When cyclists squat...

The problem with specialising in squats is it may not be a good idea if you're hammering miles out on a bike. The two types of training are contrary.
What I mean by this is if I want to squat seriously it's pointless doing any serious cycling since cycling will chisel away at your leg muscle (in most cases). Plus, really serious squatting on power-lifter lines would probably hamper your cycling performance.
Myself I prefer to continue to squat but go lighter. I personally couldn't do heavy squats while riding 2- 3 hour training rides on the bike. To squat heavy I need rest, lots of food, more sleep and explosive, brief training. How can this be worked into cycling?
Sure, a Winter period of intensive squatting may be of use while you rest from the bike but you should expect your cycling performance to deteriorate somewhat during the process. Later it should pick up again once riding is resumed.
Other folks might differ from me but I prefer to squat lighter when I'm riding intensively and I opt for reps around the 20 range. I only do them as a supplementary exercise to maintain overall condition.

edd said:

Why ?

Do you have a reason or does it just smell right ?

ATF, or ass to calves will involve more muscles: Glutes, hams and quads. Parallel or higher takes out the hams and a little of the glutes.

Carrera said:

The problem with specialising in squats is it may not be a good idea if you're hammering miles out on a bike. The two types of training are contrary.
What I mean by this is if I want to squat seriously it's pointless doing any serious cycling since cycling will chisel away at your leg muscle (in most cases). Plus, really serious squatting on power-lifter lines would probably hamper your cycling performance.
Myself I prefer to continue to squat but go lighter. I personally couldn't do heavy squats while riding 2- 3 hour training rides on the bike. To squat heavy I need rest, lots of food, more sleep and explosive, brief training. How can this be worked into cycling?
Sure, a Winter period of intensive squatting may be of use while you rest from the bike but you should expect your cycling performance to deteriorate somewhat during the process. Later it should pick up again once riding is resumed.
Other folks might differ from me but I prefer to squat lighter when I'm riding intensively and I opt for reps around the 20 range. I only do them as a supplementary exercise to maintain overall condition.

this is true. weight training is of no benefit at all to endurance riders, in fact the high stress levels of weight traning and subsequent lean tissue gains can be detrimental to traning and racing. Look at Tyler Hamilton or Michael Boogerd.....do they look like they know their way around a power rack or are keen on ATG squats??

Leave the weight traning to the sprinters. (Proper sprinters like Jens Fiedler and Arnaud Tournant, not Robbie McEwen or Alessandro Petacchi)

It can be detrimental in a sense. The problem is that if you squat hard and seriously you will gain a lot of weight but also take a lot out of your recuperative system. Also when you squat really hard you need to lay off cycling or running in order to allow the legs to grow. Of course, a serious squatter would benefit from cycling prior to doing squats in the gym in order to warm up. But I don't think Hatfield's kind of squatting is what a serious cyclist should do (it's too close to powerlifting).
However, serious squatting could be a good idea in Winter.The idea is you build up a reserve of muscular power, gain a little weight and then hopefully profit from all of this in the cycling season when you drop the weights to specialise. But during this period of squatting, cycling performance will certainly drop. I know this since I did some Winter weights and then really struggled for a time on the bike when I resumed riding - I'd gained weight.
Many folks just don't like squats or weights at all so, in such a case, I reckon relay work on the bike is useful. Myself I pick a long steep hill and then attack it. Then I roll down and repeat the process. In a sense this can be even harder than squats if you go at it hard.

ed073 said:

this is true. weight training is of no benefit at all to endurance riders, in fact the high stress levels of weight traning and subsequent lean tissue gains can be detrimental to traning and racing. Look at Tyler Hamilton or Michael Boogerd.....do they look like they know their way around a power rack or are keen on ATG squats??

Leave the weight traning to the sprinters. (Proper sprinters like Jens Fiedler and Arnaud Tournant, not Robbie McEwen or Alessandro Petacchi)

Carrera said:

However, serious squatting could be a good idea in Winter.The idea is you build up a reserve of muscular power, gain a little weight and then hopefully profit from all of this in the cycling season when you drop the weights to specialise. But during this period of squatting, cycling performance will certainly drop.

the idea is rubbish. it doesn't help endurance cycling performance unless you're of a low fitness level (and then any exercise helps).

