Why 15 sec for 5 sec peak power?...

[WarrenG]

Depends what type of sprint. Neuromuscular power with nothing to do with the sprint at the end of a 160mile road race but everything to do with a a match sprinter holding their final kick till the last bend.

Nm power for the last 100-150 meters of most sprints? Other factors are far, far more important for that part of a sprint. Focusing on max 5s w/kg power for that part of a sprint will lose you lots of races these days.

 

[whoawhoa]

Well, first you look at what are the most common scenarios for your sprint in a race and look closely at your physiological state in those scenarios.

Typical scenario is definitely arriving at the 1k to go sign moderately fatigued but less fatigued than most in the race (as long as I'm a cat 3, and assuming I didn't go off on too many suicidal attacks). For now, I think improvements in field sprints will be mostly positioning, followed by actual sprint power and lastly anaerobic power.

You can't try to train for every possible scenario but I think you'll find many similarities among those scenarios that will help you narrow down the abilities you'll need in order to to do well. For example, is a long, gradual uphill before the sprint all that different from the last 5 minutes of a criterium where you are well above your threshold during that last 5 minutes?

I think you're right actually...I just tend to prefer plain vanilla workouts focused on one level...although I have been including sprints later in my rides after harder workouts. I assume, though, that a sprint workout done tired is basically a poor (but specific, so maybe not) anaerobic workout.

That is a funny description of a poor sprinter (not for long?).

Hopefully...I've managed some top ten's in Cat 3 races, which, while far off my tt or tough road race results is a big improvement.

A buddy of mine is a real good pursuiter but can't sprint much above 34mph. I once said to him, "The best thing I can say about your sprint is that you're a really good pursuiter."

That's funny. I have a friend, who while doesn't ride the track, would probably make a darn good pursuiter from what I've seen of his abilities. The other day, he told me "I hate mass field sprints." So, this past weekend at a race he decided to go from a long way out after a great leadout and blew the doors off all the sprinters in his first cat 3 race, winning by 2 seconds. That was in a top gear of 52-14, too.

 

[WarrenG]

I think you're right actually...I just tend to prefer plain vanilla workouts focused on one level...although I have been including sprints later in my rides after harder workouts. I assume, though, that a sprint workout done tired is basically a poor (but specific, so maybe not) anaerobic workout.

Well, you don't want to be so tired the sprints have poor quality. I have power level minimums for various types of sprints and if the numbers aren't there it's just a waste of time. Generally, if the form is breaking down and the power just isn't there you may as well save it for another day when you're more able to do the sprints with some quality. Motivation is a major factor.

Maybe it's easy to fall into the pattern of what feels good, and doing sprints from rest feels much better than some other sprint sessions. For mass-start events though, I think that most sprints should not be done from rest except during the early season and as mentioned below. It's more specific to the needs during a race finish.

My sprints from rest are generally only 10-15" in 53x17 and they are for form/technique, and to keep feeling fresh and loose. Sometimes in 53x16 and 53x15 to get the very high power levels (well, maybe not compared to an untrained Australian woman) to keep some fibers trained for that.

That's funny. I have a friend, who while doesn't ride the track, would probably make a darn good pursuiter from what I've seen of his abilities. The other day, he told me "I hate mass field sprints." So, this past weekend at a race he decided to go from a long way out after a great leadout and blew the doors off all the sprinters in his first cat 3 race, winning by 2 seconds. That was in a top gear of 52-14, too.

Best tactic for him, and it makes for exciting racing. Maybe the next time he won't be allowed his freedom.

 

[Billsworld]

Warren , dont race days with ponts races etc.. give you enough of those types of sprints. I tend to look at those races as training , and save the more specific work for the powermeter and or clock. Then I use the starts in place of gym work and have another overspped day. IOW wouldnt the benifit of the sprints in mass satrt track races (with all the junk in your legs)carry over to sprint racing as long as you trained the other components of the sprint race separately?.

 

[WarrenG]

Warren , dont race days with ponts races etc.. give you enough of those types of sprints. I tend to look at those races as training , and save the more specific work for the powermeter and or clock. Then I use the starts in place of gym work and have another overspped day. IOW wouldnt the benifit of the sprints in mass satrt track races (with all the junk in your legs)carry over to sprint racing as long as you trained the other components of the sprint race separately?.

It depends what event you're training for. If you're preparing for match sprints then you will usually want a better quality sprint than most of those you'll do within a points race. A 1-2k scratch race is relevant for match sprinting. Some races teach you about positioning on the track and that carries over to match sprinting.

Your training will depend on what weakness you're trying to address. If you're a match sprinter trying to lengthen your sprint then I would not suggest long sprints from complete rest because you won't be able to do as much of the needed part of your training as you could by doing the uphill sprint session you know about.

For a person preparing for mass start races points races offer many sprints that are helpful.

Yes, you adjust your training based on racing that you're doing. Race mass-start events at the track and you can probably skip your VO2max training that week.

