Who needs EPO?

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Examine Viren's training (from Running with the Legends) fro a typical

week

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leading up the Games:

Sunday AM 25 km run (HR below 96 BPM!) in 1:46:00 PM 12 km fartlek 52:00 Monday AM 12 km (with
8x600m uphills @ HR 180 bpm) 1:02:00 noon 15 km fartlek PM 12km fartlek 52:00

Tuesday Am 15 km farltek 1:22:00 Noon 12 km of intervals 2x10x200, 5 min rest between sets
50:00 PM 17km fartlek 1:08:00 Wednesday AM 15 km fartlek PM 20 km Thursday AM REST PM 22 km
1:22:00 Friday AM 12 km fartlek 1:00:00 noon 15 km fartlek 58:00 PM 12 km fartlek 52:00
Saturday AM 12 km fartlek 50:00 Noon 16 km fartlek 1:05:00 PM 10 km 42:00

Viren was an animal who peak properly for the only event he cared for or that matter.

Sam,

You don't write with much hyperbole, if at all, but I'm supposed to believe that Viren ran 254 km
(155 miles)/week with a "rest" day of 'only' 22 km (14 miles) in a typical week?

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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In article said:

Today they would DQ these folks on high hematocrit levels.

They could get benefit and still be below the allowable limit.

Err, what is the benefit of having the same level as everyone else?

Err, maybe there is a benefit to having a greater red cell volume AND plasma volume? Did you notice
the numbers for average crit for the tour is no longer 49.9%? Do you think it's because the riders
aren't using epo any other means to alter blood chemistry any longer?

Maybe someone figured out that if you boost the crit, and dilute the blood back to an "athletic"
level by increasing the plasma volume, that you get even better results.

After all, in response to aerobic training, crit goes down, not up.

"Dion Dock" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

You bring up an interesting point: why has blood doping fallen out of fashion? Or has it?

-Dion

Doctors could have realized greater performace from increased total red cell volume by raising
plasma volume (artificially) to match pre-boost crits.

Howard Kveck said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Lindsay

Quoted message said:

Every time someone mentions Lasse Viren I think of the old Be Bop Deluxe song, Modern Music.

"Lasse Viren, 3 Olympic Gold Medals already ..."

That voice sounds a lot like Phil Liggett.

Thanks for the reminder, that's a good song. And it does sound like PL, only if he was coming
out of a radio.

I tracked down a copy and I think the voice is Alan Parry, who by coincedence was commentating on
the Weltklasse meet from Zurich last night.

I'd forgotten how good Bill Nelson and Be Bop Deluxe were.

Regards! Stephen

"Dan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

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"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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In article <[email hidden]>, DiabloScott <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Today they would DQ these folks on high hematocrit levels.

They could get benefit and still be below the allowable limit.

Err, what is the benefit of having the same level as everyone else?

Err, maybe there is a benefit to having a greater red cell volume AND plasma volume? Did you
notice the numbers for average crit for the tour is no longer 49.9%? Do you think it's because the
riders aren't using epo any other means to alter blood chemistry any longer?

Maybe someone figured out that if you boost the crit, and dilute the blood back to an "athletic"
level by increasing the plasma volume, that you get even better results.

After all, in response to aerobic training, crit goes down, not up.

There are a couple of problems with this theory, however. First, it is difficult to maintain an
artificially expanded plasma volume for more than 24 h or so, as the osmotically active substance
that is infused (dextran, albumin) is rapidly cleared. Thus, while this approach might work for a
one-day event, or to avoid running afoul of the hematocrit limits should a UCI vampire come
knocking, it would be hard to implement e.g., during a stage race. Second, since stroke volume does
not increase in trained subjects when total blood volume is increased via infusion of a plasma
volume substitute, it is hard to envision a mechanism by which this approach would be physiological
beneficial.

Andy Coggan

In article said:

Did you notice the numbers for average crit for the tour is no longer 49.9%?

49% is too risky when you know that dehydration can pop you over the
limit. Every rider knows they'll be tested before the Tour begins so it's prudent to make certain
they'll qualify. I did notice that the average of the results taken later in the race did not
show much decline. IOW, the average didn't seem to decline as much as we might expect. To me
this implied that the average was raised artificially.

-WG

"Tom D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
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"Tom Schulenburg" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

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"Steve McGinty" <stephenmcginty@ntlworld_DOT_.com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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On 15 Aug 2003 10:44:26 +0950, DiabloScott
>This is pretty much what the US Olympians (including Grewal and

Twigg)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

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>did in LA in 1984.