ric

I was pondering over something today. In fact I just got back from a training ride.
This has to do with your view that strength isn't necessary for cycling and that anyone can meet the forces required on a bike.
Today I did one of the most difficult climbs I ever tackled (spent half an hour psyching myself up for it). I can testify this climb really did require strength. I figured if I could get the pedals moving rhythmically for the first minute I was in with a chance of beating the hill. Otherwise forget it.
I'm not kidding but there's no way I could have done that climb just by using strength alone since I didn't have the strength in my legs to do it that way. I found my only option was to climb and swing the bike from side to side to keep myself in motion. I never used that technique before but it was my only option. Whenever I slipped into climbing in a straight line I found myself getting into real trouble. Why? Because the strength demand was too intense and had to be by-passed.
The good news is I got to the summit (don't ask in what condition) but I assure all you folks that that hill requires a large degree of leg-strength and even leg strength isn't enough unless you can draw on some technique.
I will post you all a pic of this hill as it's truly mind-boggling. You look up and all you see in front is a virtual wall that winds up out of sight. I must have been crazy to attempt it.

ricstern said:

the idea is rubbish. it doesn't help endurance cycling performance unless you're of a low fitness level (and then any exercise helps).

ric

Carrera said:

I was pondering over something today. In fact I just got back from a training ride.
This has to do with your view that strength isn't necessary for cycling and that anyone can meet the forces required on a bike.
Today I did one of the most difficult climbs I ever tackled (spent half an hour psyching myself up for it). I can testify this climb really did require strength. I figured if I could get the pedals moving rhythmically for the first minute I was in with a chance of beating the hill. Otherwise forget it.
I'm not kidding but there's no way I could have done that climb just by using strength alone since I didn't have the strength in my legs to do it that way. I found my only option was to climb and swing the bike from side to side to keep myself in motion. I never used that technique before but it was my only option. Whenever I slipped into climbing in a straight line I found myself getting into real trouble. Why? Because the strength demand was too intense and had to be by-passed.
The good news is I got to the summit (don't ask in what condition) but I assure all you folks that that hill requires a large degree of leg-strength and even leg strength isn't enough unless you can draw on some technique.
I will post you all a pic of this hill as it's truly mind-boggling. You look up and all you see in front is a virtual wall that winds up out of sight. I must have been crazy to attempt it.

Squats won't help you get up this berg any easier.

Well, I did kind of emphasise that there's more to climbing than strength. It's generally agreed that the best way to climb is to practise climbing which is what I'm doing lots of these days. But I was kind of on a on an up when I posted my last comment since I had only just got back from climbing that "monster".
I may need to develop my technique a bit, though. I definitely found that if you try and climb a very steep hill in a straight line the strength demand is apparent. However, if you go up in a zig-zag movement, it creates a kind of momentum that makes the climb far easier.
I think I would rather do a heavy set of squats than climb those sorts of hills since I think the squats are less painful. With the hills you have to endure some 15 minutes of gut-busting mauling.

ed073 said:

Squats won't help you get up this berg any easier.

Ted B said:

I've been an avid weightlifter/bodybuilder for the past 15 years, and only found cycling this past year as a solution to my quest for cardio without boredom.

Regarding squats, it is better to do a full squat with less weight than a partial squat with greater weight, unless you want lopsided development of your physique and strength. Squatting lower than parallel is not necessary, and those extra few degrees put tremendous tension on the quads' insertion tendon (which is stretched over the knee joint) with little benefit. It's just not necessary, and I've witnessed one person tearing the tendons in both knees from this(!).

What I recommend is the following:

Pre-exhaust your quads and glutes on a plate-loaded, seated leg press. I perform 5 sets of around 12 reps each, using increasing weight (stepping from 450lb up to 900lb) and good form. The leg press does a good job of pre-exhausting the strongest part of the quad.

Next, go to the Smith rack and perform your squats. I perform 3 supersets of 12X12 reps (back to back) alternating wide stance and close stance, using only moderate weight (increasing from 135-225lb) and performing the full movement. Since you're already pre-exhausted, you don't have to test your back using heavy weight. You will find that with your strongest part of the movement (toward the top) pre-exhausted, your strength through the movement will be fairly even. It will be difficult to walk immediately afterward if you do it properly.

Finally, finish with three sets of leg extensions, using moderate (but increasing) weight and good form/concentration.

This type of regimen works well because it will evenly distribute your quad/glute power, and is very easy on the knees and back. I always get inquiries/complements about my leg strength and physique, so I can attest that after years of experimentation, this really works, and best of all, it is SAFE.

This is what I've always been told as well, but I have also just started riding. I weight trainned for hockey not cycling, I've been lifting since I was 13 though and never have had knee problems until I started running 3 years ago, stopped running took up cycling (love it) and all the knee problems are gone again. I don't do squats anymore, I have a bad back and really don't care how well I play in the beer league.

labicci said:

The last thing cyclists want to do is to damage their knees, and squatting past 90 degrees may put too much stress on the knees.

To be honest I am no expert. Just happen to read some articles before.

L.B.

