Which cart. BB when "upgrading"

Robert said:

I have several bikes that are using the cup / spindle BB setup. From
all I read, it seems that the cartridge BB are a good thing. So when
the time comes to change from the old school techology to cart. BB, do
I get a cart. of the same lenght as the present spindle?

Yeah, and the right threading as well.

Quoted message said:

Also, is there a chart of the Shimano cart. BB's to see how long the
taper is that extends outside the cart. body?

Thanks

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbsize.html#shimano

nothing wrong with cup/spindle if it's not giving you problems.
Cartridge are indeed convenient, and a great value when you consider
the time it takes to pack a BB. I like the cheap and cheerful Shimano
ones, I've never had a lick of trouble with them. I'd probably not
bother to replace a cup/cone bike with a cart if there wasn't pitting
or wear. YMMV.

This is really not too hard and was covered in the past (you can
search google groups to get those old questions and answers ...)

Most historic bottom brackets cup-and-spindle have roughly a 3mm
offset on the drive-side.

Nearly all bottom brackets sold today are totally symmetric.

To replace a historic bottom bracket with a modern one, simply buy a
modern one that's 3 mm wider. Your drive-side will be exactly right,
and your non-drive side will be pushed 3 mm further outboard. Your
legs will hardly notice.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA, USA

(Donald Gillies) said:

This is really not too hard and was covered in the past (you can
search google groups to get those old questions and answers ...)

Most historic bottom brackets cup-and-spindle have roughly a 3mm
offset on the drive-side.

Nearly all bottom brackets sold today are totally symmetric.

To replace a historic bottom bracket with a modern one, simply buy a
modern one that's 3 mm wider. Your drive-side will be exactly right,
and your non-drive side will be pushed 3 mm further outboard. Your
legs will hardly notice.

Was the 3mm number actually standard enough for doing it this way to
be that great an idea, compared to just measuring?

Whoops, 3mm was used by Campagnolo doubles and its clones (e.g. bottom
brackets generally less than 115 mm in width). Sugino mighty used 4mm
(1973), and later 5mm (1978).

A = non-drive
B = center
C = drive-side

A B C
3S 35 52 37.5 2.5mm ; single, i think (track)
3T 35 52 39 4 mm ;
3U 35 52 40.5 5.5 mm ; double, sugino maxy
3SS 32 52 37.5 5.5 mm ; double, sugino maxy
3R 35 52 42 7 mm ;

(S = single, W=double, T=triple)

http://sheldonbrown.com/harris/bottombrackets.html

I am noticing that Sheldon Brown's web-table has lots of typos
compared to the sugino manufacturer documentation (most of sheldon's
data lists 32 for the non-drive side, whereas Sugino lists 35 mm for
the non-drive side.)

http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~uc6y-ssk/Image/special/sugino73_07.jpg
http://www.asahi-net.or.jp/~uc6y-ssk/Image/special/sugino78_04.jpg

Swaged cranks (where arm and spider are held together with a metal
rivet) are wider, e.g. 5.5mm as seen in the tables above for sugino
maxy cranks.

Nate Knutson said:

Was the 3mm number actually standard enough for doing it this way to
be that great an idea, compared to just measuring?

In summary, no, i guess 3mm is not a good "rule of thumb". So, you
should measure the overall BB width, then measure the offset on each
side. Take the difference and add it to the overall width. This is
the size of symmetric cartridge bottom-bracket that you need to get.

Thanx for that kick in the head, i needed it ... :-) :-)

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have several bikes that are using the cup / spindle BB setup. From
all I read, it seems that the cartridge BB are a good thing. So when
the time comes to change from the old school techology to cart. BB, do
I get a cart. of the same lenght as the present spindle?

Also, is there a chart of the Shimano cart. BB's to see how long the
taper is that extends outside the cart. body?

Thanks

There is nothing inferior about cup and cone bottom brackets. The bike I
have been riding for the last 33 years, including today, has a "old school"
bottom bracket. Once a year I take it apart, add new balls and new grease.
I am on the third spindle ($8 part), but the cups are fine. Cartridge BBs
are generally heavier, feature smaller, faster wear balls, have higher drag,
and are usually cannot be disassembled to replace grease. Cartridge BBs are
not impervious to dirt and water. Sealed cartridge BBs let in contaminants
at the same rate as the sealed older BBs.

So unless your existing BB is seriously shot, get it serviced and it will be
good for another year. If your shop doesn't know how to do this, get
another shop.

Quoted message said:

(Donald Gillies) said:

This is really not too hard and was covered in the past (you can
search google groups to get those old questions and answers ...)
Most historic bottom brackets cup-and-spindle have roughly a 3mm
offset on the drive-side.
Nearly all bottom brackets sold today are totally symmetric.
To replace a historic bottom bracket with a modern one, simply buy a
modern one that's 3 mm wider. Your drive-side will be exactly right,
and your non-drive side will be pushed 3 mm further outboard. Your
legs will hardly notice.

Nate Knutson said:

Was the 3mm number actually standard enough for doing it this way to
be that great an idea, compared to just measuring?

It's a very rough guideline, there are more exceptions than 3mm offsets.
Modern Chorus Triple asymmetric BB sets are cheap and plentiful BTW.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

There is nothing inferior about cup and cone bottom brackets. The bike I
have been riding for the last 33 years, including today, has a "old
school" bottom bracket. Once a year I take it apart, add new balls and
new grease. I am on the third spindle ($8 part), but the cups are fine.
Cartridge BBs are generally heavier, feature smaller, faster wear balls,
have higher drag, and are usually cannot be disassembled to replace
grease. Cartridge BBs are not impervious to dirt and water. Sealed
cartridge BBs let in contaminants at the same rate as the sealed older
BBs.

So unless your existing BB is seriously shot, get it serviced and it will
be good for another year. If your shop doesn't know how to do this, get
another shop.

Both personal & professional experience tells me that sealed-bearing bottom
brackets have been a wonderful improvement over standard cup & cone units.
I'll admit that I'm dubious about hubs, but in bottom brackets, I am
frequently amazed at how long relatively-inexpensive Shimano cartridge units
hold up. Not the el-cheapo LP-25s and such, but anything from UN-50 & up.
While on the other hand, standard cup & cone units will frequently grind
themselves to pieces after a single rainy season, if not torn apart, cleaned
& regreased every couple hundred rainy miles or so.

Hubs seem to be a different matter entirely. The use of cartridge bearings
in hubs, I believe, is more from simplicity of design than durability. And
cartridge hub bearings are notorious for seeming to siphon water into them
more easily than it exits them, allowing them to rust fairly rapidly. But
cartridge bottom brackets don't seem to suffer this effect, for reasons I
don't understand.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com

Robert said:

I have several bikes that are using the cup / spindle BB setup. From
all I read, it seems that the cartridge BB are a good thing. So when
the time comes to change from the old school techology to cart. BB, do
I get a cart. of the same lenght as the present spindle?

Yes...BUT a cup and cone, altho needing more service, will be
smoother, easier to turn.

Quoted message said:

Also, is there a chart of the Shimano cart. BB's to see how long the
taper is that extends outside the cart. body?

Nope, just match the spindle length.

Quoted message said:

Thanks

(Donald Gillies) said:

This is really not too hard and was covered in the past (you can
search google groups to get those old questions and answers ...)

Most historic bottom brackets cup-and-spindle have roughly a 3mm
offset on the drive-side.

Nearly all bottom brackets sold today are totally symmetric.

To replace a historic bottom bracket with a modern one, simply buy a
modern one that's 3 mm wider. Your drive-side will be exactly right,
and your non-drive side will be pushed 3 mm further outboard. Your
legs will hardly notice.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA, USA

Not exactly..granted this gent didn't mention which BB and crank he is
dealing with but if he has a DA or Ultegra..that have a 11`3mm
spindle, he needs to replace it with a UN series of 113mm in length,
not 116mm...If Campagnolo, and say a 111mm cup and ball for an older
Record/Chorus/Daytona/Athena..he needs to replace with a 111mm
Campagnolo BB..not 114mm.

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

There is nothing inferior about cup and cone bottom brackets. The bike I
have been riding for the last 33 years, including today, has a "old
school" bottom bracket. Once a year I take it apart, add new balls and
new grease. I am on the third spindle ($8 part), but the cups are fine.
Cartridge BBs are generally heavier, feature smaller, faster wear balls,
have higher drag, and are usually cannot be disassembled to replace
grease. Cartridge BBs are not impervious to dirt and water. Sealed
cartridge BBs let in contaminants at the same rate as the sealed older
BBs.

So unless your existing BB is seriously shot, get it serviced and it will
be good for another year. If your shop doesn't know how to do this, get
another shop.

