Why hematocrit drugs?

[Darren]

If hematocrit enhancing drugs is all they can get away with these days, and they can only boost that
to a relatively modest 50, it would seem to me that turning your bedroom into an O2 tent would be a
whole lot less bother than vet's, idiotic phone codes, IV's and the like.

Maybe Johann just got nostalgic and decided to try and keep European cycling's long, rich history of
intravenous doping from dying? Surely he can be forgiven for that.

D.

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[Andy Coggan]

"Darren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> If hematocrit enhancing drugs is all they can get away with these days,
and
> they can only boost that to a relatively modest 50, it would seem to me
that
> turning your bedroom into an O2 tent would be a whole lot less bother than vet's, idiotic phone
> codes, IV's and the like.

You're assuming that living/sleeping in an altitude tent is just as effective as injecting yourself
with EPO. The available science says that this assumption is incorrect.

Andy Coggan

 

[lazysegall]

Originally posted by Darren
If hematocrit enhancing drugs is all they can get away with these days, and they can only boost that
to a relatively modest 50, it would seem to me that turning your bedroom into an O2 tent would be a
whole lot less bother than vet's, idiotic phone codes, IV's and the like.

Maybe Johann just got nostalgic and decided to try and keep European cycling's long, rich history of
intravenous doping from dying? Surely he can be forgiven for that.

D.

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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First, how do we know if they are only taking EPO...There may be plenty of substances that have plenty of benifits that we don;t even know of. Saying, "If hematocrit enhancing drugs is all they can get away with these days" is just illogical. We only know about what they can;t get away with. We just don;t know (well some of us may) what other agents are available. Second, why sleep in an altitude tent when you could just take EPO. Sleeping in an altitude tent might also slow your recovery time while EPO or other blood doping methods would not. EPO could also be used whenever and wherever not just when you have a huge tent with you.

 

[Tom Kunich]

Err, if you're limiting your hematocrit to 50% or less than the only difference between an altitude
tent and the EPO needle is the speed of reaching your goal.

"Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "Darren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > If hematocrit enhancing drugs is all they can get away with these
days,
> and
> > they can only boost that to a relatively modest 50, it would seem
to me
> that
> > turning your bedroom into an O2 tent would be a whole lot less
bother than
> > vet's, idiotic phone codes, IV's and the like.
>
> You're assuming that living/sleeping in an altitude tent is just as effective as injecting
> yourself with EPO. The available science says
that
> this assumption is incorrect.
>
> Andy Coggan

 

[Jason Waddell]

>Subject: Why hematocrit drugs? From: "Darren" [email protected] Date: 9/11/03 1:09 PM Central
>Daylight Time Message-id: <[email protected]>
>
>If hematocrit enhancing drugs is all they can get away with these days, and they can only boost
>that to a relatively modest 50, it would seem to me that turning your bedroom into an O2 tent would
>be a whole lot less bother than vet's, idiotic phone codes, IV's and the like.
>

did you ever think of the possibility that these guys don't sleep in their own bed every night? If
you ever raced alot you would know that you spend VERY LITTLE time in your own bed. That is why
these guys take drugs to boost their hematocrit.

Plus the wives would not be to hip to the idea of sleeping at 14,000ft...

thanks, jason

 

[Chris]

Yeah but I read Men's Health and it said that Lance has pushed his Hct to near 50, almost a 10%
increase over previously reported values. That same article had some nteresting quotes from you, as
well. Surely your quotes must carry some weight...

"Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Darren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > If hematocrit enhancing drugs is all they can get away with these days,
> and
> > they can only boost that to a relatively modest 50, it would seem to me
> that
> > turning your bedroom into an O2 tent would be a whole lot less bother than vet's, idiotic phone
> > codes, IV's and the like.
>
> You're assuming that living/sleeping in an altitude tent is just as effective as injecting
> yourself with EPO. The available science says that this assumption is incorrect.
>
> Andy Coggan

 

[Carl Sundquist]

"Jason Waddell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> Plus the wives would not be to hip to the idea of sleeping at 14,000ft...
>

And pass up the chance to join the 2.652 mile high club?

 

[Andy Coggan]

"chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...

> "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > "Darren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:[email protected]...
> > > If hematocrit enhancing drugs is all they can get away with these
days,
> > and
> > > they can only boost that to a relatively modest 50, it would seem to
me
> > that
> > > turning your bedroom into an O2 tent would be a whole lot less bother
than
> > > vet's, idiotic phone codes, IV's and the like.
> >
> > You're assuming that living/sleeping in an altitude tent is just as effective as injecting
> > yourself with EPO. The available science says
that
> > this assumption is incorrect.

> Yeah but I read Men's Health and it said that Lance has pushed his Hct to near 50, almost a 10%
> increase over previously reported values. That same article had some nteresting quotes from you,
> as well. Surely your quotes must carry some weight...

