit drugs?

[Chris]

It seems typical from American media/journalism to do so. Perhaps its Nationalistic pride or just
trying to sell more copies, but I don't think Lance needs to be hyped. He is a super talent among
the super talented and clearly one of the most gifted riders among all cyclists despite his own
claims to the contrary. Its too bad we can't more stories on cyclists besides Lance and drugs...

CH

"Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > I did a recheck at Borders and I'd like to apologize to Andy, as he was not misquoted, but was
> > taken out of context. The article discussed Lance pushing his Hct up near 50 and they quoted
> > Andy as saying, "Above 51 and he'd get busted for doping." They did mention some ludicrous thing
> > about how Lance's VO2 max was 85 versus most elite athletes who are in the 60's!? Yeah, they
> > goofed, but I guess it looks good for Lance.
>
> No apology really necessary, since about all you said was that there were some "interesting
> quotes" from me. But you're right, they definitely wanted to make LANCE look like GOD (which is
> why they juxtaposed that accurate quote of me with their own claims). I did my level best to talk
> sense into them, but was only partially successful.
>
> Andy Coggan

 

[Gwhite]

Andy Coggan wrote:
>
> > "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > > > the issue is whether you can drive hematocrit up that much via
> > > manipulation
> > > > of inspired PO2. Perhaps if you were exposed to the equivalent of
> > > 15,000
> > > > feet for 24 h/d for many months on end...but even then, a good part
> > > of the
> > > > increase in hematocrit would be due to a decline in plasma volume,
> > > not an
> > > > increase in red cell volume.
> > >
> > > I think you must be wrong there Dr. Coggan. There seems to be almost immediate effects from
> > > high altitude on most riders. Once the response starts it takes a couple of weeks to die off
> > > as well.
>
> Indeed, as little as five nights of simulated altitude appears to benefit performance, at least
> based on one recent study out of the AIS. However, this effect isn't mediated by changes in
> hematocrit - so no, I am not wrong.

I don't get it. I thought the hematocrit rating is a concentration. So if the altitude tents
increase overall volume, but the concentration of oxygen carrying hematocrit stays the same, there
is still a net benefit. IOW, just because concentration may not go up doesn't mean there won't be a
nice oxygen carrying benefit, since there are more total cells.

Did you say plasma volume goes down with altitude tents? What is the body's (hematocrit and plasma)
response to altitude tents?

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> > "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > > > the issue is whether you can drive hematocrit up that much via
> > > manipulation
> > > > of inspired PO2. Perhaps if you were exposed to the equivalent
of
> > > 15,000
> > > > feet for 24 h/d for many months on end...but even then, a good
part
> > > of the
> > > > increase in hematocrit would be due to a decline in plasma
volume,
> > > not an
> > > > increase in red cell volume.
> > >
> > > I think you must be wrong there Dr. Coggan. There seems to be
almost
> > > immediate effects from high altitude on most riders. Once the
response
> > > starts it takes a couple of weeks to die off as well.
>
> Indeed, as little as five nights of simulated altitude appears to
benefit
> performance, at least based on one recent study out of the AIS.
However,
> this effect isn't mediated by changes in hematocrit - so no, I am
not wrong.

I think you lost me there. It was my understanding that the effect was from hematocrit. Are you
saying that it is from something else? What would it be? Volume?

I have stayed for a week at high altitude and had a very definite response that plainly lasted for
several weeks afterwards.

I also note that hematocrit is an inaccurate measure of the total red blood cell mass which s really
the important measurement. It isn't all that unusual for untrained individuals with dehydration but
without significant symptoms to measure above 50%. And it isn't unusual for trained athletes with a
vey high RBC volume to show a low hematocrit and still have very good performances.