Both personal & professional experience tells me that sealed-bearing bottom
brackets have been a wonderful improvement over standard cup & cone units.
I'll admit that I'm dubious about hubs, but in bottom brackets, I am
frequently amazed at how long relatively-inexpensive Shimano cartridge units
hold up. Not the el-cheapo LP-25s and such, but anything from UN-50 & up.
While on the other hand, standard cup & cone units will frequently grind
themselves to pieces after a single rainy season, if not torn apart, cleaned
& regreased every couple hundred rainy miles or so.

Hubs seem to be a different matter entirely. The use of cartridge bearings
in hubs, I believe, is more from simplicity of design than durability. And
cartridge hub bearings are notorious for seeming to siphon water into them
more easily than it exits them, allowing them to rust fairly rapidly. But
cartridge bottom brackets don't seem to suffer this effect, for reasons I
don't understand.

reason: cheap crappy seals on cheap crappy "bike quality" sealed hub
bearings.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/38636024@N00/1110408641/

"Dave Mayer" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:RJMzi.90704$fJ5.61386@pd7urf1no...

Quoted message said:

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I have several bikes that are using the cup / spindle BB setup. From
all I read, it seems that the cartridge BB are a good thing. So when
the time comes to change from the old school techology to cart. BB, do
I get a cart. of the same lenght as the present spindle?

Also, is there a chart of the Shimano cart. BB's to see how long the
taper is that extends outside the cart. body?

Thanks

There is nothing inferior about cup and cone bottom brackets. The bike

I

Quoted message said:

have been riding for the last 33 years, including today, has a "old

school"

Quoted message said:

bottom bracket. Once a year I take it apart, add new balls and new

grease.

Quoted message said:

I am on the third spindle ($8 part), but the cups are fine. Cartridge

BBs

Quoted message said:

are generally heavier, feature smaller, faster wear balls, have higher

drag,

Quoted message said:

and are usually cannot be disassembled to replace grease. Cartridge BBs

are

Quoted message said:

not impervious to dirt and water. Sealed cartridge BBs let in

contaminants

Quoted message said:

at the same rate as the sealed older BBs.

So unless your existing BB is seriously shot, get it serviced and it

will be

Quoted message said:

good for another year. If your shop doesn't know how to do this, get
another shop.

I have a Phil Wood sealed bearing BB that I've been using since 1975. It's
been in 3-4 different bikes and has untold miles on it including
considerable off road use. It's still smooth and there's no sign of seal
failure.

On the other hand I've changed out 4 loose bearing cup and spindle BBs on
low mileage bikes that I've acquired over the past 6-9 months. These were
Campy and Shimano BBs that failed.

I transferred a TA loose bearing BB from one retro frame to another. It
had been lightly used for 8-10 years with a Stronglight crankset and then
sat idle for another 6 years. I originally packed the bearings with Quaker
State automotive wheel bearing grease. The grease was still usable and the
bearings had no wear. I replaced the bearings and repacked the BB with
Park grease. I'll see how long that holds up.

Repacking BBs falls somewhere below rearranging my sock drawer in terms of
desirable activities. Maybe I would look at it differently if I lived in a
cold climate and needed something to do on a long winter's night.....

Chas.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

I have several bikes that are using the cup / spindle BB setup. From
all I read, it seems that the cartridge BB are a good thing. So when
the time comes to change from the old school techology to cart. BB, do
I get a cart. of the same lenght as the present spindle?
Also, is there a chart of the Shimano cart. BB's to see how long the
taper is that extends outside the cart. body?

Quoted message said:

"Dave Mayer" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

There is nothing inferior about cup and cone bottom brackets. The bike

I

Quoted message said:

have been riding for the last 33 years, including today, has a "old

school"

Quoted message said:

bottom bracket. Once a year I take it apart, add new balls and new

grease.

Quoted message said:

I am on the third spindle ($8 part), but the cups are fine. Cartridge

BBs

Quoted message said:

are generally heavier, feature smaller, faster wear balls, have higher

drag,

Quoted message said:

and are usually cannot be disassembled to replace grease. Cartridge BBs

are

Quoted message said:

not impervious to dirt and water. Sealed cartridge BBs let in

contaminants

Quoted message said:

at the same rate as the sealed older BBs.
So unless your existing BB is seriously shot, get it serviced and it

will be

Quoted message said:

good for another year. If your shop doesn't know how to do this, get
another shop.

