Road Cycling · Public discussion

Who needs EPO?

Started by Warren · · Last activity · 42 posts · 2,896 views

← Back to Road Cycling

This thread is locked and is currently read-only.

Thread navigation

Jump through the discussion

Go to the original post, the replies on this page, or the latest preserved contribution.

01 / Original postWho needs EPO?Warren · 15 Aug 2003 02 / This pagePosts 1–20Page 1 of 3 · chronological order 03 / Latest replyPost #42Ken Papai · 17 Aug 2003

Thread details

What we know about this thread

Original section
Road Cycling
Published
15 August 2003
Last activity
17 August 2003
Original author
Warren
Posts
42
Discussion status
Public discussion
Total views
2,896
Views / 30 days
0
Topics
Stage racingTrack cyclingVO2 max

The navigation and discussion metadata provide context. Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Showing posts 1–20 of 42
Posts remain in their original chronological order.

Text size
  1. Original post
    Warren
    Archived post
    #1

    Here's an interesting web page about blood doping/boosting.

    gen.umn.eduexample student project
    s/Sum2000/Blood_doping/dopehow.htm

    "Approximately six weeks before competition an athlete withdraws one to four units of his/her blood
    (1 unit = 450 ml of blood). The blood is centrifuged and the athlete then immediately reinfuses the
    plasma components. The remaining red blood cells are placed in cold storage. The six week time frame
    is important since this is how long it takes an individual to restore the lost blood.  Between 1 to
    7 days before the event, the athlete reinfuses the red blood cells placed in storage. When this
    process is performed accurately, an athlete can increase his/her hemoglobin level and red blood cell
    count by up to 20%. This provides the body with an increased oxygen level to greater improve
    athletic performance and increase the body's potential.

    The effects of blood doping are boosted when the athlete trains at a high altitude.  At high
    altitudes, the athlete's body, which is used to an hypoxic state, will compensate by increasing red
    blood cell production.  When the athlete moves down to a low altitude, their body is engulfed with
    oxygen rich red blood cells, helping their performance.  The athlete then further boosts their
    body's oxygen level by infusing the stored red blood cells."

    The site provides an example (doesn't state if high-alttude training was also utilized) and shows
    that Hematocrit increased from 43 to 55, and VO2max increased by 13%.

    The site also says...

    "...blood doping effects are most prominent in the first two weeks.  However, it takes about 16
    weeks for the blood levels to return to normal."

    So an athlete says they're clean and they pass every drug test. How could any test detect this
    method of performance-enhancement?

    How many pros live in a place like Colorado, Reno, Spain, France, or Italy where they can train in
    the mountains and the flats and then sleep at altitude often enough to boost their hematocrit?

    I don't think I'll try this because my hematocrit is already 47.

    -WG

    Report
  2. DiabloScott
    Archived post
    #2
    Quoted post said:

    Originally posted by Warren
    Here's an interesting web page about blood doping/boosting.

    gen.umn.eduexample student project
    s/Sum2000/Blood_doping/dopehow.htm

    "Approximately six weeks before competition an athlete withdraws one to four units of his/her blood
    (1 unit = 450 ml of blood). The blood is centrifuged and the athlete then immediately reinfuses the
    plasma components. The remaining red blood cells are placed in cold storage. The six week time frame
    is important since this is how long it takes an individual to restore the lost blood._ Between 1 to
    7 days before the event, the athlete reinfuses the red blood cells placed in storage. When this
    process is performed accurately, an athlete can increase his/her hemoglobin level and red blood cell
    count by up to 20%. This provides the body with an increased oxygen level to greater improve
    athletic performance and increase the body's potential.

    The effects of blood doping are boosted when the athlete trains at a high altitude._ At high
    altitudes, the athlete's body, which is used to an hypoxic state, will compensate by increasing red
    blood cell production._ When the athlete moves down to a low altitude, their body is engulfed with
    oxygen rich red blood cells, helping their performance._ The athlete then further boosts their
    body's oxygen level by infusing the stored red blood cells."

    The site provides an example (doesn't state if high-alttude training was also utilized) and shows
    that Hematocrit increased from 43 to 55, and VO2max increased by 13%.

    The site also says...

    "...blood doping effects are most prominent in the first two weeks._ However, it takes about 16
    weeks for the blood levels to return to normal."

    So an athlete says they're clean and they pass every drug test. How could any test detect this
    method of performance-enhancement?

    How many pros live in a place like Colorado, Reno, Spain, France, or Italy where they can train in
    the mountains and the flats and then sleep at altitude often enough to boost their hematocrit?

    I don't think I'll try this because my hematocrit is already 47.

