Why 15 sec for 5 sec peak power?...

[whoawhoa]

Yes, it probably is, since that would also include a measure of a person's ability to generate high pedal force at high cadences (ie, sprint technique). The 5sec test probably isolates a person's neuromuscular power or twitchy-ness more, but who cares about that?

Does anyone remember Andy saying that the Power Profile was intended to be used to identify physiological characteristics and inclinations, rather than as a performance predictor?

Or, "the best indicator of performance is performance itself."

 

[whoawhoa]

Or, "the best indicator of performance is performance itself."

IMHO, the value of the power profiling chart is the "pureness" of the values from a physiological sense. Knowing 15 second power may tell you more about how well you will place in field sprints than 5 second power, but going out and doing a lot of field sprints will tell you more. It tells you zilch, however, about what you need to train: e.g., to improve your 15 second power you may need to work on neuromuscular power, or you may need to work on anaerobic power. Knowing your 1-minute and 5-second powers tell you what your weakness is.

 

[acoggan]

Or, "the best indicator of performance is performance itself."

...unless, of course, you're interested in sustainable power, in which case measuring blood lactate is clearly the best approach.

 

[WarrenG]

IMHO, the value of the power profiling chart is the "pureness" of the values from a physiological sense. .

Like 15s power, the one minute test and some others in the chart are summations of various abilities used within that time period. 5s may be the one factor that is closest to "pure", but that doesn't make it more relevant for performance or assessing one's likely abilities in races.

Knowing 15 second power may tell you more about how well you will place in field sprints than 5 second power, but going out and doing a lot of field sprints will tell you more. It tells you zilch, however, about what you need to train: e.g., to improve your 15 second power you may need to work on neuromuscular power, or you may need to work on anaerobic power. Knowing your 1-minute and 5-second powers tell you what your weakness is.

By the time you have actually done a lot of field sprints like you mention you will know far more about what part of your sprint you need to improve than by looking at 5s and 60s power. Once you have the field sprint experience that you mention I think you'll understand this too. You'll probably also understand why I suggest doing at least some tests not from complete rest.

 

[WarrenG]

Ok, here's a relevant "real world" application: ... why couldn't she sprint against the very best? Simple: her maximal neuromuscular power was only slightly greater than her 15 s power...

Extreme example to support your opinion. Again with the lack of relevance for the real world application.

How about you post your opinions about 5s w/kg over at FixedGearFever's forums and see how they fly among lots of people who have the real world understanding that you don't have?

 

[whoawhoa]

By the time you have actually done a lot of field sprints like you mention you will know far more about what part of your sprint you need to improve than by looking at 5s and 60s power.

Then why is there any need for a test at all?

 

[acoggan]

Like 15s power, the one minute test and some others in the chart are summations of various abilities used within that time period. 5s may be the one factor that is closest to "pure"

Such is the nature of the (human) beast...

By the time you have actually done a lot of field sprints like you mention you will know far more about what part of your sprint you need to improve than by looking at 5s and 60s power.

How many is that? Hundreds? Thousands? And how do you judge changes in the underlying determinants of your performance when conditions are always different? For example, maybe you outjumped your nemesis this time not because the "strength endurance" training you've been doing is helping, but because he was just a little off his game. Heck, even on an indoor track conditions can vary enough (and hand timing is inaccurate enough) that small but potentially critical (to those interested in maximizing their performance, anyway) changes in ability can easily be missed if you're not measuring somebody's actual performance (i.e., power) directly...

 

[doctorSpoc]

Technically, aerodynamic drag is like friction, in that it resists *velocity,* and not *acceleration.* I understand that those terms get kinda mixed together in all of our discussions of power, which includes a velocity component....

???... NO... that's not right... v = m/s and a =m/s^2 = (m/s)/s or v/s i.e. acceleration is a change in velocity per unit time

so if as you say it gets harder to increase the ground you cover per unit time (velocity), the more ground you cover per unit time (the faster you go) then it also gets harder to cover more ground per unit time, per unit time (increase your velocity per unit time = acceleration) and even more so...

 

[doctorSpoc]

...Does anyone remember Andy saying that the Power Profile was intended to be used to identify physiological characteristics and inclinations, rather than as a performance predictor? The crux of the whole discussion seems to be that this screwdriver is ill-suited for pounding nails.

you may have a point here... but because of the "profiling" nature of the chart i think most people looking at the chart assume, rightly or wrongly that individuals with higher numbers over towards the left are likely to be better and better sprinters the higher their numbers are in this area but it would seem that individual need only posses numbers within an exceptable range to be good sprinters... and some (e.g. women) can have great numbers but less sprinting prowess... so it can be misleading... i think it might be deserving of an asterisk (and a small note) at least.