 

[acoggan]

Why don't you make life simple for everyone, and just link to this thread from over there? To keep the discussion semi-focused (at least initially) and to assure a lot of responses, feel free to make your post somewhat confrontational, i.e., "Coggan says this, but I think he's full of ****...what do y'all think?"

Your fans at FGF are waiting, Warren.

 

[WarrenG]

Your fans at FGF are waiting, Warren.

It's not my style to start a thread with an "AC's full of ****" post.

Entertainment value was the reason I suggested you post at FGF all of the opinions you've put forth about sprinting within this thread. Your arrogance is kind of funny to watch when you stumble around in the arena of sprinting.

It's also disappointing that some people might actually take what you say about sprinting (where it disagrees with relevant, real world experience) to heart and waste their time and energy when it could have been spent more productively. In this area you harm more than help.

 

[acoggan]

Entertainment value was the reason I suggested you post at FGF all of the opinions you've put forth about sprinting within this thread.

I was just hoping that you'd save me some work. Since you won't, though, can I at least get you to point to what you consider to be, say, the five most outrageous (?) posts in this thread? See, I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly what opinions of mine to which you'd like to the reaction of FGF readers...I suppose I could just cross-post a link to this entire thread over there, but I doubt that would get much response, at least not w/o some sort of introduction.

 

[WarrenG]

I was just hoping that you'd save me some work. Since you won't, though, can I at least get you to point to what you consider to be, say, the five most outrageous (?) posts in this thread? See, I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly what opinions of mine to which you'd like to the reaction of FGF readers...I suppose I could just cross-post a link to this entire thread over there, but I doubt that would get much response, at least not w/o some sort of introduction.

I don't want to re-hash again, which is probably what you'd like to do after I list everything out. I don't enjoy the mud like you. I'm here to help if people want it. I don't need to prove anything to anyone.

Essentially, the 5s power is not critical for success in sprints. If you look at good sprinters they're all relatively close in this area and other abilities decide the race outcome. Measuring power and then looking almost only at w/kg is bordering on irrelevant because the fact is that smallish people with 18w/kg for 10s are simply not winning the sprints unless they possess some of the other abilities that are, for the most part, more important for sprint performance. Testing 5s power from rest is fine to measure nmp but the number from such a test is almost completely irrelevant at the end of a mass-start race and most match sprints. Including 5s w/kg in the chart is fine, but omitting the more relevant measurements that could be done, e.g. 15s power, implies that 5sw/kg is more relevant than other measurements people could be doing to assess their power profile or to predict ability in a race.

There's probably more but I just don't care enough to bother. I'm not here to sell something, nor to make myself sound relevant to somebody who might pay me or give me a trip, nor prove myself in some other way. I went from barely District Champion level in sprinting to 2 National Championships in sprint events two years in a row. I have nothing left to prove to anyone outside of myself about my sprinting on the track. I'm just trying to pass along some of what has helped me make that jump and steer people away from some of the distractions I encountered prior to the time when I started getting guidance from Max. I have learned from other friends too.

"Pay it forward."

 

[acoggan]

I don't enjoy the mud like you.

Rrrriiiggghhtttt...that's why you take every opportunity you can to contradict me.

Essentially, the 5s power is not critical for success in sprints.

Damn - you mean that I should have been winning sprints all these years, despite being 75-80% slow twitch and generating a measly 13-14 W/kg?

If you look at good sprinters they're all relatively close in this area

Athletes who are close in performance are always close in ability...so what?

and other abilities decide the race outcome. Measuring power and then looking almost only at w/kg is bordering on irrelevant because the fact is that smallish people with 18w/kg for 10s are simply not winning the sprints

So how does your flying 200 m TT time compare to someone like, oh, Victoria Pendleton? Think you could take her in a sprint?

Testing 5s power from rest is fine to measure nmp but the number from such a test is almost completely irrelevant at the end of a mass-start race and most match sprints.

Sorry, but people/places like the AIS disagree with you.

Including 5s w/kg in the chart is fine, but omitting the more relevant measurements that could be done, e.g. 15s power, implies that 5sw/kg is more relevant than other measurements people could be doing to assess their power profile or to predict ability in a race.

Only if you chose to view the power profiling tables as an attempt to directly predict performance, which I have repeatedly emphasized shouldn't be done.

There's probably more but I just don't care enough to bother.

Worn you out, have I?

I'm not here to sell something, nor to make myself sound relevant to somebody who might pay me or give me a trip

Now who's taking the cheap shots?

 

[fergie]

Nm power for the last 100-150 meters of most sprints? Other factors are far, far more important for that part of a sprint. Focusing on max 5s w/kg power for that part of a sprint will lose you lots of races these days.

Yeah, nothing to do with 160mile road race. Everything to do with a very tight track sprint.

You use the power profile to steer people in the right direction. Then training shifts to focus on power production around their goal event.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach