What the hell?

http://www.endex.com/gf/buildings/bbridge/bbopeninginvite.jpg

<[email hidden]> wrote: --(clip)it looked like 36 spokes, but there
were still only 12 brass

Quoted message said:

dinguses when 18 would be needed to tie-and-solder three dozen spokes.
(clip)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Fascinating. It looks like there are 24 full-length spokes, joined in pairs
near the hub by these brass disks. Each disk adds a shorter third spoke to
the pair. (The third spoke does not go to the hub.) Is there some way that
the third spoke adds tension to the other two? It seems to me it is pulling
the wrong way to do that. Another question: why are the brass disks not
evenly spaced?

Dodge is a Dodge brothers scion?

datakoll aka gene daniels said:

Dodge is a Dodge brothers scion?

No, Scion is a Toyota marque.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

Leo Lichtman said:

<[email hidden]> wrote: --(clip)it looked like 36 spokes, but there
were still only 12 brass

Quoted message said:

dinguses when 18 would be needed to tie-and-solder three dozen spokes.
(clip)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Fascinating. It looks like there are 24 full-length spokes, joined in pairs
near the hub by these brass disks. Each disk adds a shorter third spoke to
the pair. (The third spoke does not go to the hub.) Is there some way that
the third spoke adds tension to the other two? It seems to me it is pulling
the wrong way to do that. Another question: why are the brass disks not
evenly spaced?

Dear Leo,

I have no idea what the design is supposed to do.

I think that the brass (?) disks are actually evenly spaced, but the
camera angle makes them look a little asymmetrical, just as even the
faint camera angle in other photos often makes it hard to tell at a
glance whether an antique wheel is radial or cross-laced.

In this photo, it's hard to tell whehter a disk is on the near or the
far side of the wheel, leading to optical illusions.

Things are further confused by the lines of the upper and lower chain,
the chainstays, the faint pinstripes on the chainstays, the four
fender stays, and the weird pair of lower cross-frame wire struts.

Look very carefully at the four silver fender stays to see how the
camera angle distorts perfectly symmetrical things.

There were at least two similar spoke-fans back then. Here's a huge
example, the 1882 Oldreive thing-a-ma-bob:

http://www.imageenvision.com/photo/0003-0702-1421-0815.html

http://www.elektrischkite.com/Bicycle/Womens/Assets/oldreive_trike.gif

In the Oldreive contraption, the fanned-out spokes served a practical
purpose, namely leaving enough room for the rider to climb inside the
wheel, but they fan out from a single spoke attached to the hub.

Here's a 1887 patent illustration of a 2x3 fan on a highwheeler:

http://books.google.com/books?id=rZQ1AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=cycling+art+energy+locomotion&as_brr=1&ei=5VotR-XvL5SysgOdjbS6CQ#PPA298,M1

Regrettably, Charles Duryea wrote in his patent 364231 that "the
structure of the hub, spokes, and rim will not be claimed in this
case, as they will form the subject of another application by me for
patent thereon."

http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US000364231&PageNum=3&IDKey=6CAD66CE3B50&HomeUrl=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526d=PALL%2526p=1%2526u=%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r=1%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526s1=0364231.PN.%2526OS=PN/0364231%2526RS=PN/0364231

You can't search patents that old except by number, so I don't know if
Duryea ever did file a patent application that explained what the hell
his 2x3 fan-spoke design was supposed to do. He abandoned bicycles and
became an early car builder:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Duryea

Charles was born during the Civil War in 1862, patented his
highwheeler breakaway handlebars at 25 in 1887, and died at 76 in
1938.

His brother, Frank, was born in 1869, worked with him in their car
business before the turn of the century, and died at 98 in 1967.

I'm always interested in such long-lived types, since one of my
grandfathers was born in 1888, shot rabbits as a boy in what is now
Beverly Hills, visited France as an armed tourist in 1918, and died
just short of 102, having seen the Wright brothers' invention turn
into the 747.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

DURYEA fled to Reading, seeking help to compensate for his inability
to actually manufacture the contraption. Reading wa a city state
filled with engineers, manufacturing, coal, farms, water... a huge
railroad yard. Machine shop up the road built early V-8 ICs. My guess.
I used to run his hillclimb: going down.
Look thru the jewelry collections for a bulge in suspension related
devices around the time the BB was opened.

If you don't care for fan mail...no problem.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

So is that a 24, 36, or 60 spoke rear wheel?

Teenage Mutant Crow's Foot spoking. It's a 2/3 cross spoking.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tom Sherman said:

datakoll aka gene daniels said:

Dodge is a Dodge brothers scion?

No, Scion is a Toyota marque.

That's a dodge.

Quoted message said:

I just looked at the inside cover of Herlihy's "The Bicycle" and saw
that the 1896 Waverly Belle's most interesting feature had been
hidden:

http://i10.tinypic.com/8101uuh.jpg

At first I wondered whether those gorgeous brass (?) disks on the rear
spokes were elaborate tie-and-solder fittings or just decorative
buttons.

But they aren't tie-and-solder, and they aren't decorative!

I counted them and found only a dozen disks, not nearly enough to
connect the crossings of what looked like 36 spokes or so.