    -WG

    This is pretty much what the US Olympians (including Grewal and Twigg) did in LA in 1984. It was undetectable and legal at the time (well, it hadn't been declared illegal anyway). I actually knew the doctor who did the transfusions - his son was a friend of mine, I used to hang out at his house in high school. Anyway, some of the atheletes used other people's blood and got sick. Today they would DQ these folks on high hematocrit levels.

    Report
  3. Warren
    Archived post
    #3
    In article said:

    Today they would DQ these folks on high hematocrit levels.

    They could get benefit and still be below the allowable limit.

    -WG

    Report
  4. Anonymous
    Archived post
    #4

    My hemtocrit is low - it's at the very bottom of the "normal" range - or sometimes a tad lower so it
    looks like I'm anemic. But my doctor assures me that I'm hypervolumic - that is that I've got more
    blood volume than my sedentary peers - and thus it's only "sports anemia."

    I read the among soccer players, the guys with the lowest hematocrits are the ones who move
    around the most.

    So I can't figure how anyone can exceed the normal limits unless they live in Peru or else they
    smoke heavily.

    Report
  5. Dan
    Archived post
    #5

    warren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:
    In article said:

    Today they would DQ these folks on high hematocrit levels.

    They could get benefit and still be below the allowable limit.

    -WG

    Or they could be artificially manipulating thier plasma volume as well as the red cell volume.

    Or if the blood was alliquoted in smaller volumes. They'd be better off taking a little at a time
    over the course of their peak.

    Someone a few months ago posted about how skiiers had "blood mules" accompany them to the olympics.
    Rumsas's mother in law might have been using the drugs after all. I wonder what her blood type is?

    Report
  6. Steve McGinty
    Archived post
    #6

    On 15 Aug 2003 10:44:26 +0950, DiabloScott

    Quoted message said:

    This is pretty much what the US Olympians (including Grewal and Twigg) did in LA in 1984.

    Goes back at least to Lasse Viren the Finnish Olympic 5 and 10,000 mtr champ from the 1972 Games.

    Regards! Stephen

    Report
  7. Tom Schulenburg
    Archived post
    #7

    "Steve McGinty" <stephenmcginty@ntlworld_DOT_.com> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On 15 Aug 2003 10:44:26 +0950, DiabloScott

    Quoted message said:

    This is pretty much what the US Olympians (including Grewal and Twigg) did in LA in 1984.

    Goes back at least to Lasse Viren the Finnish Olympic 5 and 10,000 mtr champ from the 1972 Games.

    And '76 games. Didn't win anything of note outside of that.

    -T

    Report
  8. Tom Kunich
    Archived post
    #8

    "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    In article said:

    Today they would DQ these folks on high hematocrit levels.

    They could get benefit and still be below the allowable limit.

    Err, what is the benefit of having the same level as everyone else?

    Report
  9. Lindsay
    Archived post
    #9
    Steve McGinty stephenmcginty@ntlworld_DOT_.com said:

    On 15 Aug 2003 10:44:26 +0950, DiabloScott

    Quoted message said:

    This is pretty much what the US Olympians (including Grewal and Twigg) did in LA in 1984.

    Goes back at least to Lasse Viren the Finnish Olympic 5 and 10,000 mtr champ from the 1972 Games.

    Every time someone mentions Lasse Viren I think of the old Be Bop Deluxe song, Modern Music.

    "Lasse Viren, 3 Olympic Gold Medals already ..."

    That voice sounds a lot like Phil Liggett.

    Lindsay
    ----------------------------
    "One of the annoying things about believing in free will and individual responsibility is the
    difficulty of finding somebody to blame your problems on. And when you do find somebody, it's
    remarkable how often his picture turns up on your driver's license."

    P.J. O'Rourke

    Report
  10. Mikkel Gybel Je
    Archived post
    #10

    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    So I can't figure how anyone can exceed the normal limits unless they live in Peru or else they
    smoke heavily.

    Because 'sports anemia' is not seen in cyclists - it is seen in runners and other athletes that
    runs. so perhaps you are just at the low end of the scale (like me...)

    - Mikkel
    --
    Mikkel Gybel Jensen home.tiscali.dk~mgj pcarlp.dkpcarlp.dk rumfart.dkrumfart.dk

    Report
  11. Steve McGinty
    Archived post
    #11
    Lindsay said:
    Steve McGinty stephenmcginty@ntlworld_DOT_.com said:

    On 15 Aug 2003 10:44:26 +0950, DiabloScott

    Quoted message said:

    This is pretty much what the US Olympians (including Grewal and Twigg) did in LA in 1984.

    Goes back at least to Lasse Viren the Finnish Olympic 5 and 10,000 mtr champ from the 1972 Games.

    Every time someone mentions Lasse Viren I think of the old Be Bop Deluxe song, Modern Music.

    "Lasse Viren, 3 Olympic Gold Medals already ..."