I don't know how many times I talked to the writer and editor at Men's Health trying to help them
with their story, but whatever it was I'm not 100% certain that we ever got everything completely
cleared up. Having not seen the article, I can only hope that I was quoted accurately.

Andy Coggan

 

[Warren]

In article <[email protected]>, chris
<[email protected]> wrote:

> Yeah but I read Men's Health and it said that Lance has pushed his Hct to near 50, almost a 10%
> increase over previously reported values.

Lance has mentioned using an altitude tent.

-WG

 

[Kurgan Gringion]

"Jason Waddell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> >Subject: Why hematocrit drugs? From: "Darren" [email protected] Date: 9/11/03 1:09 PM Central
> >Daylight Time Message-id: <[email protected]>
> >
> >If hematocrit enhancing drugs is all they can get away with these days,
and
> >they can only boost that to a relatively modest 50, it would seem to me
that
> >turning your bedroom into an O2 tent would be a whole lot less bother than vet's, idiotic phone
> >codes, IV's and the like.
> >
>
> did you ever think of the possibility that these guys don't sleep in their
own
> bed every night? If you ever raced alot you would know that you spend VERY LITTLE time in your own
> bed. That is why these guys take drugs to boost
their
> hematocrit.
>
> Plus the wives would not be to hip to the idea of sleeping at 14,000ft...

I know a couple that did that.

She didn't have a problem with it, but she was also cool. I can see other wives not willing to
compromise.

 

[Anonymous]

Jason Waddell wrote: <<snip>>
>> Plus the wives would not be to hip to the idea of sleeping at 14,000ft...

Kurgan Gringioni wrote:
> I know a couple that did that.
>
> She didn't have a problem with it, but she was also cool. I can see other wives not willing to
> compromise.

and less moaning perhaps ?

 

[Andy Coggan]

"warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:110920031834462694%[email protected]...
> In article <[email protected]>, chris
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Yeah but I read Men's Health and it said that Lance has pushed his Hct to near 50, almost a 10%
> > increase over previously reported values.
>
> Lance has mentioned using an altitude tent.

And John Cobb told me that he saw it sitting smack-dab in the middle of the bedroom of his villa in
France (before Armstrong moved to Spain). But again, the issue is whether you can drive hematocrit
up that much via manipulation of inspired PO2. Perhaps if you were exposed to the equivalent of
15,000 feet for 24 h/d for many months on end...but even then, a good part of the increase in
hematocrit would be due to a decline in plasma volume, not an increase in red cell volume.

Andy Coggan

 

[Chris]

I was being very sarcastic...Andy, you should pick up a copy. I don't think they got quite right,
although most of your quotes were not bad, I think they misinterpreted a few bits.

CH

PS- I have to admit, the article would make most American's rethink how talented pro cyclists are,
which can't be all bad.

"Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>
> > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:<[email protected]>...
> > > "Darren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > > news:[email protected]...
> > > > If hematocrit enhancing drugs is all they can get away with these
> days, and
> > > > they can only boost that to a relatively modest 50, it would seem to
> me that
> > > > turning your bedroom into an O2 tent would be a whole lot less bother
> than
> > > > vet's, idiotic phone codes, IV's and the like.
> > >
> > > You're assuming that living/sleeping in an altitude tent is just as effective as injecting
> > > yourself with EPO. The available science says
> that
> > > this assumption is incorrect.
>
> > Yeah but I read Men's Health and it said that Lance has pushed his Hct to near 50, almost a 10%
> > increase over previously reported values. That same article had some nteresting quotes from you,
> > as well. Surely your quotes must carry some weight...
>
> I don't know how many times I talked to the writer and editor at Men's Health trying to help them
> with their story, but whatever it was I'm not 100% certain that we ever got everything completely
> cleared up. Having not seen the article, I can only hope that I was quoted accurately.
>
> Andy Coggan

 

[Andy Coggan]

"chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I was being very sarcastic...Andy, you should pick up a copy. I don't think they got quite right,
> although most of your quotes were not bad, I think they misinterpreted a few bits.
>
> CH
>
> PS- I have to admit, the article would make most American's rethink how talented pro cyclists are,
> which can't be all bad.

To give them credit, they were *really* diligent about trying to get the whole story straight - far
more than the NY Times, for example. ;-) However, they also had a specific angle they wished to
take, which was that LANCE is superhuman, even compared to those he races against. It was hard to
get them to realize that, compared to the average individual, *all* pro cyclists seem superhuman.

Andy Coggan

 

[Bob Schwartz]

Carl Sundquist <[email protected]> wrote:

> "Jason Waddell" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>>
>> Plus the wives would not be to hip to the idea of sleeping at 14,000ft...
>>

> And pass up the chance to join the 2.652 mile high club?

OK Carl, since you had an altitude similator, what's your elevation record?