So I counted the stupid spokes, thinking that maybe there were fewer
spokes than I thought.

Nope--it looked like 36 spokes, but there were still only 12 brass
dinguses when 18 would be needed to tie-and-solder three dozen spokes.

Finally I _looked_ at the damn things.

Have another look yourself.

Hint: count the spokes coming out of any dingus in _all_ directions.

Now do you see how weird that rear wheel is?

Apparently, Herlihy didn't notice how odd the wheel is:

"Waverly Belle, circa 1896, a lady's model by the Indiana Bicycle
Company, with a steel frame and wooden handlebars, fender, and chain
guard. (Pryor Dodge Collection)"

So is that a 24, 36, or 60 spoke rear wheel?

Incidentally, the front radial wheel is normal--as long as you
consider 30 spokes normal.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

My vote is for calling it a 60. Unless you want to call the short
sections fractional!

Joseph

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

I just looked at the inside cover of Herlihy's "The Bicycle" and saw
that the 1896 Waverly Belle's most interesting feature had been
hidden:

Quoted message said:

http://i10.tinypic.com/8101uuh.jpg

Quoted message said:

At first I wondered whether those gorgeous brass (?) disks on the rear
spokes were elaborate tie-and-solder fittings or just decorative
buttons.

Quoted message said:

But they aren't tie-and-solder, and they aren't decorative!

Quoted message said:

I counted them and found only a dozen disks, not nearly enough to
connect the crossings of what looked like 36 spokes or so.

Quoted message said:

So I counted the stupid spokes, thinking that maybe there were fewer
spokes than I thought.

Quoted message said:

Nope--it looked like 36 spokes, but there were still only 12 brass
dinguses when 18 would be needed to tie-and-solder three dozen spokes.

Quoted message said:

Finally I _looked_ at the damn things.

Quoted message said:

Have another look yourself.

Quoted message said:

Hint: count the spokes coming out of any dingus in _all_ directions.

Quoted message said:

Now do you see how weird that rear wheel is?

Quoted message said:

Apparently, Herlihy didn't notice how odd the wheel is:

Quoted message said:

"Waverly Belle, circa 1896, a lady's model by the Indiana Bicycle
Company, with a steel frame and wooden handlebars, fender, and chain
guard. (Pryor Dodge Collection)"

Quoted message said:

So is that a 24, 36, or 60 spoke rear wheel?

Quoted message said:

Incidentally, the front radial wheel is normal--as long as you
consider 30 spokes normal.

Is that a 36 spoke wheel with a star-shaped flange? The discs may be
brass but might just be painted-to-match, can't tell really. Although
they may aid wheel assembly, I doubt they are doing anything functional
in a tensioned wheel. Decorative perhaps but not functional. What am I
missing?

--
Andrew Muziwww.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

The hubs have only 24 holes, but the rims have 36. The discs have 2
spokes going to the hub, and 3 going to the rim.

Joseph

Quoted message said:

I just looked at the inside cover of Herlihy's "The Bicycle" and saw
that the 1896 Waverly Belle's most interesting feature had been
hidden:

http://i10.tinypic.com/8101uuh.jpg

At first I wondered whether those gorgeous brass (?) disks on the rear
spokes were elaborate tie-and-solder fittings or just decorative
buttons.

But they aren't tie-and-solder, and they aren't decorative!

I counted them and found only a dozen disks, not nearly enough to
connect the crossings of what looked like 36 spokes or so.

So I counted the stupid spokes, thinking that maybe there were fewer
spokes than I thought.

Nope--it looked like 36 spokes, but there were still only 12 brass
dinguses when 18 would be needed to tie-and-solder three dozen spokes.

Finally I _looked_ at the damn things.

Have another look yourself.

Hint: count the spokes coming out of any dingus in _all_ directions.

Now do you see how weird that rear wheel is?

Apparently, Herlihy didn't notice how odd the wheel is:

"Waverly Belle, circa 1896, a lady's model by the Indiana Bicycle
Company, with a steel frame and wooden handlebars, fender, and chain
guard. (Pryor Dodge Collection)"

So is that a 24, 36, or 60 spoke rear wheel?

Incidentally, the front radial wheel is normal--as long as you
consider 30 spokes normal.

Is that a 36 spoke wheel with a star-shaped flange? The discs may be
brass but might just be painted-to-match, can't tell really. Although
they may aid wheel assembly, I doubt they are doing anything functional
in a tensioned wheel. Decorative perhaps but not functional. What am I
missing?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:01:17 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I just looked at the inside cover of Herlihy's "The Bicycle" and saw
that the 1896 Waverly Belle's most interesting feature had been
hidden:

http://i10.tinypic.com/8101uuh.jpg

At first I wondered whether those gorgeous brass (?) disks on the rear
spokes were elaborate tie-and-solder fittings or just decorative
buttons.

But they aren't tie-and-solder, and they aren't decorative!

I counted them and found only a dozen disks, not nearly enough to
connect the crossings of what looked like 36 spokes or so.

So I counted the stupid spokes, thinking that maybe there were fewer
spokes than I thought.

Nope--it looked like 36 spokes, but there were still only 12 brass
dinguses when 18 would be needed to tie-and-solder three dozen spokes.

Finally I _looked_ at the damn things.