Dr. Coggan... have you taken a range of say the top 5 sprinters at national or the world etc to see what the spread of neurmuscular power is between is between induviduals on the upper echelon?

 

[Billsworld]

Yes, it probably is, since that would also include a measure of a person's ability to generate high pedal force at high cadences (ie, sprint technique). The 5sec test probably isolates a person's neuromuscular power or twitchy-ness more, but who cares about that?

Does anyone remember Andy saying that the Power Profile was intended to be used to identify physiological characteristics and inclinations, rather than as a performance predictor? The crux of the whole discussion seems to be that this screwdriver is ill-suited for pounding nails.

I am ok with the chart. I like the chart. I use the chart. It was AC that got it through my thick head why I couldnt turn a 600 lb squat into an 11.0 200. BTW I think the high end of that chart was AIS sprinters that can generate = watts from a start or a jump. I think AC mentioned this on another thread. Warren has lots of good points and advice on taining. The village idiot comment got me a little miffed , thats all

 

[frenchyge]

The village idiot comment got me a little miffed , thats all

Agree. It was an unnecessary cheap-shot.

 

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by WarrenG
By the time you have actually done a lot of field sprints like you mention you will know far more about what part of your sprint you need to improve than by looking at 5s and 60s power.


QUOTE=whoawhoa]Then why is there any need for a test at all?[/QUOTE]

You will able to test yourself in races to get the most relevant information for yourself. In addition, you can do your own tests in training to give you some idea of how well you're achieving your training objectives.

Once you have had a chance to look at a number of your own race performances you'll (need to) learn more about which (during training) tests are the most useful to you.

For years I did almost all sprints in training from well-rested. I have since learned why that is not the best way to do most sprints in training.

 

[WarrenG]

And how do you judge changes in the underlying determinants of your performance when conditions are always different? For example, maybe you outjumped your nemesis this time not because the "strength endurance" training you've been doing is helping, but because he was just a little off his game. ...

I am not one to draw sweeping conclusions based on one little piece of information, e.g. one race. I also have information about various relevant efforts during training that provide at least some indication of what my ability will be in races.

As for basing an opinion on one small amount of information, that is for you to do, i.e. your wife's lack of 5s and appyling that too broadly, or a handful of sprinter's in Jim studies doing 20w/kg and then applying that to "many" masters sprinters.

As Dr Spoc said earlier, it's fine to come up with opinions based on a small amount of information but when the real world experience is contrary to your opinion you should spend time understanding why that is so rather than insisting the real world is wrong.


I'm looking forward to your posting about 5sw/kg over at FGF.

 

[whoawhoa]

You will able to test yourself in races to get the most relevant information for yourself. In addition, you can do your own tests in training to give you some idea of how well you're achieving your training objectives. .

Exactly. Race to get an idea of how well I can sprint at the end of races, test to see where my physiological strengths/weaknesses are and how they are changing.

For years I did almost all sprints in training from well-rested. I have since learned why that is not the best way to do most sprints in training.

How do you train/test your sprinting in a "race" environment? Just in the past few weeks, I can think of many different specific situations where I was in field sprints

-an uphill, headwind sprint that opened early where I was fresh the entire race with the exception of a massive gap that took me 30 seconds to close after a crash. I got back on the lead group with maybe 60 seconds before the finish.

-a 10 or so man sprint at the end of a long, very gradual climb.

-A very late to start, downhill sprint after a tough 3 hour effort.

and the list goes on, and on.

I can't imagine testing all these situations, and many more. What do you do?

BTW, thanks for some pointers and tactics discussions on field sprints a while ago, as I'm becoming less of a "barrier thrown in the road."

 

[acoggan]

you may have a point here... but because of the "profiling" nature of the chart i think most people looking at the chart assume, rightly or wrongly that individuals with higher numbers over towards the left are likely to be better and better sprinters the higher their numbers are in this area but it would seem that individual need only posses numbers within an exceptable range to be good sprinters... and some (e.g. women) can have great numbers but less sprinting prowess

On what basis do you draw this conclusion - the two national champions whose data I described? If so, you may want to take a look here:

http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/powerprofile-pursuiter_v4.xls

and here:

http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/powerprofile-pursuiter_v4.xls

and then see if you still think the same way.

Dr. Coggan... have you taken a range of say the top 5 sprinters at national or the world etc to see what the spread of neurmuscular power is between is between induviduals on the upper echelon?

Nope. However, I'd be suprised if a man was able to make the top 5 at worlds w/o being able to generate at least 22 W/kg for 5 s.