Bob Schwartz [email protected]

 

[Carl Sundquist]

"Bob Schwartz" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> >>
> >> Plus the wives would not be to hip to the idea of sleeping at 14,000ft...
> >>
>
> > And pass up the chance to join the 2.652 mile high club?
>
> OK Carl, since you had an altitude similator, what's your elevation record?
>

Alas, I have no record, unless you recognize solo versions.

My altitude bed was one of the early models. The ID was about 30", but the height was severely
compromised by having a 4" foam rubber 'mattress' at the bottom. It was only about 18" wide,
following the curve of the chamber (visualize a giant test tube laying on it's side). At the top
were inlet and regulator valves that extended about 2" down from the top side of the chamber. Not
exactly a formula for much movement.

Further, I used the chamber as an excuse to not sleep in the same bed as my (ex) wife.

 

[Tom Kunich]

"Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message news:110920031834462694%[email protected]...
> > In article <[email protected]>,
chris
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
> >
> > > Yeah but I read Men's Health and it said that Lance has pushed
his Hct
> > > to near 50, almost a 10% increase over previously reported
values.
> >
> > Lance has mentioned using an altitude tent.
>
> And John Cobb told me that he saw it sitting smack-dab in the middle
of the
> bedroom of his villa in France (before Armstrong moved to Spain).
But again,
> the issue is whether you can drive hematocrit up that much via
manipulation
> of inspired PO2. Perhaps if you were exposed to the equivalent of
15,000
> feet for 24 h/d for many months on end...but even then, a good part
of the
> increase in hematocrit would be due to a decline in plasma volume,
not an
> increase in red cell volume.

I think you must be wrong there Dr. Coggan. There seems to be almost immediate effects from high
altitude on most riders. Once the response starts it takes a couple of weeks to die off as well.

 

[Chris]

Tom,

I assume you mean a positive effect, but can you quatify this immediate response? To my knowledge,
there is a bevy of evidence showing that performance deteriorates as you push past a mile. While
altitude training can reap benefits, it's effects have often been over-rated.

On another note, I did a recheck at Borders and I'd like to apologize to Andy, as he was not
misquoted, but was taken out of context. The article discussed Lance pushing his Hct up near 50 and
they quoted Andy as saying, "Above 51 and he'd get busted for doping." They did mention some
ludicrous thing about how Lance's VO2 max was 85 versus most elite athletes who are in the 60's!?
Yeah, they goofed, but I guess it looks good for Lance.

CH

"Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
> > "warren" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> > news:110920031834462694%[email protected]...
> > > In article <[email protected]>,
> chris
> > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Yeah but I read Men's Health and it said that Lance has pushed
> his Hct
> > > > to near 50, almost a 10% increase over previously reported
> values.
> > >
> > > Lance has mentioned using an altitude tent.
> >
> > And John Cobb told me that he saw it sitting smack-dab in the middle
> of the
> > bedroom of his villa in France (before Armstrong moved to Spain).
> But again,
> > the issue is whether you can drive hematocrit up that much via
> manipulation
> > of inspired PO2. Perhaps if you were exposed to the equivalent of
> 15,000
> > feet for 24 h/d for many months on end...but even then, a good part
> of the
> > increase in hematocrit would be due to a decline in plasma volume,
> not an
> > increase in red cell volume.
>
> I think you must be wrong there Dr. Coggan. There seems to be almost immediate effects from high
> altitude on most riders. Once the response starts it takes a couple of weeks to die off as well.

 

[Andy Coggan]

"chris" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> I did a recheck at Borders and I'd like to apologize to Andy, as he was not misquoted, but was
> taken out of context. The article discussed Lance pushing his Hct up near 50 and they quoted Andy
> as saying, "Above 51 and he'd get busted for doping." They did mention some ludicrous thing about
> how Lance's VO2 max was 85 versus most elite athletes who are in the 60's!? Yeah, they goofed, but
> I guess it looks good for Lance.

No apology really necessary, since about all you said was that there were some "interesting quotes"
from me. But you're right, they definitely wanted to make LANCE look like GOD (which is why they
juxtaposed that accurate quote of me with their own claims). I did my level best to talk sense into
them, but was only partially successful.

Andy Coggan

 

[Andy Coggan]

> "Tom Kunich" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:<[email protected]>...
> > "Andy Coggan" <[email protected]> wrote in message

> > > the issue is whether you can drive hematocrit up that much via
> > manipulation
> > > of inspired PO2. Perhaps if you were exposed to the equivalent of
> > 15,000
> > > feet for 24 h/d for many months on end...but even then, a good part
> > of the
> > > increase in hematocrit would be due to a decline in plasma volume,
> > not an
> > > increase in red cell volume.
> >
> > I think you must be wrong there Dr. Coggan. There seems to be almost immediate effects from high
> > altitude on most riders. Once the response starts it takes a couple of weeks to die off as well.

Indeed, as little as five nights of simulated altitude appears to benefit performance, at least
based on one recent study out of the AIS. However, this effect isn't mediated by changes in
hematocrit - so no, I am not wrong.

Andy Coggan