Have another look yourself.

Hint: count the spokes coming out of any dingus in _all_ directions.

Now do you see how weird that rear wheel is?

Apparently, Herlihy didn't notice how odd the wheel is:

"Waverly Belle, circa 1896, a lady's model by the Indiana Bicycle
Company, with a steel frame and wooden handlebars, fender, and chain
guard. (Pryor Dodge Collection)"

So is that a 24, 36, or 60 spoke rear wheel?

Incidentally, the front radial wheel is normal--as long as you
consider 30 spokes normal.

Is that a 36 spoke wheel with a star-shaped flange? The discs may be
brass but might just be painted-to-match, can't tell really. Although
they may aid wheel assembly, I doubt they are doing anything functional
in a tensioned wheel. Decorative perhaps but not functional. What am I
missing?

Dear Andrew,

Think tinker-toy.

Two short spokes go from the hub to the little disks. Then three
spokes fan out from the little disks to the rim.

We use brass spoke nipples, so I suppose that brass doohickeys would
works, but you could be right--maybe they're painted steel?

Like you, I wonder what I'm missing. An old claim for tie-and-solder
is that the tied crossings acted as a sort of pseudo-flange and made
the wheel stronger, so maybe this weird 2x3 tinker-toy arrangement was
supposed to make a stronger rear wheel.

(Yeah, right, strong enough to withstand the furious power of a lady
wearing skirts.)

Charles Duryea showed the same spoke arrangement in an 1888 patent:

http://books.google.com/books?id=rZQ1AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=cycling+art+energy+locomotion&as_brr=1&ei=5VotR-XvL5SysgOdjbS6CQ#PPA298,M1

But if you look up the patent, it's for the highwheeler's detachable
handlebar, not for the weird spoke arrangement. Duryea said that he'd
get around to explaining and patenting the spoke business later:

http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US000364231&PageNum=3&IDKey=6CAD66CE3B50&HomeUrl=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526d=PALL%2526p=1%2526u=%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r=1%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526s1=0364231.PN.%2526OS=PN/0364231%2526RS=PN/0364231

Old patents can't be searched, so I don't know if Duryea ever did
apply for a 2x3 spoke-fan patent before he switched to designing and
building cars.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:01:17 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I just looked at the inside cover of Herlihy's "The Bicycle" and saw
that the 1896 Waverly Belle's most interesting feature had been
hidden:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://i10.tinypic.com/8101uuh.jpg

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

At first I wondered whether those gorgeous brass (?) disks on the rear
spokes were elaborate tie-and-solder fittings or just decorative
buttons.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But they aren't tie-and-solder, and they aren't decorative!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I counted them and found only a dozen disks, not nearly enough to
connect the crossings of what looked like 36 spokes or so.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So I counted the stupid spokes, thinking that maybe there were fewer
spokes than I thought.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Nope--it looked like 36 spokes, but there were still only 12 brass
dinguses when 18 would be needed to tie-and-solder three dozen spokes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Finally I _looked_ at the damn things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Have another look yourself.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hint: count the spokes coming out of any dingus in _all_ directions.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now do you see how weird that rear wheel is?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Apparently, Herlihy didn't notice how odd the wheel is:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Waverly Belle, circa 1896, a lady's model by the Indiana Bicycle
Company, with a steel frame and wooden handlebars, fender, and chain
guard. (Pryor Dodge Collection)"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So is that a 24, 36, or 60 spoke rear wheel?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Incidentally, the front radial wheel is normal--as long as you
consider 30 spokes normal.

Quoted message said:

Is that a 36 spoke wheel with a star-shaped flange? The discs may be
brass but might just be painted-to-match, can't tell really. Although
they may aid wheel assembly, I doubt they are doing anything functional
in a tensioned wheel. Decorative perhaps but not functional. What am I
missing?

Dear Andrew,

Think tinker-toy.

Two short spokes go from the hub to the little disks. Then three
spokes fan out from the little disks to the rim.

We use brass spoke nipples, so I suppose that brass doohickeys would
works, but you could be right--maybe they're painted steel?

Like you, I wonder what I'm missing. An old claim for tie-and-solder
is that the tied crossings acted as a sort of pseudo-flange and made
the wheel stronger, so maybe this weird 2x3 tinker-toy arrangement was
supposed to make a stronger rear wheel.

(Yeah, right, strong enough to withstand the furious power of a lady
wearing skirts.)

Charles Duryea showed the same spoke arrangement in an 1888 patent:

http://books.google.com/books?id=rZQ1AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=...

But if you look up the patent, it's for the highwheeler's detachable
handlebar, not for the weird spoke arrangement. Duryea said that he'd
get around to explaining and patenting the spoke business later:

http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US000364231&PageNum=3&IDKey=6CAD6...

Old patents can't be searched, so I don't know if Duryea ever did
apply for a 2x3 spoke-fan patent before he switched to designing and
building cars.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Maybe they wanted lots of spokes without weakening the hub with lots
of closely spaced holes.

