When cyclists squat...

I found this post very interesting and must say I agree with RicStern, but
how about weight training for others goals, not "power"?
For example, many cyclists suffer from back pain due to undeveloped back and abdominal musculature (many because of wrong position on bike too, but this is offtopic). Specific weight traning in winter can help them to prevent or decrease pain in the next seasson.
And how about losing muscle mass during intense seasson in upper body due to low protein diet? Is not good to gain few pounds of muscle mass in upper body just to "cannibalize" it during next seasson ?(the weight problem is irrelevant if you don't have climbs on program over all seasson)..

dvince said:

I found this post very interesting and must say I agree with RicStern, but
how about weight training for others goals, not "power"?
For example, many cyclists suffer from back pain due to undeveloped back and abdominal musculature (many because of wrong position on bike too, but this is offtopic). Specific weight traning in winter can help them to prevent or decrease pain in the next seasson.
And how about losing muscle mass during intense seasson in upper body due to low protein diet? Is not good to gain few pounds of muscle mass in upper body just to "cannibalize" it during next seasson ?(the weight problem is irrelevant if you don't have climbs on program over all seasson)..

while several people quote these points, i'd add: would it not be better to make sure your bike position is correct to solve the issue, rather than trying to 'cure' it with weights. however, where have some sort of injury than would be solved with e.g., weights etc, i would prescribe it

why not eat the right amount of protein? i don't have any data on slovenian diets, but most people in western europe, usa, NZ, Australia, etc. tend to eat way too much protein or at the upper end of the scale.

additionally, you tend to lose what isn't required (i.e., no stimulus = atrophy of muscles), so you do initially lose some muscles in some people, but that doesn't mean you need to add it back on to lose it again (unless you have other things to do that require that muscle, e.g., you're involved in heavy manual lifting)

ric

Ric,

I generally agree with you but my skiing buddies informed me that I might want to start lifting for other reasons. It turns out that an significant risk factor for ACL injury in skiing (my other sport) is a large strength differential between the thighs and hamstrings. This is an issues for cyclists. So should I work on my hammies to reduce the chance of injury in other sports? I'll generalize even more. What's your opinion of lifting if your are cross training for other sports? Good, bad or it does it depend? ;-)

L

BTW, I just curious as to your opinion for what it's worth....

Lonnie Utah said:

Ric,

I generally agree with you but my skiing buddies informed me that I might want to start lifting for other reasons. It turns out that an significant risk factor for ACL injury in skiing (my other sport) is a large strength differential between the thighs and hamstrings. This is an issues for cyclists. So should I work on my hammies to reduce the chance of injury in other sports? I'll generalize even more. What's your opinion of lifting if your are cross training for other sports? Good, bad or it does it depend? ;-)

L

BTW, I just curious as to your opinion for what it's worth....

skiing may well be different, and may require strength training for some aspects (and may also depend on the type of skiing e.g., downhill versus XC). however, as i've never skied, don't know anyone that has 'properly', etc i just can't make any valid opinion about it. sorry

ric

Ric,

No worries. I think that with skiing the most import aspects of strength/conditioning is core strength, not leg strength. This type of strength can be trained without weight and would most likely (correct me if I'm wrong) be beneficial to a cyclist. As to not hijack this thread, I'll leave it at that.

Lonnie Utah said:

Ric,

No worries. I think that with skiing the most import aspects of strength/conditioning is core strength, not leg strength. This type of strength can be trained without weight and would most likely (correct me if I'm wrong) be beneficial to a cyclist. As to not hijack this thread, I'll leave it at that.

i don't believe it's beneficial or needed. supporting yourself on the bike is really low force... and people ride with broken bones in their upper body (it's doesn't require huge force or even moderate forces to 'steady' yourself)

ric

Lonnie Utah said:

Ric,

I generally agree with you but my skiing buddies informed me that I might want to start lifting for other reasons. It turns out that an significant risk factor for ACL injury in skiing (my other sport) is a large strength differential between the thighs and hamstrings. This is an issues for cyclists. So should I work on my hammies to reduce the chance of injury in other sports? I'll generalize even more. What's your opinion of lifting if your are cross training for other sports? Good, bad or it does it depend? ;-)

L

BTW, I just curious as to your opinion for what it's worth....

Just thought I'd jump in here because this is a complex issue, especially the knee. The same muscles that flex and extend the joint also contribute to stabilizing the joint. Thing is "how you train" the muscles effects how they perform as stabilizer. There is more to it then just strength imbalance, hence the buzz with proprioception in the general fitness industry. Not the forum for this discussion, can send you info if you want it.