    Don't remember that one but "Ships in the Night" by BBD was John Peel's record of the year in 1975.

    I saw an old Beavis 'n' Butthead the other night with a track by Sir Mix-a-Lot called "Ride" - the
    vid was set on a floodlight velodrome with lots of lyrca-clad lovelies (and some nice girls, too...)
    - anyone know what track as used?

    Regards! Stephen

    Report
  12. Andy Coggan
    Archived post
    #12

    "Mikkel Gybel Jensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    So I can't figure how anyone can exceed the normal limits unless they live in Peru or else they
    smoke heavily.

    Because 'sports anemia' is not seen in cyclists

    Says who? So-called footstrike hemolysis obviously doesn't occur in (road) cyclists, but there is
    still an increase in plasma volume that results in a decline in hematocrit and hence a
    pseudo-anemia.

    Andy Coggan

    Report
  13. Warren
    Archived post
    #13

    In article <[email hidden]>, Tom Kunich

    Quoted message said:

    "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    In article said:

    Today they would DQ these folks on high hematocrit levels.

    They could get benefit and still be below the allowable limit.

    Err, what is the benefit of having the same level as everyone else?

    Many are "naturally" well below the limit, say, 38-44, and they could "artificially" increase their
    hematocrit up as far as possible to 45-48 and stay under the limit.

    -WG

    Report
  14. Dion Dock
    Archived post
    #14

    You bring up an interesting point: why has blood doping fallen out of fashion? Or has it?

    -Dion

    "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Here's an interesting web page about blood doping/boosting.

    gen.umn.eduexample student project
    s/Sum2000/Blood_doping/dopehow.htm

    "Approximately six weeks before competition an athlete withdraws one to four units of his/her
    blood (1 unit = 450 ml of blood). The blood is centrifuged and the athlete then immediately
    reinfuses the plasma components. The remaining red blood cells are placed in cold storage. The six
    week time frame is important since this is how long it takes an individual to restore the lost
    blood. Between 1 to 7 days before the event, the athlete reinfuses the red blood cells placed in
    storage. When this process is performed accurately, an athlete can increase his/her hemoglobin
    level and red blood cell count by up to 20%. This provides the body with an increased oxygen level
    to greater improve athletic performance and increase the body's potential.

    The effects of blood doping are boosted when the athlete trains at a high altitude. At high
    altitudes, the athlete's body, which is used to an hypoxic state, will compensate by increasing
    red blood cell production. When the athlete moves down to a low altitude, their body is engulfed
    with oxygen rich red blood cells, helping their performance. The athlete then further boosts their
    body's oxygen level by infusing the stored red blood cells."

    The site provides an example (doesn't state if high-alttude training was also utilized) and shows
    that Hematocrit increased from 43 to 55, and VO2max increased by 13%.

    Report
  15. Sam
    Archived post
    #15

    "Steve McGinty" <stephenmcginty@ntlworld_DOT_.com> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On 15 Aug 2003 10:44:26 +0950, DiabloScott

    Quoted message said:

    This is pretty much what the US Olympians (including Grewal and Twigg) did in LA in 1984.

    Goes back at least to Lasse Viren the Finnish Olympic 5 and 10,000 mtr champ from the 1972 Games.

    Regards! Stephen

    Never proven...Lasse never disavowed it because if people were thinking he was boosting then he had
    thinking about that rather than how to beat him.

    Viren also was a champ in 1976 as well.

    Report
  16. Warren
    Archived post
    #16
    In article said:

    You bring up an interesting point: why has blood doping fallen out of fashion? Or has it?

    That's my question. Why wouldn't people still be doing it?

    -WG

    Quoted message said:


    -Dion

    "warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Here's an interesting web page about blood doping/boosting.

    gen.umn.eduexample student project
    s/Sum2000/Blood_doping/dopehow.htm

    "Approximately six weeks before competition an athlete withdraws one to four units of his/her
    blood (1 unit = 450 ml of blood). The blood is centrifuged and the athlete then immediately
    reinfuses the plasma components. The remaining red blood cells are placed in cold storage. The
    six week time frame is important since this is how long it takes an individual to restore the
    lost blood. Between 1 to 7 days before the event, the athlete reinfuses the red blood cells
    placed in storage. When this process is performed accurately, an athlete can increase his/her
    hemoglobin level and red blood cell count by up to 20%. This provides the body with an increased
    oxygen level to greater improve athletic performance and increase the body's potential.

    The effects of blood doping are boosted when the athlete trains at a high altitude. At high
    altitudes, the athlete's body, which is used to an hypoxic state, will compensate by increasing
    red blood cell production. When the athlete moves down to a low altitude, their body is engulfed
    with oxygen rich red blood cells, helping their performance. The athlete then further boosts
    their body's oxygen level by infusing the stored red blood cells."