Joseph

On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:07:25 -0800 (PST),

Quoted post said:

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:01:17 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:
> I just looked at the inside cover of Herlihy's "The Bicycle" and saw
> that the 1896 Waverly Belle's most interesting feature had been
> hidden:

Quoted message said:

> http://i10.tinypic.com/8101uuh.jpg

Quoted message said:

> At first I wondered whether those gorgeous brass (?) disks on the rear
> spokes were elaborate tie-and-solder fittings or just decorative
> buttons.

Quoted message said:

> But they aren't tie-and-solder, and they aren't decorative!

Quoted message said:

> I counted them and found only a dozen disks, not nearly enough to
> connect the crossings of what looked like 36 spokes or so.

Quoted message said:

> So I counted the stupid spokes, thinking that maybe there were fewer
> spokes than I thought.

Quoted message said:

> Nope--it looked like 36 spokes, but there were still only 12 brass
> dinguses when 18 would be needed to tie-and-solder three dozen spokes.

Quoted message said:

> Finally I _looked_ at the damn things.

Quoted message said:

> Have another look yourself.

Quoted message said:

> Hint: count the spokes coming out of any dingus in _all_ directions.

Quoted message said:

> Now do you see how weird that rear wheel is?

Quoted message said:

> Apparently, Herlihy didn't notice how odd the wheel is:

Quoted message said:

> "Waverly Belle, circa 1896, a lady's model by the Indiana Bicycle
> Company, with a steel frame and wooden handlebars, fender, and chain
> guard. (Pryor Dodge Collection)"

Quoted message said:

> So is that a 24, 36, or 60 spoke rear wheel?

Quoted message said:

> Incidentally, the front radial wheel is normal--as long as you
> consider 30 spokes normal.

Quoted message said:

Is that a 36 spoke wheel with a star-shaped flange? The discs may be
brass but might just be painted-to-match, can't tell really. Although
they may aid wheel assembly, I doubt they are doing anything functional
in a tensioned wheel. Decorative perhaps but not functional. What am I
missing?

Dear Andrew,

Think tinker-toy.

Two short spokes go from the hub to the little disks. Then three
spokes fan out from the little disks to the rim.

We use brass spoke nipples, so I suppose that brass doohickeys would
works, but you could be right--maybe they're painted steel?

Like you, I wonder what I'm missing. An old claim for tie-and-solder
is that the tied crossings acted as a sort of pseudo-flange and made
the wheel stronger, so maybe this weird 2x3 tinker-toy arrangement was
supposed to make a stronger rear wheel.

(Yeah, right, strong enough to withstand the furious power of a lady
wearing skirts.)

Charles Duryea showed the same spoke arrangement in an 1888 patent:

http://books.google.com/books?id=rZQ1AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=...

But if you look up the patent, it's for the highwheeler's detachable
handlebar, not for the weird spoke arrangement. Duryea said that he'd
get around to explaining and patenting the spoke business later:

http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US000364231&PageNum=3&IDKey=6CAD6...

Old patents can't be searched, so I don't know if Duryea ever did
apply for a 2x3 spoke-fan patent before he switched to designing and
building cars.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Maybe they wanted lots of spokes without weakening the hub with lots
of closely spaced holes.

Joseph

Dear Joseph,

Maybe, but if you look closely at the picture, the hub consists of
little arms--they're easiest to see just above the axle:

http://i10.tinypic.com/8101uuh.jpg

One hub arm is clearly visible pointing toward about 11 o'clock, and
the rear fender stay runs right over the opposite hub arm.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:07:25 -0800 (PST),

Quoted post said:

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:01:17 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>
wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>[email hidden] wrote:
>> I just looked at the inside cover of Herlihy's "The Bicycle" and saw
>> that the 1896 Waverly Belle's most interesting feature had been
>> hidden:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> http://i10.tinypic.com/8101uuh.jpg

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> At first I wondered whether those gorgeous brass (?) disks on the rear
>> spokes were elaborate tie-and-solder fittings or just decorative
>> buttons.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> But they aren't tie-and-solder, and they aren't decorative!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> I counted them and found only a dozen disks, not nearly enough to
>> connect the crossings of what looked like 36 spokes or so.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> So I counted the stupid spokes, thinking that maybe there were fewer
>> spokes than I thought.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Nope--it looked like 36 spokes, but there were still only 12 brass
>> dinguses when 18 would be needed to tie-and-solder three dozen spokes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Finally I _looked_ at the damn things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Have another look yourself.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Hint: count the spokes coming out of any dingus in _all_ directions.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Now do you see how weird that rear wheel is?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Apparently, Herlihy didn't notice how odd the wheel is:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> "Waverly Belle, circa 1896, a lady's model by the Indiana Bicycle
>> Company, with a steel frame and wooden handlebars, fender, and chain
>> guard. (Pryor Dodge Collection)"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> So is that a 24, 36, or 60 spoke rear wheel?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Incidentally, the front radial wheel is normal--as long as you
>> consider 30 spokes normal.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Is that a 36 spoke wheel with a star-shaped flange? The discs may be
>brass but might just be painted-to-match, can't tell really. Although
>they may aid wheel assembly, I doubt they are doing anything functional
>in a tensioned wheel. Decorative perhaps but not functional. What am I
>missing?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dear Andrew,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Think tinker-toy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Two short spokes go from the hub to the little disks. Then three
spokes fan out from the little disks to the rim.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We use brass spoke nipples, so I suppose that brass doohickeys would
works, but you could be right--maybe they're painted steel?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Like you, I wonder what I'm missing. An old claim for tie-and-solder
is that the tied crossings acted as a sort of pseudo-flange and made
the wheel stronger, so maybe this weird 2x3 tinker-toy arrangement was
supposed to make a stronger rear wheel.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(Yeah, right, strong enough to withstand the furious power of a lady
wearing skirts.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Charles Duryea showed the same spoke arrangement in an 1888 patent:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://books.google.com/books?id=rZQ1AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But if you look up the patent, it's for the highwheeler's detachable
handlebar, not for the weird spoke arrangement. Duryea said that he'd
get around to explaining and patenting the spoke business later:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US000364231&PageNum=3&IDKey=6CAD6...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Old patents can't be searched, so I don't know if Duryea ever did
apply for a 2x3 spoke-fan patent before he switched to designing and
building cars.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cheers,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Maybe they wanted lots of spokes without weakening the hub with lots
of closely spaced holes.