There was a skiier in my gym over in Russia. He was very tall, about 6 feet five, but I recall he was very good at squats, given his height. I never asked him why he did squats specifically but over in Russia there was a tendency to do skiing. Most girls would go in for tennis and spent a lot of time on the court.

ric_stern/RST said:

skiing may well be different, and may require strength training for some aspects (and may also depend on the type of skiing e.g., downhill versus XC). however, as i've never skied, don't know anyone that has 'properly', etc i just can't make any valid opinion about it. sorry

ric

Ric, I found the original passage that triggered my original comments so maybe it will help you all to understand what I was driving at. Here is your own comment:

[QUOTE
"you did. you argued for weight gain being beneficial as it would increase power and performance."

Here's the (rather dated) passage that I'll now quote. Here they quote Indurains' weight as being far less than 90 k.g. Either the magazine article I read was wrong about Indurain's weight or they may have been referring to his weight when he first started riding (one magazine cited him at 90 k.g. during some point in his career).

"A final concern is Indurain's weight. For most of us, this would mean
fretting about the effects of extra "ballast". But Miguel is
reportedly concerned that his current weight, which has fallen to 77.5
kilos, may be several kilos to light for optimal power output."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/results/archives/oct95/13_10.html

The above suggests that Indurain felt his optimum weight needed to be higher than his current 77.5 kilos. So, what I had attempted to get across is that I have felt the same way over the issue of weight. You always hear about people trying to lose weight but it's rare to make any mention of weight gain being an asset to performance.

Myself, if my weight drops to a certain level, I tend to get joint pains and feel less effective. Diets especially trigger joint pains when I'm riding.

Of course, there is no mention of Indurain using weights in order to gain his desired weight (maybe he was seeking 80 k.g. total) so I'm assuming he may have consumed more calories at the time.

why do you have this fixation with muscle? cycling performance, in terms of the events/riders you often talk about (e.g., TdF/LA) is limited by cardiovascular and metabolic issues.

most/all age gender and mass matched healthy individuals can generate the same power on average as elite cyclists. maintaining that power for the same period is *the* issue and that's a cardiovascular and metabolic problem not a "how big should my muscles be" problem.

don't other astronaughts do this too?

all the pros chose their parents wisely

ric[/QUOTE]

I seem to have beaten my back pain via hyper-extensions. I had chronic pain for well over a year. The hyper-extension involves lying on a bench so your navel hangs over the bench as you lie face down. You lower yourself down to the floor and then lift your torso back up again. I do about 20 reps at a time.
Now the problem I have is a slight hernia but I don't know if there are any exercises that might help me (the doctor ruled out surgery at this point). The hernia affects me more psychologically than the back pain did.

dvince said:

I found this post very interesting and must say I agree with RicStern, but
how about weight training for others goals, not "power"?
For example, many cyclists suffer from back pain due to undeveloped back and abdominal musculature (many because of wrong position on bike too, but this is offtopic). Specific weight traning in winter can help them to prevent or decrease pain in the next seasson.
And how about losing muscle mass during intense seasson in upper body due to low protein diet? Is not good to gain few pounds of muscle mass in upper body just to "cannibalize" it during next seasson ?(the weight problem is irrelevant if you don't have climbs on program over all seasson)..

I had 5 knee surgeries in high school, after sustaining and ACL tear from freestyle skiing. While the idea of a strength differential between hams and quads perhaps is a risk factor for acl injury, its quite minor compared to the largest risk factor for acl injury: foot in a fixed position relative to a knee joint trying to rotate, aka: skiing, playing football, etc. It's important to strengthen both your quads and hams if you ski, and squats do it all, with some leg curls and extensions. Reduce the release force requirements of your ski bindings to the minimum you need to handle the g forces in your turns if you also want to minimize acl tear risk factors. Or snowboard, where there is a much less chance of lower extremity injury compared to skiing. Unless the board itself breaks (low probability) your feet and knees will unlikely experience extreme hyperextension while in a twisted positions (this is the major cause of ACL tear).

Since the five knee surgeries from when i was 17 to 18 years old, here is what I have done athletically: Left UCLA moved to Sun valley Idaho, mountain biked, hiked, lifted etc for 2 years, Snowboarded around the USA, sponsored by Mistral in the early 90s, went back to college on scholarship player in tennis at Div II level, then ranked in the top 2 in the Men's open division southern california tennis. I learned to deadlift and squat at my second college. At one time I squatted 315 for 20 reps, full deep squats very butt to heal.