* * Chas said:

I have a Phil Wood sealed bearing BB that I've been using since 1975. It's
been in 3-4 different bikes and has untold miles on it including
considerable off road use. It's still smooth and there's no sign of seal
failure.
On the other hand I've changed out 4 loose bearing cup and spindle BBs on
low mileage bikes that I've acquired over the past 6-9 months. These were
Campy and Shimano BBs that failed.
I transferred a TA loose bearing BB from one retro frame to another. It
had been lightly used for 8-10 years with a Stronglight crankset and then
sat idle for another 6 years. I originally packed the bearings with Quaker
State automotive wheel bearing grease. The grease was still usable and the
bearings had no wear. I replaced the bearings and repacked the BB with
Park grease. I'll see how long that holds up.
Repacking BBs falls somewhere below rearranging my sock drawer in terms of
desirable activities. Maybe I would look at it differently if I lived in a
cold climate and needed something to do on a long winter's night.....

C'mon over some sleeting February evening . My TA BB awaits.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote
> I have several bikes that are using the cup / spindle BB setup. From
> all I read, it seems that the cartridge BB are a good thing. So when
> the time comes to change from the old school techology to cart. BB,

do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> I get a cart. of the same lenght as the present spindle?
> Also, is there a chart of the Shimano cart. BB's to see how long the
> taper is that extends outside the cart. body?

Quoted message said:

"Dave Mayer" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

There is nothing inferior about cup and cone bottom brackets. The

bike

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I

Quoted message said:

have been riding for the last 33 years, including today, has a "old

school"

Quoted message said:

bottom bracket. Once a year I take it apart, add new balls and new

grease.

Quoted message said:

I am on the third spindle ($8 part), but the cups are fine.

Cartridge

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

BBs

Quoted message said:

are generally heavier, feature smaller, faster wear balls, have

higher

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

drag,

Quoted message said:

and are usually cannot be disassembled to replace grease. Cartridge

BBs

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are

Quoted message said:

not impervious to dirt and water. Sealed cartridge BBs let in

contaminants

Quoted message said:

at the same rate as the sealed older BBs.
So unless your existing BB is seriously shot, get it serviced and it

will be

Quoted message said:

good for another year. If your shop doesn't know how to do this, get
another shop.

* * Chas said:

I have a Phil Wood sealed bearing BB that I've been using since 1975.

It's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

been in 3-4 different bikes and has untold miles on it including
considerable off road use. It's still smooth and there's no sign of

seal

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

failure.
On the other hand I've changed out 4 loose bearing cup and spindle BBs

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

low mileage bikes that I've acquired over the past 6-9 months. These

were

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Campy and Shimano BBs that failed.
I transferred a TA loose bearing BB from one retro frame to another.

It

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

had been lightly used for 8-10 years with a Stronglight crankset and

then

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sat idle for another 6 years. I originally packed the bearings with

Quaker

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

State automotive wheel bearing grease. The grease was still usable and

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bearings had no wear. I replaced the bearings and repacked the BB with
Park grease. I'll see how long that holds up.
Repacking BBs falls somewhere below rearranging my sock drawer in

terms of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

desirable activities. Maybe I would look at it differently if I lived

in a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cold climate and needed something to do on a long winter's night.....

C'mon over some sleeting February evening . My TA BB awaits.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Where I live, it doesn't get much over 80° or under 40° (F°).....

Eat your heart out. ;-)

BTW, I grew up back east so I know what it's like on those long winter's
nights.

Chas.

* * Chas said:

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> "Robert" <[email hidden]> wrote
>> I have several bikes that are using the cup / spindle BB setup. From
>> all I read, it seems that the cartridge BB are a good thing. So when
>> the time comes to change from the old school techology to cart. BB,

do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> I get a cart. of the same lenght as the present spindle?
>> Also, is there a chart of the Shimano cart. BB's to see how long the
>> taper is that extends outside the cart. body?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Dave Mayer" <[email hidden]> wrote
> There is nothing inferior about cup and cone bottom brackets. The

bike

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I
> have been riding for the last 33 years, including today, has a "old
school"
> bottom bracket. Once a year I take it apart, add new balls and new
grease.
> I am on the third spindle ($8 part), but the cups are fine.

Cartridge

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

BBs
> are generally heavier, feature smaller, faster wear balls, have

higher

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

drag,
> and are usually cannot be disassembled to replace grease. Cartridge

BBs

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are
> not impervious to dirt and water. Sealed cartridge BBs let in
contaminants
> at the same rate as the sealed older BBs.
> So unless your existing BB is seriously shot, get it serviced and it
will be
> good for another year. If your shop doesn't know how to do this, get
> another shop.