 

[Shaun Wallace]

"gwhite" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> Andy Coggan wrote:
> >
> > > "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:<[email protected]>...
> > > > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >
> > > > > the issue is whether you can drive hematocrit up that much via
> > > > manipulation
> > > > > of inspired PO2. Perhaps if you were exposed to the equivalent of
> > > > 15,000
> > > > > feet for 24 h/d for many months on end...but even then, a good
part
> > > > of the
> > > > > increase in hematocrit would be due to a decline in plasma volume,
> > > > not an
> > > > > increase in red cell volume.
> > > >
> > > > I think you must be wrong there Dr. Coggan. There seems to be almost immediate effects from
> > > > high altitude on most riders. Once the
response
> > > > starts it takes a couple of weeks to die off as well.
> >
> > Indeed, as little as five nights of simulated altitude appears to
benefit
> > performance, at least based on one recent study out of the AIS. However, this effect isn't
> > mediated by changes in hematocrit - so no, I am not
wrong.
>
>
> I don't get it. I thought the hematocrit rating is a concentration. So
if
> the altitude tents increase overall volume, but the concentration of
oxygen
> carrying hematocrit stays the same, there is still a net benefit. IOW, just because concentration
> may not go up doesn't mean there won't be a nice oxygen carrying benefit, since there are more
> total cells.
>
> Did you say plasma volume goes down with altitude tents? What is the body's (hematocrit and
> plasma) response to altitude tents?

When one goes to altitude (mountain or a tent) the body determines it is in a hypoxic state and
starts the process of adjusting a number of parameters, including increasing hematocrit towards the
higher level that it determines is appropriate for the altitude. Red blood cell count takes time to
increase, but a quick increase in hematocrit can be achieved by initially reducing the plasma
volume. This doesn't give the performance gains that a genuine increase in red blood cells does (if
it did, blood doping would only require some plasma to be extracted rather than wait the 6 weeks
after the blood is removed before reinfusing the rbc). After some weeks the number of red blood
cells will genuinely increase and the lost plasma will be replaced to keep the Hct in the desired
range. The slight difference with the tents is that the plasma volume is constantly changing to keep
the hct in the desired range for the current altitude (eg 9000' at night, 0' at day). It can change
quite quickly. If i set my tent at 9000' I'll generally not have to get up after the first few
nights, but if i set it at 12,000' I'll be making at least one trip to the bathroom it seems. I
don't know, but I'm guessing that this fluid is to do with what the body has removed from the blood
to get the HCT to a level it feels is appropriate for 12,000'. In the morning, upon return to
sea-level, the plasma volume can quickly be returned to the higher level so that the Hct is correct
for 0' (but the EPO release has been made in the night, so the RBC's are on their way!)

I think this partially explains why, right from the start, we noticed a lack of correlation between
Hct increase from tent use, and performance gains. Many times athletes saw a performance gain but
their Hct stayed the same (most athletes do get an increase in Hct, but not all) To my knowledge, no
one has tried measuring hct at different times during the day to look for this effect, and i suspect
that the blood tests are often done enough hours after the tent use that the plasma volume has
increased to "dilute" the blood. Also, we have had at least one Olympic athlete for whom, the first
year they used the Hypoxic Tent System, the lack of change of Hct was hailed as a huge
success........ as in every previous season their blood markers dropped off considerably during the
season (due to the effort of their exercise killing off the RBC prematurely as we now know happens).
So I encourage tent users to look for genuine performance improvements, rather than for blood
parameters. Gains also come from a number of other adaptations due to the hypoxia.

Shaun Wallace

 

[Kurgan Gringion]

"Shaun Wallace" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:MZu9b.5299$v%5.3035@fed1read02...
>
>
> When one goes to altitude (mountain or a tent) the body determines it is in a hypoxic state and
> starts the process of adjusting a number of parameters, including increasing hematocrit towards
> the higher level that it determines is appropriate for the altitude.

Have you ever used an altitude tent before? From your posting here, it doesn't seem like you have.

John Hansen

 

[Mark S.]

