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Where are the inexpensive steel bikes?

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Cycling Equipment
Published
19 June 2004
Last activity
24 June 2004
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Tai
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  1. I bought a Marin steel - ok, Thron cro-mo - road bike a few
    years ago and notice Marin now have aluminum road bikes, at
    least at the low-end. Looking at other bike makes, the
    selection of cro-mo road bikes under $1K is getting smaller.
    I know aluminum bikes are a little lighter, but are
    consumers making the choice to go to alum and/or the makers
    finding alum bikes more profitable?

    Wondering where steel bikes are going, Tai

    P.S. I wasn't really asking for the pros and cons of steel
    vs. aluminum, but more about market and consumer, um,
    dynamics at the low-end of bike sales. :-)

  2. (Tai) said:

    I bought a Marin steel - ok, Thron cro-mo - road bike a few
    years ago and notice Marin now have aluminum road bikes, at
    least at the low-end. Looking at other bike makes, the
    selection of cro-mo road bikes under $1K is getting
    smaller. I know aluminum bikes are a little lighter, but
    are consumers making the choice to go to alum and/or the
    makers finding alum bikes more profitable?

    Wondering where steel bikes are going,

    It's important to note that the mass market is concentrating
    on the mountain bike, cruiser, youth and comfort segments
    today. Road bikes are entirely absent from the selections at
    many major non-bike-centered retailers. Even some sporting
    goods stores have stopped carrying them. As a result, there
    are few road bikes in the low-end segment; for a limited
    market that's perceived as being esoteric, the selections of
    materials tends to edge away from what's regarded as less
    desirable...and steel is out of fashion for most types of
    "real" bikes. It's largely relegated to tandems and the lowest-
    end units at Wal-Mart and similar places. Many custom frame
    builders still make excellent steel frames, though, and in
    my opinion, steel is still the material of choice for a long-
    term durable bike.

  3. (Tai) said:

    I bought a Marin steel - ok, Thron cro-mo - road bike a few
    years ago and notice Marin now have aluminum road bikes, at
    least at the low-end. Looking at other bike makes, the
    selection of cro-mo road bikes under $1K is getting
    smaller. I know aluminum bikes are a little lighter, but
    are consumers making the choice to go to alum and/or the
    makers finding alum bikes more profitable?

    Wondering where steel bikes are going, Tai

    P.S. I wasn't really asking for the pros and cons of steel
    vs. aluminum, but more about market and consumer, um,
    dynamics at the low-end of bike sales. :-)

    Surly Soma Interloc/IRD Jamis? Fuji?

    Steel isn't common in the mainstream, but on the edges there
    are low(er) priced steel frames and complete bicycles which
    aren't custom. If these companies grow, you can be sure the
    large ones will notice and make steel frames at the low end.

    Not a road bike, but...

    marinbikes.comspec 04 muirwoods.html

    Others like that scattered around.

    By the way, why the 'ok, Thron cro-mo' aside? Something
    about Thron I should know? I picked up a DeBernardi Thron
    frame last winter for almost nothing and am enjoying it. Is
    it not real steel or something?
    🙂

  4. Dan Daniel <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    By the way, why the 'ok, Thron cro-mo' aside? Something
    about Thron I should know? I picked up a DeBernardi Thron
    frame last winter for almost nothing and am enjoying it.
    Is it not real steel or something?
    🙂

    I'm very happy with my Thron frame Marin, too. The aside was
    meant to show by steel I meant cromoly.

  5. taimorris-<< I know aluminum bikes are a little lighter, but
    are consumers making the choice to go to alum and/or the
    makers finding alum bikes more profitable? >><BR><BR>

    Aluminum, when compared to steel, is cheaper and easier to
    weld together, hence the proliferation of aluminum.

    Specialized has a Foco frameset/fork for about
    $500..look for that.

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
    Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali
    costruite eccezionalmente bene"

  6. Quoted message said:

    Aluminum, when compared to steel, is cheaper and easier to
    weld together, hence the proliferation of aluminum.

    Specialized has a Foco frameset/fork for about $500..look
    for that.