Quoted message said:

Joseph

Dear Joseph,

Maybe, but if you look closely at the picture, the hub consists of
little arms--they're easiest to see just above the axle:

http://i10.tinypic.com/8101uuh.jpg

One hub arm is clearly visible pointing toward about 11 o'clock, and
the rear fender stay runs right over the opposite hub arm.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Yes, they appear to be stamped steel for a straight-pull type
arrangement. Maybe that screw hold on the cog? The spacing between the
holes is still greater than if all 36 spokes went to the hub, even
with the weird star shape. I'm not suggesting this idea actually works
in strengthening the hub, just suggesting what I think the intent was.

My favorite part of the bike the adjsutable seat tube angle. Or is it
just the world's first soft-ride?

Joseph

On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:34:49 -0800 (PST),

Quoted post said:

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:07:25 -0800 (PST),

Quoted post said:

On Dec 8, 9:10 pm, [email hidden] wrote:
> On Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:01:17 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>
> wrote:

Quoted message said:

> >[email hidden] wrote:
> >> I just looked at the inside cover of Herlihy's "The Bicycle" and saw
> >> that the 1896 Waverly Belle's most interesting feature had been
> >> hidden:

Quoted message said:

> >> http://i10.tinypic.com/8101uuh.jpg

Quoted message said:

> >> At first I wondered whether those gorgeous brass (?) disks on the rear
> >> spokes were elaborate tie-and-solder fittings or just decorative
> >> buttons.

Quoted message said:

> >> But they aren't tie-and-solder, and they aren't decorative!

Quoted message said:

> >> I counted them and found only a dozen disks, not nearly enough to
> >> connect the crossings of what looked like 36 spokes or so.

Quoted message said:

> >> So I counted the stupid spokes, thinking that maybe there were fewer
> >> spokes than I thought.

Quoted message said:

> >> Nope--it looked like 36 spokes, but there were still only 12 brass
> >> dinguses when 18 would be needed to tie-and-solder three dozen spokes.

Quoted message said:

> >> Finally I _looked_ at the damn things.

Quoted message said:

> >> Have another look yourself.

Quoted message said:

> >> Hint: count the spokes coming out of any dingus in _all_ directions.

Quoted message said:

> >> Now do you see how weird that rear wheel is?

Quoted message said:

> >> Apparently, Herlihy didn't notice how odd the wheel is:

Quoted message said:

> >> "Waverly Belle, circa 1896, a lady's model by the Indiana Bicycle
> >> Company, with a steel frame and wooden handlebars, fender, and chain
> >> guard. (Pryor Dodge Collection)"

Quoted message said:

> >> So is that a 24, 36, or 60 spoke rear wheel?

Quoted message said:

> >> Incidentally, the front radial wheel is normal--as long as you
> >> consider 30 spokes normal.

Quoted message said:

> >Is that a 36 spoke wheel with a star-shaped flange? The discs may be
> >brass but might just be painted-to-match, can't tell really. Although
> >they may aid wheel assembly, I doubt they are doing anything functional
> >in a tensioned wheel. Decorative perhaps but not functional. What am I
> >missing?

Quoted message said:

> Dear Andrew,

Quoted message said:

> Think tinker-toy.

Quoted message said:

> Two short spokes go from the hub to the little disks. Then three
> spokes fan out from the little disks to the rim.

Quoted message said:

> We use brass spoke nipples, so I suppose that brass doohickeys would
> works, but you could be right--maybe they're painted steel?

Quoted message said:

> Like you, I wonder what I'm missing. An old claim for tie-and-solder
> is that the tied crossings acted as a sort of pseudo-flange and made
> the wheel stronger, so maybe this weird 2x3 tinker-toy arrangement was
> supposed to make a stronger rear wheel.

Quoted message said:

> (Yeah, right, strong enough to withstand the furious power of a lady
> wearing skirts.)

Quoted message said:

> Charles Duryea showed the same spoke arrangement in an 1888 patent:

Quoted message said:

>http://books.google.com/books?id=rZQ1AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=...

Quoted message said:

> But if you look up the patent, it's for the highwheeler's detachable
> handlebar, not for the weird spoke arrangement. Duryea said that he'd
> get around to explaining and patenting the spoke business later:

Quoted message said:

>http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US000364231&PageNum=3&IDKey=6CAD6...