I will say I have some direct experience from severe joint injury, to optimal strength and conditioning, starting with an athletic (sport ballistic) injury. It's important to note that the weight room is should be non ballistic, and designed to minimize injury, sports are somewhat less risk free. Today I am 44. Yesterday I did my H.I.T (high intensity training) weight workout that begins with deadlift, progresses through full squats and all other body lifts. This morning I jumped on my mtn bike, road a few miles gaining 1000 feet in elevation, watched the sunrise, road home. This morning I will play tennis for 2 hours with a training partner who playes college tennis currently. I will probably swim a bit afterwards as I have been free diving for kelp off of the so cal coast lately and I am interested in that. I have zero knee pain, full range of motion, very thick musculature, excellent flexibility, not just for my age, but for anyone's age. I am not just lucky, this is the results of proper information, and proper incremental training.

Basically I said all that so you will positively digest the following statments:

When given the proper training, nutrients and rest, the body heals. If one desires superior condition, the process is the same, you just need to learn more but still apply it incrementally. Deep squats are no problem at any weight if you start your deep squat training with a broomstick on your lats and a mirror to observe your form. I increase the weight by 1% when I increase the weight, this almost always takes small weight less than 2.5 pounds unless you are squatting 500 pounds, which most don't do. There is a problem with deceleration when you do less than a full squat that transfers all of the force to the knee, usually people are doing these wayy too fast. In a full squat good squatters typically lower very slowly and this is probably less stressful than the former method. You need stress, however, to develop strength. Just not more than your body can handle at any one time. Not the kind of stress that makes injury probable.

Nutrition: you must develop the collagen in your body. This takes ascorbic acid (or Vitamin C). Humans, guinea pigs and other primates are the only animals that dont produce it in response to growth needs or stress, so this should come from diet or supplementation. Ascorbate is a NECESSARY cofactor in the production of collagen (skin, connective tissue (ligaments and tendons). Without optimal amounts, you have less tensile strength in these areas. NO risk to taking larger amounts. Your optimal need can be established through the bowel tolerance test. Do the research. Anyone studying in medical school will not know this, it's not in their textbooks, it wasn't in the 90s (I was there) and it's even less apparent now. Ascorbic acid also lays the first layers for osteoblast growth and as such in critical for optimal bone strength at ligament attachment sites.

Biking is tremendously beneficial for leg strength and size. 90 rpms 100 rpms? not necessary. do what is comfortable lower rpms will require more torque from your knees and hips (glutes) and you will see commensurate size increases. Combining with squats is amazing. I speak from direct experience from the most heinous of injury and surgeries to what I consider optimal physicality. And almost 30 years later, the process and results are just as successful. I did get a shoulder injury from tennis once and sprained my wrist snowboarding once, but no knee injuries. I believe anyone with an open mind and who has learned how to train incrementally, emphasizing process over results, can do this. I am not lucky, I learned all of this. I hope many people benefit from my post.

Quoted post said:

Originally Posted by Collagenation [IMG]/img/forum/go_quote.gif[/IMG]

Nutrition: you must develop the collagen in your body. This takes ascorbic acid (or Vitamin C). Humans, guinea pigs and other primates are the only animals that dont produce it in response to growth needs or stress, so this should come from diet or supplementation. Ascorbate is a NECESSARY cofactor in the production of collagen (skin, connective tissue (ligaments and tendons). Without optimal amounts, you have less tensile strength in these areas. NO risk to taking larger amounts. Your optimal need can be established through the bowel tolerance test. Do the research. Anyone studying in medical school will not know this, it's not in their textbooks, it wasn't in the 90s (I was there) and it's even less apparent now. Ascorbic acid also lays the first layers for osteoblast growth and as such in critical for optimal bone strength at ligament attachment sites.

By bowel tolerance test do you mean the amount of ascorbate before the onset of diarrhea? If large amounts induce diarrhea wouldn't there be some risk at the very least due to secondary effects, i.e dehydration, etc.?

Hey Collagenation! When it comes to cycling, nutrition plays a crucial role in performance. Thanks for sharing the importance of collagen in our bodies. It's true that ascorbic acid (Vitamin C) is essential for collagen production. Good point about getting it through diet or supplementation. Let's make sure we have optimal amounts for better strength. Keep pushing those pedals!