    The site provides an example (doesn't state if high-alttude training was also utilized) and
    shows that Hematocrit increased from 43 to 55, and VO2max increased by 13%.

    Report
  17. Warren
    Archived post
    #17

    In article <[email hidden]>, Sam

    Quoted message said:

    "Steve McGinty" <stephenmcginty@ntlworld_DOT_.com> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On 15 Aug 2003 10:44:26 +0950, DiabloScott

    Quoted message said:

    This is pretty much what the US Olympians (including Grewal and Twigg) did in LA in 1984.

    Goes back at least to Lasse Viren the Finnish Olympic 5 and 10,000 mtr champ from the 1972
    Games.

    Regards! Stephen

    Never proven...Lasse never disavowed it because if people were thinking he was boosting then he
    had thinking about that rather than how to beat him.

    Like the Nolan Ryan spitball. It helped him beat batters even when the ball was clean.

    -WG

    Report
  18. Sam
    Archived post
    #18

    "Tom Schulenburg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:


    "Steve McGinty" <stephenmcginty@ntlworld_DOT_.com> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On 15 Aug 2003 10:44:26 +0950, DiabloScott

    Quoted message said:

    This is pretty much what the US Olympians (including Grewal and Twigg) did in LA in 1984.

    Goes back at least to Lasse Viren the Finnish Olympic 5 and 10,000 mtr champ from the 1972
    Games.

    And '76 games. Didn't win anything of note outside of that.

    -T


    Well there was not a lot else to win in those days. There were no World Championships. European
    Championships were about as close as one could get and obviously leaves out some important
    countries. Lasse treated the Olympics much like Lance treats the Tour.

    There was no big money road racing in those days and they are not allowed to take money without
    sacrificing their "amateur" status.

    Viren was offered 1 million dollars to tell a German magazine the true story in an exclusive, Viren
    told them that he would say he did not dope. The magazine decided not to offer the deal since there
    would be no story.

    Examine Viren's training (from Running with the Legends) fro a typical week leading up the Games:

    Sunday AM 25 km run (HR below 96 BPM!) in 1:46:00 PM 12 km fartlek 52:00 Monday AM 12 km (with
    8x600m uphills @ HR 180 bpm) 1:02:00 noon 15 km fartlek PM 12km fartlek 52:00

    Tuesday Am 15 km farltek 1:22:00 Noon 12 km of intervals 2x10x200, 5 min rest between sets
    50:00 PM 17km fartlek 1:08:00 Wednesday AM 15 km fartlek PM 20 km Thursday AM REST PM 22 km 1:22:00
    Friday AM 12 km fartlek 1:00:00 noon 15 km fartlek 58:00 PM 12 km fartlek 52:00 Saturday AM 12 km
    fartlek 50:00 Noon 16 km fartlek 1:05:00 PM 10 km 42:00

    Viren was an animal who peak properly for the only event he cared for or that matter.

    Report
  19. Tom D
    Archived post
    #19

    "Tom Schulenburg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Steve McGinty" <stephenmcginty@ntlworld_DOT_.com> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    On 15 Aug 2003 10:44:26 +0950, DiabloScott

    Quoted message said:

    This is pretty much what the US Olympians (including Grewal and Twigg) did in LA in 1984.

    Goes back at least to Lasse Viren the Finnish Olympic 5 and 10,000 mtr champ from the 1972
    Games.

    And '76 games. Didn't win anything of note outside of that.

    There was the hilarious case of Finland's Martti Vainio, stripped of his 1984 Olympic 10,000m silver
    medal for steroid use. He stopped using steroids months before the Games, and didn't expect to test
    positive, but had blood-boosted just before the event with blood he'd removed during a steroid
    cycle. Ouch.

    Many observers were convinced that gold medalist Alberto Cova (ITA) was also cheating somehow (his
    career apart from the Olympics wasn't distinguished), but iirc nothing was ever proven.

    Report
  20. Howard Kveck
    Archived post
    #20

    In article <[email hidden]>, Lindsay

    Quoted message said:

    Every time someone mentions Lasse Viren I think of the old Be Bop Deluxe song, Modern Music.

    "Lasse Viren, 3 Olympic Gold Medals already ..."

    That voice sounds a lot like Phil Liggett.

    Thanks for the reminder, that's a good song. And it does sound like PL, only if he was coming out
    of a radio.

    --
    tanx, Howard

    "Better a lapdog for a slip of a girl than a ... git." Blackadder

    remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

    Report

Keep exploring

Browse the sectionRoad Cycling Return to CyclingForumsStart at the home page Search discussionsFind another thread

Active in the last 60 minutes

Active in this thread

0 users · 0 guests ·0 bots ·0 total

No signed-in users are active right now.

No known search crawlers active right now.