Quoted message said:

> Old patents can't be searched, so I don't know if Duryea ever did
> apply for a 2x3 spoke-fan patent before he switched to designing and
> building cars.

Quoted message said:

> Cheers,

Quoted message said:

> Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Maybe they wanted lots of spokes without weakening the hub with lots
of closely spaced holes.

Quoted message said:

Joseph

Dear Joseph,

Maybe, but if you look closely at the picture, the hub consists of
little arms--they're easiest to see just above the axle:

http://i10.tinypic.com/8101uuh.jpg

One hub arm is clearly visible pointing toward about 11 o'clock, and
the rear fender stay runs right over the opposite hub arm.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Yes, they appear to be stamped steel for a straight-pull type
arrangement. Maybe that screw hold on the cog? The spacing between the
holes is still greater than if all 36 spokes went to the hub, even
with the weird star shape. I'm not suggesting this idea actually works
in strengthening the hub, just suggesting what I think the intent was.

My favorite part of the bike the adjsutable seat tube angle. Or is it
just the world's first soft-ride?

Joseph

Dear Joseph,

The seat springing and adjustment are typical of 1890s bicycle seats.

Back then, riders routinely faced much rougher roads than we do, so
they appreciated even crude suspension.

They also appreciated more adjustment. The bicycles of that era
weren't made in the modern plethora of frame sizes, with 56 and 57 cm
versions, so you adjusted the seat, the handlebar, and even the pedals
to suit. (The cranks often came with slots so that you could move the
pedals closer or farther from the bottom bracket.)

These two oddballs show how much attention our ancestors paid to seat
springing and adjustment:

http://books.google.com/books?id=gFMN3-srupsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=inauthor:archibald+inauthor:sharp&as_brr=1&ei=qK8vR5ezL4GktAPMvqiwCQ#PPA282,M1

Lest you think that they were impractical, here's a photo of Lenz on
his round-the-world trip, next to his Overman Victor safety bike with
front suspension and a seat that defies description:

http://i10.tinypic.com/5ywikhu.jpg

In those days, it was routine to ride down the middle of train tracks
over the cross-ties.

Here's a clear picture of a similar Overman Victor:

http://www.prices4antiques.com/itemsummary/251080.htm

Oh, dear! Look at the way the spokes bend at the front hub on that
page!

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:34:49 -0800 (PST),

Quoted post said:

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:07:25 -0800 (PST),

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"[email hidden]" <[email hidden]> wrote:
>On Dec 8, 9:10 pm, [email hidden] wrote:
>> On Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:01:17 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>
>> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >[email hidden] wrote:
>> >> I just looked at the inside cover of Herlihy's "The Bicycle" and saw
>> >> that the 1896 Waverly Belle's most interesting feature had been
>> >> hidden:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >> http://i10.tinypic.com/8101uuh.jpg

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >> At first I wondered whether those gorgeous brass (?) disks on the rear
>> >> spokes were elaborate tie-and-solder fittings or just decorative
>> >> buttons.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >> But they aren't tie-and-solder, and they aren't decorative!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >> I counted them and found only a dozen disks, not nearly enough to
>> >> connect the crossings of what looked like 36 spokes or so.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >> So I counted the stupid spokes, thinking that maybe there were fewer
>> >> spokes than I thought.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >> Nope--it looked like 36 spokes, but there were still only 12 brass
>> >> dinguses when 18 would be needed to tie-and-solder three dozen spokes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >> Finally I _looked_ at the damn things.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >> Have another look yourself.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >> Hint: count the spokes coming out of any dingus in _all_ directions.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >> Now do you see how weird that rear wheel is?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >> Apparently, Herlihy didn't notice how odd the wheel is:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >> "Waverly Belle, circa 1896, a lady's model by the Indiana Bicycle
>> >> Company, with a steel frame and wooden handlebars, fender, and chain
>> >> guard. (Pryor Dodge Collection)"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >> So is that a 24, 36, or 60 spoke rear wheel?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >> Incidentally, the front radial wheel is normal--as long as you
>> >> consider 30 spokes normal.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> >Is that a 36 spoke wheel with a star-shaped flange? The discs may be
>> >brass but might just be painted-to-match, can't tell really. Although
>> >they may aid wheel assembly, I doubt they are doing anything functional
>> >in a tensioned wheel. Decorative perhaps but not functional. What am I
>> >missing?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Dear Andrew,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Think tinker-toy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Two short spokes go from the hub to the little disks. Then three
>> spokes fan out from the little disks to the rim.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> We use brass spoke nipples, so I suppose that brass doohickeys would
>> works, but you could be right--maybe they're painted steel?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Like you, I wonder what I'm missing. An old claim for tie-and-solder
>> is that the tied crossings acted as a sort of pseudo-flange and made
>> the wheel stronger, so maybe this weird 2x3 tinker-toy arrangement was
>> supposed to make a stronger rear wheel.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> (Yeah, right, strong enough to withstand the furious power of a lady
>> wearing skirts.)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Charles Duryea showed the same spoke arrangement in an 1888 patent:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>http://books.google.com/books?id=rZQ1AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> But if you look up the patent, it's for the highwheeler's detachable
>> handlebar, not for the weird spoke arrangement. Duryea said that he'd
>> get around to explaining and patenting the spoke business later:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US000364231&PageNum=3&IDKey=6CAD6...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Old patents can't be searched, so I don't know if Duryea ever did
>> apply for a 2x3 spoke-fan patent before he switched to designing and
>> building cars.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Cheers,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Maybe they wanted lots of spokes without weakening the hub with lots
>of closely spaced holes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Joseph