"Shaun Wallace" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<MZu9b.5299$v%5.3035@fed1read02>...
> "gwhite" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:[email protected]...
> > Andy Coggan wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > > > > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> > > > > > the issue is whether you can drive hematocrit up that much via
> manipulation
> > > > > > of inspired PO2. Perhaps if you were exposed to the equivalent of
> 15,000
> > > > > > feet for 24 h/d for many months on end...but even then, a good
> part of the
> > > > > > increase in hematocrit would be due to a decline in plasma volume,
> not an
> > > > > > increase in red cell volume.
> > > > >
> > > > > I think you must be wrong there Dr. Coggan. There seems to be almost immediate effects
> > > > > from high altitude on most riders. Once the
> response
> > > > > starts it takes a couple of weeks to die off as well.
> > >
> > > Indeed, as little as five nights of simulated altitude appears to
> benefit
> > > performance, at least based on one recent study out of the AIS. However, this effect isn't
> > > mediated by changes in hematocrit - so no, I am not
> wrong.
> >
> >
> > I don't get it. I thought the hematocrit rating is a concentration. So
> if
> > the altitude tents increase overall volume, but the concentration of
> oxygen
> > carrying hematocrit stays the same, there is still a net benefit. IOW, just because
> > concentration may not go up doesn't mean there won't be a nice oxygen carrying benefit, since
> > there are more total cells.
> >
> > Did you say plasma volume goes down with altitude tents? What is the body's (hematocrit and
> > plasma) response to altitude tents?
>
>
> When one goes to altitude (mountain or a tent) the body determines it is in a hypoxic state and
> starts the process of adjusting a number of parameters, including increasing hematocrit towards
> the higher level that it determines is appropriate for the altitude. Red blood cell count takes
> time to increase, but a quick increase in hematocrit can be achieved by initially reducing the
> plasma volume. This doesn't give the performance gains that a genuine increase in red blood cells
> does (if it did, blood doping would only require some plasma to be extracted rather than wait the
> 6 weeks after the blood is removed before reinfusing the rbc). After some weeks the number of red
> blood cells will genuinely increase and the lost plasma will be replaced to keep the Hct in the
> desired range. The slight difference with the tents is that the plasma volume is constantly
> changing to keep the hct in the desired range for the current altitude (eg 9000' at night, 0' at
> day). It can change quite quickly. If i set my tent at 9000' I'll generally not have to get up
> after the first few nights, but if i set it at 12,000' I'll be making at least one trip to the
> bathroom it seems. I don't know, but I'm guessing that this fluid is to do with what the body has
> removed from the blood to get the HCT to a level it feels is appropriate for 12,000'. In the
> morning, upon return to sea-level, the plasma volume can quickly be returned to the higher level
> so that the Hct is correct for 0' (but the EPO release has been made in the night, so the RBC's
> are on their way!)
>
> I think this partially explains why, right from the start, we noticed a lack of correlation
> between Hct increase from tent use, and performance gains. Many times athletes saw a performance
> gain but their Hct stayed the same (most athletes do get an increase in Hct, but not all) To my
> knowledge, no one has tried measuring hct at different times during the day to look for this
> effect, and i suspect that the blood tests are often done enough hours after the tent use that the
> plasma volume has increased to "dilute" the blood. Also, we have had at least one Olympic athlete
> for whom, the first year they used the Hypoxic Tent System, the lack of change of Hct was hailed
> as a huge success........ as in every previous season their blood markers dropped off considerably
> during the season (due to the effort of their exercise killing off the RBC prematurely as we now
> know happens). So I encourage tent users to look for genuine performance improvements, rather than
> for blood parameters. Gains also come from a number of other adaptations due to the hypoxia.
>
>
> Shaun Wallace

Where does barometric pressure come into play? Hypoxia? Why not breath holding exercises? I thought
the pressure difference at altitude was the main reason for training benefits...Oxygen transport is
more difficult due to membrane diffusion with pressure variants..no? Even at altitude (significant),
oxygen is still 20.9% but fewer O2 molecules...You would have to really high for the O2% to
decline...There is still deadspace with each breath otherwise mouth to mouth CPR would not
work...MChrysler

 

[Chris]

BP comes into play with the offloading & onloading of O2 & CO2 from the blood. When pressure drops
significantly (1 mile and above) you start see a lot less of this transfer occurring during exercise
because transit time in the lungs (blood moving through the lungs) is low, while diffusion time
(transfering gases to and from) is high. IOW: the gases can't link up with the blood fast enough to
be delivered; this is the major reason why your ventilation increases steeply when at altitude. I
should note that there are a host of other factors involved, as well, but this is a major one.

Chris Harnish

> Where does barometric pressure come into play? Hypoxia? Why not breath holding exercises? I
> thought the pressure difference at altitude was the main reason for training benefits...Oxygen
> transport is more difficult due to membrane diffusion with pressure variants..no? Even at altitude
> (significant), oxygen is still 20.9% but fewer O2 molecules...You would have to really high for
> the O2% to decline...There is still deadspace with each breath otherwise mouth to mouth CPR would
> not work...MChrysler