    To expand on Peter's post-wasn't he a bike rider?-you can
    buy an aluminium frame and fork from China for about $25.
    That's why there are no new inexpensive steel bikes. But the
    used bike market is full of very nice steel bikes at
    reasonable prices. And there are builders who make custom
    steel frames for $600 or $700 dollars as long as you don't
    want lugs or fancy paint. Phil Brown

  7. In article <[email hidden]>,

    (Tai) said:

    I bought a Marin steel - ok, Thron cro-mo - road bike a
    few years ago and notice Marin now have aluminum road
    bikes, at least at the low-end. Looking at other bike
    makes, the selection of cro-mo road bikes under $1K is
    getting smaller. I know aluminum bikes are a little
    lighter, but are consumers making the choice to go to alum
    and/or the makers finding alum bikes more profitable?

    Aluminum has almost no price disadvantage over steel now,
    for various mass-production reasons. Since an Al frame can
    usually be made a little lighter*, all but the very cheapest
    new bicycles default to Aluminum. And since some of the most
    expensive and lightest bikes are also made of Al, you get
    some cachet rubbing off on your "7005 ALUMINUM" Wal-bike.

    Quoted message said:

    Wondering where steel bikes are going, Tai

    They're just resting. I have been known to pay as much as
    $10 for a complete lugged road bike at a garage sale. I
    grabbed a half-decent 70s vintage Italian lugged frame out
    of a pile of garbage last week; I don't even know what I'm
    going to do with it, since it's pretty but I have lots of
    steel frames already.

    Unless you have some very specific reasons for it (you want
    a special geometry or it's the cheapest way to get the
    components you want), I don't see a keen need to buy a new
    steel frame. If I was willing to spend a few hours looking,
    I could probably bring home a decent-quality lugged steel
    road frame every weekend, in most cases as complete 25-year
    old bike, for $10 or less. Modern steel, especially in
    welded, non-lugged frames, might have a slight weight
    advantage, but it's on the order of a pound at most. I ride
    a mid-range Pinarello with indifferent (105, Sora)
    componentry, and it weighs only 22 pounds all in.

    Quoted message said:

    P.S. I wasn't really asking for the pros and cons of steel
    vs. aluminum, but more about market and consumer, um,
    dynamics at the low-end of bike sales. :-)

    The Taiwanese factories are very good at aluminum
    fabrication, and the price difference between raw steel and
    raw Al is not high. All the economic forces push towards
    defaulting to Al. Only very cheap (and mostly children's)
    bikes now use steel on the low end of the market. At the
    high end, you get into custom fabrication or companies
    marketing the cachet and positive attributes (repairability,
    beauty, magnets stick to it, etc.) of high-end steel
    construction. The middle is owned by Al.

    *I have a theory that whatever the relative merits of steel
    and Al for road frames, mountain bikes have a heavy natural
    bias towards aluminum because an Al frame built strongly
    enough to have a reasonable fatigue life will also be able
    to take relatively high one-time loads. By comparison, steel
    construction means not worrying about the fatigue life
    (which can be assumed to be nearly infinite if you don't
    exceed the yield strength), but that means you are building
    a bike with a lower ultimate tensile strength in the places
    where bike frames can fail. Road bikes don't get into a lot
    of super-high-load situations unless they're being crashed,
    but mountain bikes tend to get jumped, crashed, and dropped
    routinely. Does that make sense?

    --
    Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden]
    sfu.cawiredcola President, Fabrizio
    Mazzoleni Fan Club

  8. An Al frame built strongly enough to take high one-time
    loads or reasonable fatique life will weigh close to or just
    as much as a similarly strong steel frame, no? One could
    argue road bikes have more of a bias for Al because there's
    no need to make them strong enough for one-time loads and
    while their fatigue life may not be as long as steel, it's
    long enough for the vast majority of riders at the low-end
    and mid-range.

    Regardless, I was curious because 3 of my and my wife's 4
    bikes are steel (2 Gary Fisher mtn hardtails and 1 Marin
    road) and thought maybe there's been some recent development
    with Al that made my bikes obsolete, seeing as how fewer and
    fewer are offered. Apparently, my worries are unfounded and
    maybe I should count myself lucky to have fully capable
    steel bikes that are getting rarer.

    Tai

    Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<rcousine-
    [email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    ... *I have a theory that whatever the relative merits of
    steel and Al for road frames, mountain bikes have a heavy
    natural bias towards aluminum because an Al frame built
    strongly enough to have a reasonable fatigue life will
    also be able to take relatively high one-time loads. By
    comparison, steel construction means not worrying about
    the fatigue life (which can be assumed to be nearly
    infinite if you don't exceed the yield strength), but that
    means you are building a bike with a lower ultimate
    tensile strength in the places where bike frames can fail.
    Road bikes don't get into a lot of super-high-load
    situations unless they're being crashed, but mountain
    bikes tend to get jumped, crashed, and dropped routinely.
    Does that make sense?