Not to mention your lower back. I lift weights as much as I mountain bike, and I can never understand why some would squat below parallel. It seems much too dangerous to me.

I am 44 years old and weigh 178 lbs and have performed full-squats exceeding 300 lbs for many years.

The primary danger to the knee occurs when the tissues of the calf and thigh press together altering the center of rotation back to the contact area creating a dislocation effect. The danger of knee injury in this situation may be prevented if either of the following factor are present:

• center of gravity of the body system is keep forward of the altered center of rotation
  
• muscles of the thigh are strong enough to prevent the body from resting or bouncing on the calves.
  

Flexibility and technique are critical. I have found that if squats are performed correctly and with appropriate weight they are much safer than some of the more popular exercises such as shoulder/bench presses and leg extensions.

I've squatted for years and I'm now just turned 40. I've hardly missed a squat session since I was 20. However, I confess my hips are often sore due to the fact I used to go quite heavy. In retrospect I should have had more lay-offs and done more light days.
I'm better off than most guys, though. I know people who had to pack in squats at 40 due to wear and tear.

findagroove said:

I am 44 years old and weigh 178 lbs and have performed full-squats exceeding 300 lbs for many years.

The primary danger to the knee occurs when the tissues of the calf and thigh press together altering the center of rotation back to the contact area creating a dislocation effect. The danger of knee injury in this situation may be prevented if either of the following factor are present:

• center of gravity of the body system is keep forward of the altered center of rotation
  
• muscles of the thigh are strong enough to prevent the body from resting or bouncing on the calves.
  

Flexibility and technique are critical. I have found that if squats are performed correctly and with appropriate weight they are much safer than some of the more popular exercises such as shoulder/bench presses and leg extensions.

findagroove said:

I am 44 years old and weigh 178 lbs and have performed full-squats exceeding 300 lbs for many years.

The primary danger to the knee occurs when the tissues of the calf and thigh press together altering the center of rotation back to the contact area creating a dislocation effect. The danger of knee injury in this situation may be prevented if either of the following factor are present:

• center of gravity of the body system is keep forward of the altered center of rotation
  
• muscles of the thigh are strong enough to prevent the body from resting or bouncing on the calves.
  

Flexibility and technique are critical. I have found that if squats are performed correctly and with appropriate weight they are much safer than some of the more popular exercises such as shoulder/bench presses and leg extensions.

Bump.

ATG squats good, leg extension bad.

As a body builder I was squating 180 - 200kg full drop, as a cyclist I squat 250kg to 90 - 100 degree. My knees are still in good knick (touch wood) but the reason I only go to 90 now is I can load up much larger and explode from a similiar position I would in a sprint. Works for me anyhow. For every "expert" opinion saying one thing on this subject you will find 5 saying he is wrong! only way to find out is to try and see what works for you

Fixey said:

As a body builder I was squating 180 - 200kg full drop, as a cyclist I squat 250kg to 90 - 100 degree. My knees are still in good knick (touch wood) but the reason I only go to 90 now is I can load up much larger and explode from a similiar position I would in a sprint. Works for me anyhow. For every "expert" opinion saying one thing on this subject you will find 5 saying he is wrong! only way to find out is to try and see what works for you

True....no subject excites debate more than how to perform squats. 90 degrees is fine for most lifters not concerned with maximum hypertrophy....what I can't stand is watching those peanuts in the gym loading plate after plate onto the bar and squatting their [censored] about 8 inches.....ggrrrrr.

I just did something today I imagine could be an alternative to squats - possibly more useful for cycling except, of course, the back doesn't come into play. My training involved climbing probably the biggest hill in my area and I confess it pushed me harder than squats ever had (even the 20 rep sets).
First I had to spend about 90 minutes getting to the hill and then another 15 minutes psyching myself up.
I guess there are some segments of this power climb that may well be around 28% and the preliminary ascent must be around 20% for quite some distance before you get to the hard bit. I confess I was also breathing really really hard at the top.
I'm not sure whether I ought to continue that kind of approach, though, or whether it would be beneficial to push things so hard. I kind of figured I could build climbing strength in my legs as well as stamina but it's rare you encounter hills like that during everyday cycling.
However, I have no hesitation when I say that's definitely the hardest training I've ever done and I'd basically prefer a 20 rep set of squats to climbing that S.O.B. The only consolation is the 50 mph descent when you go back down.

ed073 said:

True....no subject excites debate more than how to perform squats. 90 degrees is fine for most lifters not concerned with maximum hypertrophy....what I can't stand is watching those peanuts in the gym loading plate after plate onto the bar and squatting their [censored] about 8 inches.....ggrrrrr.