Goes back at least to Lasse Viren the Finnish Olympic 5 and 10,000 mtr champ from the 1972
Games.

And '76 games. Didn't win anything of note outside of that.

There was the hilarious case of Finland's Martti Vainio, stripped of his 1984 Olympic 10,000m
silver medal for steroid use. He stopped using steroids months before the Games, and didn't expect
to test positive, but had blood-boosted just before the event with blood he'd removed during a
steroid cycle. Ouch.

Blood-boosted with his own blood that was "months old?" I doubt it. 3-4 weeks is all whole
blood lasts.

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Many observers were convinced that gold medalist Alberto Cova (ITA) was also cheating somehow (his
career apart from the Olympics wasn't distinguished), but iirc nothing was ever proven.

"Ken Papai" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:yYs%a.158484$uu5.23820@sccrnsc04...

Quoted message said:

Blood-boosted with his own blood that was "months old?" I doubt it. 3-4 weeks is all whole
blood lasts.

Which is why initial scientific studies of so-called blood doping generally yielded negative
results. It was only after the high glycerol freeze technique was invented that RBCs (not whole
blood) could be stored long enough for a subject to regenerate that which was removed, such that
reinfusion of the stored RBCs resulted in an increase in hematocrit. Studies using this method have
consistently found increases in VO2max, etc.

Andy Coggan

In article <[email hidden]>, Andy Coggan

Quoted message said:

"Ken Papai" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:yYs%a.158484$uu5.23820@sccrnsc04...

Quoted message said:

Blood-boosted with his own blood that was "months old?" I doubt it. 3-4 weeks is all whole blood
lasts.

Which is why initial scientific studies of so-called blood doping generally yielded negative
results. It was only after the high glycerol freeze technique was invented that RBCs (not whole
blood) could be stored long enough for a subject to regenerate that which was removed, such that
reinfusion of the stored RBCs resulted in an increase in hematocrit. Studies using this method
have consistently found increases in VO2max, etc.

I know why an increase in RBC's would help performance but why/how does an increase in plasma volume
alone help performance-assuming you're not dehydrated?

-WG

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Sam

Quoted message said:

"Steve McGinty" <stephenmcginty@ntlworld_DOT_.com> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 15 Aug 2003 10:44:26 +0950, DiabloScott
>This is pretty much what the US Olympians (including Grewal and

Twigg)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>did in LA in 1984.

Goes back at least to Lasse Viren the Finnish Olympic 5 and 10,000 mtr champ from the 1972
Games.

Regards! Stephen

Never proven...Lasse never disavowed it because if people were thinking

he

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was boosting then he had thinking about that rather than how to beat

him.

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Like the Nolan Ryan spitball. It helped him beat batters even when the ball was clean.

-WG

Ryan was never known for his spitball; that was Gaylord Perry.

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Sam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Examine Viren's training (from Running with the Legends) fro a typical

week

Quoted message said:

leading up the Games:

Sunday AM 25 km run (HR below 96 BPM!) in 1:46:00 PM 12 km fartlek 52:00 Monday AM 12 km (with
8x600m uphills @ HR 180 bpm) 1:02:00 noon 15 km fartlek PM 12km fartlek 52:00

Tuesday Am 15 km farltek 1:22:00 Noon 12 km of intervals 2x10x200, 5 min rest between

sets

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

50:00 PM 17km fartlek 1:08:00 Wednesday AM 15 km fartlek PM 20 km Thursday AM REST PM 22 km
1:22:00 Friday AM 12 km fartlek 1:00:00 noon 15 km fartlek 58:00 PM 12 km fartlek 52:00
Saturday AM 12 km fartlek 50:00 Noon 16 km fartlek 1:05:00 PM 10 km 42:00

Viren was an animal who peak properly for the only event he cared for or that matter.

Sam,

You don't write with much hyperbole, if at all, but I'm supposed to

believe

Quoted message said:

that Viren ran 254 km (155 miles)/week with a "rest" day of 'only' 22 km

(14

Quoted message said:

miles) in a typical week?

That is taken from his training log. Written in Running with the Legends by Mike Sandrock.

"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Says who? So-called footstrike hemolysis obviously doesn't occur in (road) cyclists, but there is
still an increase in plasma volume that results in

a

Quoted message said:

decline in hematocrit and hence a pseudo-anemia.

Is it seen in cyclists as well? and how large would you say it is? Is it permanent? Not that I have
my litterature really present, but I seem to recall that it was actually not that signifikant...