 

[acoggan]

I'm looking forward to your posting about 5sw/kg over at FGF.

Why don't you make life simple for everyone, and just link to this thread from over there? To keep the discussion semi-focused (at least initially) and to assure a lot of responses, feel free to make your post somewhat confrontational, i.e., "Coggan says this, but I think he's full of ****...what do y'all think?"

 

[acoggan]

it's fine to come up with opinions based on a small amount of information but when the real world experience is contrary to your opinion

What "real world experience" is contrary to my position that 5 s power is an excellent indicator of your maximal neuromuscular power? That is, after all, the only thing that I have ever claimed as fact...it is my opinion (which is supported by "real world experience", e.g., the success of programs such as the AIS and the BCF) that this makes knowing your 5 s power useful for understanding the underpinnings of one's performance, so that you know how to best go about improving it.

 

[WarrenG]

What "real world experience" is contrary to my position that 5 s power is an excellent indicator of your maximal neuromuscular power? That is, after all, the only thing that I have ever claimed as fact...

I don't disagree about using 5s to measure nmp. You have claimed, suggested, opined, etc. far more importance to 5s w/kg than is true in the real world of sprinting. Evidenced by what you've written just today for example, and the fact that you have ommitted the more important/relevant information for the area in your chart about sprinting ability. The "profile" as it relates to ability to sprint is not as accurate as it could be, and as a result, the chart will often lead people to draw inaccurate conclusions about their ability to sprint well at the end of races.

 

[fergie]

I don't disagree about using 5s to measure nmp. You have claimed, suggested, opined, etc. far more importance to 5s w/kg than is true in the real world of sprinting. Evidenced by what you've written just today for example, and the fact that you have ommitted the more important/relevant information for the area in your chart about sprinting ability. The "profile" as it relates to ability to sprint is not as accurate as it could be, and as a result, the chart will often lead people to draw inaccurate conclusions about their ability to sprint well at the end of races.

Depends what type of sprint. Neuromuscular power with nothing to do with the sprint at the end of a 160mile road race but everything to do with a a match sprinter holding their final kick till the last bend.

As a coach I take any new cyclist and determine the 4 levels as Andy suggests. This helps to direct them towards an event they will perform well at. From there my concern is event specific power. For the Match Sprinter I would would look at power from 1sec to 65sec. For a roadie I would look at power from 1 min to 7hrs.

This "real world" stuff is nice. Been doing it for 12 years but having the power data at my finger tips suddenly means I am far more objective when determining strengths and weakness's and making suggestions for training.

Hamish Ferguson
Cycling Coach

 

[WarrenG]

How do you train/test your sprinting in a "race" environment? Just in the past few weeks, I can think of many different specific situations where I was in field sprints

-an uphill, headwind sprint that opened early where I was fresh the entire race with the exception of a massive gap that took me 30 seconds to close after a crash. I got back on the lead group with maybe 60 seconds before the finish.

-a 10 or so man sprint at the end of a long, very gradual climb.

-A very late to start, downhill sprint after a tough 3 hour effort.

and the list goes on, and on.

I can't imagine testing all these situations, and many more. What do you do?

Well, first you look at what are the most common scenarios for your sprint in a race and look closely at your physiological state in those scenarios.

You can't try to train for every possible scenario but I think you'll find many similarities among those scenarios that will help you narrow down the abilities you'll need in order to to do well. For example, is a long, gradual uphill before the sprint all that different from the last 5 minutes of a criterium where you are well above your threshold during that last 5 minutes?

In all of your examples you basically had no peak power fast twitch fibers available, ph was low/lactate high, oxygen debt high, etc., so you can try to mimic this in your training.

You could do 20 second uphill sprints with only 2-3 minutes rest between them. By the time you do the third sprint in the set you'll be dealing with most of these factors. Rest 5-6' and do another set.

Or you could do 4-5' at 110-130% of FTP on a gradual uphill and finish with a 20-30" sprint. Rest just 4' and repeat. By the third sprint you'll feel a lot like you're in the racing scenarios you've described.

Earlier in the year I did some 8-12' tempo intervals that finished with a 15" sprint. By the third one I was feeling a lot like I was racing.

Maybe you'll look at your power levels during these sprints and compare them to what you actually do during races but I think your PE will tell you plenty.

BTW, thanks for some pointers and tactics discussions on field sprints a while ago, as I'm becoming less of a "barrier thrown in the road."

That is a funny description of a poor sprinter (not for long?). A buddy of mine is a real good pursuiter but can't sprint much above 34mph. I once said to him, "The best thing I can say about your sprint is that you're a really good pursuiter."