In my old gym there was a girl who squatted very heavy on a smith machine. I have no idea what sport she was into specifically but she used weights for power and I know she did kick-boxing.
The weird thing, though, is that I can imagine everyone thinking that if she squats 180 k.g. she would look like a female Russian shot-putter. That's the surprise, though, since I never saw a female athlete with such feminine curves e.t.c. and a body that would eclipse Sharon Stone. She stands about 6 feet 2 inches and looks like an Amazon so none of the guys can concentrate on their training when she's about.
Sorry to lower the tone of this discussion.

Fixey said:

As a body builder I was squating 180 - 200kg full drop, as a cyclist I squat 250kg to 90 - 100 degree. My knees are still in good knick (touch wood) but the reason I only go to 90 now is I can load up much larger and explode from a similiar position I would in a sprint. Works for me anyhow. For every "expert" opinion saying one thing on this subject you will find 5 saying he is wrong! only way to find out is to try and see what works for you

discobean7 said:

In a few years I will gladly collect surgical fees from these people after having swapped out their tired old knees for brand new metal ones. I will try not to say "I told you so" as that would just be mean. Thank you again.

i have squated but i never pass kneecap height, only because i know a number of power lifters that are now suffering with poor or damaged knees mainly from over squating.

i always thought that squating was the wrong type of exercise for cycling since at no point during a race would you push pedals both at the same time plus if one leg is stronger than the other usually people make one leg work harder than the other i wouldn't say i was a big squater. i have always prefared to step since really i feel its more beneficial to what i'm doing.

I have a box that allows me to step to around 75 degrees to upright position then down on the other leg alternating during sets with a bar containing some 5-600lbs sometimes more,. i have always thought this to be more suited to improving the muscles strength that i use most. plus i know that both legs are being worked at the same rate and neither is carrying the other.

Carrera said:

I just did something today I imagine could be an alternative to squats - possibly more useful for cycling except, of course, the back doesn't come into play. My training involved climbing probably the biggest hill in my area and I confess it pushed me harder than squats ever had (even the 20 rep sets).
First I had to spend about 90 minutes getting to the hill and then another 15 minutes psyching myself up.
I guess there are some segments of this power climb that may well be around 28% and the preliminary ascent must be around 20% for quite some distance before you get to the hard bit. I confess I was also breathing really really hard at the top.
I'm not sure whether I ought to continue that kind of approach, though, or whether it would be beneficial to push things so hard. I kind of figured I could build climbing strength in my legs as well as stamina but it's rare you encounter hills like that during everyday cycling.
However, I have no hesitation when I say that's definitely the hardest training I've ever done and I'd basically prefer a 20 rep set of squats to climbing that S.O.B. The only consolation is the 50 mph descent when you go back down.

Are you crossing rivington, bellmont to edgerton cause i have a very similar hill on my ride it must last for about a 1000m at 20+% that kills me but the winding road back down to bellmont helps shake that lactic acid off leaving you ready to go back around and do it all over again?

harder than squats 6 sets.

Gears 1'2'3'4'5'6

forget going beyond that i'd die either from lack of oxygen or the pain. its a slow accent but that makes it harder, since you can see the top at all points of the climb, Gears 5-6 you can feel the demand for oxygen as your legs weaken.

No this is a different hill and I recently bought a camera so I can take pics so you guys can tell me your impressions of it. I'll take snaps from the summit and at the bottom going up.
Sure, this is the hardest thing I've ever done and that includes squats. I have to spend half an hour gearing my mind up before I attack it.
First there's a virtual wall in front of you that stretches out of sight. Once you get past that hurdle there's a corner. Even on the corner there's no opportunity to sit down. There's also a risk of hyperventilation once you get round the corner section and get into the 28% stretch. This was the part that destroyed me the first time I attempted it and I also heard an entire peleton broke up on that hill one morning with only one guy making it all the way.
Last time I made it all the way but had this experience where I couldn't seem to get sufficient air into my body at the top. It was like my nose and mouth weren't big enough to supply the demand. These days, of course, I use common sense and if I feel I should stop to control my breathing, I'll pull up and recover.
Last time I rolled back down and saw a tanker in trouble. It was in first gear and nearly couldn't get up there. That made me feel better.

closesupport said:

Are you crossing rivington, bellmont to edgerton cause i have a very similar hill on my ride it must last for about a 1000m at 20+% that kills me but the winding road back down to bellmont helps shake that lactic acid off leaving you ready to go back around and do it all over again?

harder than squats 6 sets.

Gears 1'2'3'4'5'6

forget going beyond that i'd die either from lack of oxygen or the pain. its a slow accent but that makes it harder, since you can see the top at all points of the climb, Gears 5-6 you can feel the demand for oxygen as your legs weaken.