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dear Joseph,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe, but if you look closely at the picture, the hub consists of
little arms--they're easiest to see just above the axle:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

http://i10.tinypic.com/8101uuh.jpg

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

One hub arm is clearly visible pointing toward about 11 o'clock, and
the rear fender stay runs right over the opposite hub arm.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Cheers,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Yes, they appear to be stamped steel for a straight-pull type
arrangement. Maybe that screw hold on the cog? The spacing between the
holes is still greater than if all 36 spokes went to the hub, even
with the weird star shape. I'm not suggesting this idea actually works
in strengthening the hub, just suggesting what I think the intent was.

Quoted message said:

My favorite part of the bike the adjsutable seat tube angle. Or is it
just the world's first soft-ride?

Quoted message said:

Joseph

Dear Joseph,

The seat springing and adjustment are typical of 1890s bicycle seats.

I was thinking more about that business below the bottom bracket. Is
it a spring gizmo, or just a turnbuckle of sorts?

Quoted message said:

Back then, riders routinely faced much rougher roads than we do, so
they appreciated even crude suspension.

They also appreciated more adjustment. The bicycles of that era
weren't made in the modern plethora of frame sizes, with 56 and 57 cm
versions, so you adjusted the seat, the handlebar, and even the pedals
to suit. (The cranks often came with slots so that you could move the
pedals closer or farther from the bottom bracket.)

These two oddballs show how much attention our ancestors paid to seat
springing and adjustment:

http://books.google.com/books?id=gFMN3-srupsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=...

Lest you think that they were impractical, here's a photo of Lenz on
his round-the-world trip, next to his Overman Victor safety bike with
front suspension and a seat that defies description:

http://i10.tinypic.com/5ywikhu.jpg

In those days, it was routine to ride down the middle of train tracks
over the cross-ties.

Rails-to-Trails would be proud. On high-wheelers too? I wonder what a
hasty dismount and track clearance under time pressure would have been
like.

Quoted message said:

Here's a clear picture of a similar Overman Victor:

http://www.prices4antiques.com/itemsummary/251080.htm

Oh, dear! Look at the way the spokes bend at the front hub on that
page!

That does not look good. You mean the rear hub, with the brake lever?
The captions are placed in a misleading way. I wonder what sort of
reasoning went into that crazy bend!

Joseph

On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 14:07:03 -0800 (PST),

Quoted post said:

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:34:49 -0800 (PST),

Quoted post said:

On Dec 8, 10:22 pm, [email hidden] wrote:
> On Sat, 8 Dec 2007 13:07:25 -0800 (PST),

Quoted message said:

> "[email hidden]" <[email hidden]> wrote:
> >On Dec 8, 9:10 pm, [email hidden] wrote:
> >> On Sat, 08 Dec 2007 14:01:17 -0600, A Muzi <[email hidden]>
> >> wrote:

Quoted message said:

> >> >[email hidden] wrote:
> >> >> I just looked at the inside cover of Herlihy's "The Bicycle" and saw
> >> >> that the 1896 Waverly Belle's most interesting feature had been
> >> >> hidden:

Quoted message said:

> >> >> http://i10.tinypic.com/8101uuh.jpg

Quoted message said:

> >> >> At first I wondered whether those gorgeous brass (?) disks on the rear
> >> >> spokes were elaborate tie-and-solder fittings or just decorative
> >> >> buttons.

Quoted message said:

> >> >> But they aren't tie-and-solder, and they aren't decorative!

Quoted message said:

> >> >> I counted them and found only a dozen disks, not nearly enough to
> >> >> connect the crossings of what looked like 36 spokes or so.

Quoted message said:

> >> >> So I counted the stupid spokes, thinking that maybe there were fewer
> >> >> spokes than I thought.

Quoted message said:

> >> >> Nope--it looked like 36 spokes, but there were still only 12 brass
> >> >> dinguses when 18 would be needed to tie-and-solder three dozen spokes.

Quoted message said:

> >> >> Finally I _looked_ at the damn things.

Quoted message said:

> >> >> Have another look yourself.

Quoted message said:

> >> >> Hint: count the spokes coming out of any dingus in _all_ directions.

Quoted message said:

> >> >> Now do you see how weird that rear wheel is?

Quoted message said:

> >> >> Apparently, Herlihy didn't notice how odd the wheel is:

Quoted message said:

> >> >> "Waverly Belle, circa 1896, a lady's model by the Indiana Bicycle
> >> >> Company, with a steel frame and wooden handlebars, fender, and chain
> >> >> guard. (Pryor Dodge Collection)"

Quoted message said:

> >> >> So is that a 24, 36, or 60 spoke rear wheel?

Quoted message said:

> >> >> Incidentally, the front radial wheel is normal--as long as you
> >> >> consider 30 spokes normal.