- Mikkel
--
Mikkel Gybel Jensen home.tiscali.dk~mgjOpen ↗ pcarlp.dkpcarlp.dkOpen ↗ rumfart.dkrumfart.dkOpen ↗

[QUOTE][i]

Many are "naturally" well below the limit, say, 38-44, and they could "artificially" increase their
hematocrit up as far as possible to 45-48 and stay under the limit.

-WG [/B][/QUOTE]

I think it is pretty safe to say that all riders are in the 45-50 range. If you aren't then you aren;t competitive. How riders get there is debatable. Even altitude tents might get a rider to that level. I honestly don;t have a problem with people taking a little epo to get to 48. The real question is what is going on beyond the threshold and whether there are efficent masking techniques.

"Dion Dock" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

You bring up an interesting point: why has blood doping fallen out of fashion? Or has it?

It may not have fallen out of fashion as it is currently not tested for. It is possible that there
might be ways to test for it but, to my knowledge, there is nothing currently used. EPO use is
considerably easier, safer, requires fewer people to be involved and accomplishes the same thing.
Until recently EPO testing was also problematic. The availability of EPO made blood boosting less
attractive. The new testing for EPO has changed that so expect changes.
--
Mike Murray

warren said:

Many are "naturally" well below the limit, say, 38-44, and they could "artificially" increase
their hematocrit up as far as possible to 45-48 and stay under the limit.

They would still be in violation of the rules against blood boosting, although this would be
difficult to detect by testing.
--
Mike Murray

"Mikkel Gybel Jensen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Says who? So-called footstrike hemolysis obviously doesn't occur in

(road)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cyclists, but there is still an increase in plasma volume that results

in

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

decline in hematocrit and hence a pseudo-anemia.

Is it seen in cyclists as well? and how large would you say it is? Is it permanent? Not that I
have my litterature really present, but I seem to recall that it was actually not that
signifikant...

Yes, big enough to result in about a 10% (relative) reduction in hematocrit, and no (quickly
reversible upon cessation of training).

Footstrike hemolysis is actually a relative minor factor in causing "sports anemia".

Andy Coggan

warren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

49% is too risky when you know that dehydration can pop you over the
limit. Every rider knows they'll be tested before the Tour begins so it's prudent to make certain
they'll qualify. I did notice that the average of the results taken later in the race did
not show much decline. IOW, the average didn't seem to decline as much as we might expect.
To me this implied that the average was raised artificially.

-WG

wasn't the average down to 43% or something this year?

"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

There are a couple of problems with this theory, however. First, it is difficult to maintain an
artificially expanded plasma volume for more than 24 h or so, as the osmotically active substance
that is infused (dextran, albumin) is rapidly cleared. Thus, while this approach might work for a
one-day event, or to avoid running afoul of the hematocrit limits should a UCI vampire come
knocking, it would be hard to implement e.g., during a stage race. Second, since stroke volume
does not increase in trained subjects when total blood volume is increased via infusion of a
plasma volume substitute, it is hard to envision a mechanism by which this approach would be
physiological beneficial.

Andy Coggan

What is it that alows us to naturally level out with a certain plasma volume...something other than
albumin? Maybe a protein free dyalisate of calf's blood?

Anyway, if money is no object, what's to stop someone from pulling out a few units, and putting them
back in after breakfast? Why is it that some riders' weights deviate so wildly? The hematocrit tests
are always done first thing in the morning.

Conspiracy theories are always fun.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Steve McGinty stephenmcginty@ntlworld_DOT_.com said:

I tracked down a copy and I think the voice is Alan Parry, who by coincedence was commentating on
the Weltklasse meet from Zurich last night.

I'd forgotten how good Bill Nelson and Be Bop Deluxe were.

Regards! Stephen

BBD were quite good, but I preferred (by a small degreee) the sort-of follow up band, Bill
Nelson's Red Noise. Either way, it was cool stuff.

--
tanx, Howard

"Better a lapdog for a slip of a girl than a ... git." Blackadder

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

In article said:

warren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

49% is too risky when you know that dehydration can pop you over the
limit. Every rider knows they'll be tested before the Tour begins so it's prudent to make
certain they'll qualify. I did notice that the average of the results taken later in the
race did not show much decline. IOW, the average didn't seem to decline as much as we
might expect. To me this implied that the average was raised artificially.

-WG

wasn't the average down to 43% or something this year?

I think at the start the aaverage for all riders was something around 45 and then went down only one
or two points among the riders who were tested about 2 weeks into the Tour. Perhaps the number more
interesting than the average is seeing who was at 47-49 at the start and then how much it changed
during the race.

-WG