Quoted message said:

* * Chas said:

I have a Phil Wood sealed bearing BB that I've been using since 1975.

It's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

been in 3-4 different bikes and has untold miles on it including
considerable off road use. It's still smooth and there's no sign of

seal

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

failure.
On the other hand I've changed out 4 loose bearing cup and spindle BBs

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

low mileage bikes that I've acquired over the past 6-9 months. These

were

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Campy and Shimano BBs that failed.
I transferred a TA loose bearing BB from one retro frame to another.

It

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

had been lightly used for 8-10 years with a Stronglight crankset and

then

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sat idle for another 6 years. I originally packed the bearings with

Quaker

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

State automotive wheel bearing grease. The grease was still usable and

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

bearings had no wear. I replaced the bearings and repacked the BB with
Park grease. I'll see how long that holds up.
Repacking BBs falls somewhere below rearranging my sock drawer in

terms of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

desirable activities. Maybe I would look at it differently if I lived

in a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cold climate and needed something to do on a long winter's night.....

Quoted message said:

C'mon over some sleeting February evening . My TA BB awaits.
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Where I live, it doesn't get much over 80° or under 40° (F°).....

Eat your heart out. ;-)

BTW, I grew up back east so I know what it's like on those long winter's
nights.

I went snow skiing in the brilliant sun a week ago. And I rode my bike
to the ski lodge (Timberline, 6,000 feet). Eat your heart out (at
least for this brief period of the year when it is not raining, then
just feel sorry for me for the rest of the year). Actually, if I
moved back to California, where I was born and raised and couldn't
afford to live anyway, I would miss the seasons.-- Jay Beattie.

Robert said:

I have several bikes that are using the cup / spindle BB setup. From
all I read, it seems that the cartridge BB are a good thing. So when
the time comes to change from the old school techology to cart. BB, do
I get a cart. of the same lenght as the present spindle?

Also, is there a chart of the Shimano cart. BB's to see how long the
taper is that extends outside the cart. body?

Thanks

In my experience, the hardest part in switching old-style to new BB's is
getting the (fixed) cups out. You might try that first before investing
in a new BB.

Check Sheldon Brown's site for his BB database.

Peter Cole said:

Robert said:

I have several bikes that are using the cup / spindle BB setup. From
all I read, it seems that the cartridge BB are a good thing. So when
the time comes to change from the old school techology to cart. BB, do
I get a cart. of the same lenght as the present spindle?

Quoted message said:

Also, is there a chart of the Shimano cart. BB's to see how long the
taper is that extends outside the cart. body?

Quoted message said:

Thanks

In my experience, the hardest part in switching old-style to new BB's is
getting the (fixed) cups out. You might try that first before investing
in a new BB.

Check Sheldon Brown's site for his BB database.

Thanks for all the info. My main reason for asking is that my closest
local shop is truely pitiful. So it seemed that getting a cart. from
an online souce would be easier.

I have not had any real problems with cup and cone setups, just
looking for info that would enable me to order correctly when / if I
do change over.

Robert
Texas

Peter Cole said:

Robert said:

I have several bikes that are using the cup / spindle BB setup. From
all I read, it seems that the cartridge BB are a good thing. So when
the time comes to change from the old school techology to cart. BB, do
I get a cart. of the same lenght as the present spindle?

Quoted message said:

Also, is there a chart of the Shimano cart. BB's to see how long the
taper is that extends outside the cart. body?

Quoted message said:

Thanks

In my experience, the hardest part in switching old-style to new BB's is
getting the (fixed) cups out. You might try that first before investing
in a new BB.

Check Sheldon Brown's site for his BB database.

Have a 1984 BB in my Merckx...also have a few replacements. Also have
a PhilWood in 111mm length. When I get old(er) and lazy, I'll put the
Phil in, otherwise I'll continue with the very smooth cup and ball.
Fits in with the C-Record/Delta group on the bike.

* * Chas said:

"A Muzi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
Repacking BBs falls somewhere below rearranging my sock drawer in

terms of

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

desirable activities. Maybe I would look at it differently if I lived

in a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cold climate and needed something to do on a long winter's night.....

C'mon over some sleeting February evening . My TA BB awaits.

Where I live, it doesn't get much over 80° or under 40° (F°).....

Eat your heart out. ;-)

BTW, I grew up back east so I know what it's like on those long winter's
nights.

Why do you think cheeseheads drink so much beer?

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
A Real Cyclist [TM] keeps at least one bicycle in the bedroom.

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com