  9. "Tai" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    I know aluminum bikes are a little lighter, but are
    consumers making the choice to go to alum and/or the
    makers finding alum bikes more profitable?

    Since weight is an important issue in bicycles, it's obvious
    to even the unsophisticated buyer that aluminum is a better
    material for bike frames than steel. Steel only continues to
    appeal to traditionalists.

    Quoted message said:

    Wondering where steel bikes are going,

    Away.

  10. Peter-<< Since weight is an important issue in bicycles,
    it's obvious to even the unsophisticated buyer that aluminum
    is a better material for bike frames than steel. Steel only
    continues to appeal to traditionalists. >><BR><BR>

    "Better' is a big word. If a frameset is lighter..it is just
    'lighter', not better. Thery are more than a few drawbacks
    to really light aluminum, just like light steel, like
    longevity.

    An aluminum frameset that is made to last weighs about the
    same as a steel frameset that is built to last. All from 3.2
    to about 3.6 pounds for the frameset. Is there sub 3 pound
    aluminum framesets out there? Sure, at $2500 per that will
    not last 3 years.

    Peter Chisholm Vecchio's Bicicletteria 1833 Pearl St.
    Boulder, CO, 80302
    (303)440-3535 vecchios.comvecchios.com "Ruote convenzionali
    costruite eccezionalmente bene"

  11. If you like Thron you should really try Navicrome !!!! Who
    says steel bikes can't be light. A Navicrome frame weighs
    less then a low end Aluminum frame and only a few ounces
    more then a high end Aluminum frame. With its ovalized down
    tube its both stiff a forgiving.

    I got my frame from vailcycleworks.com I bought a full
    blown custom MTB for less then a off the rack upper
    end bike--JJ

  12. "Peter Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:pjABc.89731$Sw.66939@attbi_s51...

    Quoted message said:

    "Tai" <[email hidden]> wrote

    Quoted message said:

    I know aluminum bikes are a little lighter, but are
    consumers making the choice to go to alum and/or the
    makers finding alum bikes more profitable?

    Since weight is an important issue in bicycles, it's
    obvious to even the unsophisticated buyer that aluminum is
    a better material for bike frames


    than

    Quoted message said:

    steel. Steel only continues to appeal to traditionalists.

    Quoted message said:

    Wondering where steel bikes are going,

    Away.

    Troll...

  13. Peter Cole said:

    Since weight is an important issue in bicycles, it's
    obvious to even the unsophisticated buyer that aluminum is
    a better material for bike frames than steel. Steel only
    continues to appeal to traditionalists.

    I would say that it's only the unsophisticated buyer who
    thinks that Al is a better material than steel.

    "The difference between Columbus Altec 2 (Al) and regular
    Columbus Foco (steel) for the same size frame, designed for
    the same rider, is about 60 grams. Let me repeat - 60 grams.
    Want to lay money on which one lasts longer?", Anvil Bike
    Works, "The Frame Weight Wars"

    anvilbikes.comstory.php

    --
    terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.com

  14. "Terry Morse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Peter Cole said:

    Since weight is an important issue in bicycles, it's
    obvious to even the unsophisticated buyer that aluminum
    is a better material for bike frames


    than

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    steel. Steel only continues to appeal to
    traditionalists.

    I would say that it's only the unsophisticated buyer who
    thinks that Al is a better material than steel.

    "The difference between Columbus Altec 2 (Al) and regular
    Columbus Foco (steel) for the same size frame, designed
    for the same rider, is about 60 grams. Let me repeat - 60
    grams. Want to lay money on which one lasts longer?",
    Anvil Bike Works, "The Frame Weight Wars"

    anvilbikes.comstory.php

    Based on the only published frame fatigue tests I've seen,
    I'll lay my money on the Al ones.

  15. ask the guys at the flea market then rebuild to stage 3

  16. "Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote >

    Quoted message said:

    . All the economic forces push towards defaulting to Al.
    Only very cheap (and mostly children's) bikes now use
    steel on the low end of the market. At the high end, you
    get into custom fabrication or companies marketing the
    cachet and positive attributes (repairability, beauty,
    magnets stick to it, etc.) of high-end steel
    construction. The middle is owned by Al.

    You're leaving out Ti and CF, the latter is the undisputed
    strength to weight champ.

    Quoted message said:

    *I have a theory that whatever the relative merits of
    steel and Al for road frames, mountain bikes have a heavy
    natural bias towards aluminum because an Al frame built
    strongly enough to have a reasonable fatigue life will
    also be able to take relatively high one-time loads.

    I think there is some truth to this, but the real reason Al
    dominates the MTB market is that those buyers aren't
    carrying the weight of tradition.

  17. On 21 Jun 2004 12:47:58 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla

    Campagnolo ) said:

    An aluminum frameset that is made to last weighs about the
    same as a steel frameset that is built to last. All from
    3.2 to about 3.6 pounds for the frameset. Is there sub 3
    pound aluminum framesets out there? Sure, at $2500 per that
    will not last 3 years.

    Peter Chisholm

    The all-aluminum Trek 2300 frame weighs less than 3 pounds
    and has a lifetime warranty. It's also less than the $2500
    you quote; the whole bike goes for about $2000.

    google.comgroups
    b21%40posting.google.com&output=gplain

    or

    tinyurl.com2yvy4

  18. dianne_1234 said:

    The all-aluminum Trek 2300 frame weighs less than 3 pounds
    and has a lifetime warranty.

    lifetime warranty != built to last. Could Trek be betting
    that the typical lifetime of a bike is about 500 miles, if
    that much? Most riders never wear out their tires, no to
    mention the frame.
    --
    terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.com

  19. "Peter Cole" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<ZJEBc.127959$3x.7769@attbi_s54>...

    Quoted message said:

    "Terry Morse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:tmorse-
    [email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Peter Cole said:

    Since weight is an important issue in bicycles, it's
    obvious to even the unsophisticated buyer that
    aluminum is a better material for bike frames


    than

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    steel. Steel only continues to appeal to
    traditionalists.

    I would say that it's only the unsophisticated buyer who
    thinks that Al is a better material than steel.

    "The difference between Columbus Altec 2 (Al) and
    regular Columbus Foco (steel) for the same size frame,
    designed for the same rider, is about 60 grams. Let me
    repeat - 60 grams. Want to lay money on which one lasts
    longer?", Anvil Bike Works, "The Frame Weight Wars"

    anvilbikes.comstory.php

    Based on the only published frame fatigue tests I've seen,
    I'll lay my money on the Al ones.

    True. When you look at the EFBE frame fatigue tests posted
    by Damon Rinard, now on Sheldon Brown's website, the much
    maligned Cannondale, Principia aluminum, and equally
    maligned Trek OCLV were the only ones to withstand the
    tests. The Merlin titanium, lugged steel bikes, etc. all
    broke. Very odd and unsettling how perception and reality
    don't always agree. Or even rarely agree.

    sheldonbrown.comframe fatigue test.
    htm

  20. Russell Seaton said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    "The difference between Columbus Altec 2 (Al) and
    regular Columbus Foco (steel) for the same size frame,
    designed for the same rider, is about 60 grams. Let me
    repeat - 60 grams. Want to lay money on which one
    lasts longer?", Anvil Bike Works, "The Frame Weight
    Wars"

    anvilbikes.comstory.php

    Based on the only published frame fatigue tests I've
    seen, I'll lay my money on the Al ones.

    True. When you look at the EFBE frame fatigue tests posted
    by Damon Rinard, now on Sheldon Brown's website, the much
    maligned Cannondale, Principia aluminum, and equally
    maligned Trek OCLV were the only ones to withstand the
    tests. The Merlin titanium, lugged steel bikes, etc. all
    broke. Very odd and unsettling how perception and reality
    don't always agree. Or even rarely agree.

    sheldonbrown.comframe fatigue
    test.htm

    The most salient conclusion from that test:

    "The fact that aluminum and carbon frames in this test
    lasted longer than the steel frames is not in our estimate a
    question of the material, but the design effort. Not the
    material, but its skillful use gives the result."

    In other words, any of these materials (Al, Ti, steel,
    carbon) can be used to make a durable, lighhtweight frame.
    Conversely, poor design can lead to a weak and heavy frame,
    whatever material is used.
    --
    terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.com

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