Quoted message said:

> >> >Is that a 36 spoke wheel with a star-shaped flange? The discs may be
> >> >brass but might just be painted-to-match, can't tell really. Although
> >> >they may aid wheel assembly, I doubt they are doing anything functional
> >> >in a tensioned wheel. Decorative perhaps but not functional. What am I
> >> >missing?

Quoted message said:

> >> Dear Andrew,

Quoted message said:

> >> Think tinker-toy.

Quoted message said:

> >> Two short spokes go from the hub to the little disks. Then three
> >> spokes fan out from the little disks to the rim.

Quoted message said:

> >> We use brass spoke nipples, so I suppose that brass doohickeys would
> >> works, but you could be right--maybe they're painted steel?

Quoted message said:

> >> Like you, I wonder what I'm missing. An old claim for tie-and-solder
> >> is that the tied crossings acted as a sort of pseudo-flange and made
> >> the wheel stronger, so maybe this weird 2x3 tinker-toy arrangement was
> >> supposed to make a stronger rear wheel.

Quoted message said:

> >> (Yeah, right, strong enough to withstand the furious power of a lady
> >> wearing skirts.)

Quoted message said:

> >> Charles Duryea showed the same spoke arrangement in an 1888 patent:

Quoted message said:

> >>http://books.google.com/books?id=rZQ1AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=...

Quoted message said:

> >> But if you look up the patent, it's for the highwheeler's detachable
> >> handlebar, not for the weird spoke arrangement. Duryea said that he'd
> >> get around to explaining and patenting the spoke business later:

Quoted message said:

> >>http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US000364231&PageNum=3&IDKey=6CAD6...

Quoted message said:

> >> Old patents can't be searched, so I don't know if Duryea ever did
> >> apply for a 2x3 spoke-fan patent before he switched to designing and
> >> building cars.

Quoted message said:

> >> Cheers,

Quoted message said:

> >> Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

> >Maybe they wanted lots of spokes without weakening the hub with lots
> >of closely spaced holes.

Quoted message said:

> >Joseph

Quoted message said:

> Dear Joseph,

Quoted message said:

> Maybe, but if you look closely at the picture, the hub consists of
> little arms--they're easiest to see just above the axle:

Quoted message said:

> http://i10.tinypic.com/8101uuh.jpg

Quoted message said:

> One hub arm is clearly visible pointing toward about 11 o'clock, and
> the rear fender stay runs right over the opposite hub arm.

Quoted message said:

> Cheers,

Quoted message said:

> Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Yes, they appear to be stamped steel for a straight-pull type
arrangement. Maybe that screw hold on the cog? The spacing between the
holes is still greater than if all 36 spokes went to the hub, even
with the weird star shape. I'm not suggesting this idea actually works
in strengthening the hub, just suggesting what I think the intent was.

Quoted message said:

My favorite part of the bike the adjsutable seat tube angle. Or is it
just the world's first soft-ride?

Quoted message said:

Joseph

Dear Joseph,

The seat springing and adjustment are typical of 1890s bicycle seats.

I was thinking more about that business below the bottom bracket. Is
it a spring gizmo, or just a turnbuckle of sorts?

Quoted message said:

Back then, riders routinely faced much rougher roads than we do, so
they appreciated even crude suspension.

They also appreciated more adjustment. The bicycles of that era
weren't made in the modern plethora of frame sizes, with 56 and 57 cm
versions, so you adjusted the seat, the handlebar, and even the pedals
to suit. (The cranks often came with slots so that you could move the
pedals closer or farther from the bottom bracket.)

These two oddballs show how much attention our ancestors paid to seat
springing and adjustment:

http://books.google.com/books?id=gFMN3-srupsC&printsec=frontcover&dq=...

Lest you think that they were impractical, here's a photo of Lenz on
his round-the-world trip, next to his Overman Victor safety bike with
front suspension and a seat that defies description:

http://i10.tinypic.com/5ywikhu.jpg

In those days, it was routine to ride down the middle of train tracks
over the cross-ties.

Rails-to-Trails would be proud. On high-wheelers too? I wonder what a
hasty dismount and track clearance under time pressure would have been
like.

Quoted message said:

Here's a clear picture of a similar Overman Victor:

http://www.prices4antiques.com/itemsummary/251080.htm

Oh, dear! Look at the way the spokes bend at the front hub on that
page!

That does not look good. You mean the rear hub, with the brake lever?
The captions are placed in a misleading way. I wonder what sort of
reasoning went into that crazy bend!

Joseph

Dear Joseph,

Yes, either the caption is wrong or else I confused which photo it
described.

One explanation for the odd bend might be that it's much easier to
drill regular radial holes in the hub and then bend the spokes for a
cross-laced tangent wheel than it is to drill half the holes at one
angle and half the holes at the other angle and then machine the
inside of each hole so that the spoke head sits flat instead of at an
angle.

The bend isn't as great as a normal spoke elbow, which is the other
way to simplify drilling the holes.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Tim McNamara said:

Carl Fogel said:

So is that a 24, 36, or 60 spoke rear wheel?

Teenage Mutant Crow's Foot spoking. It's a 2/3 cross spoking.

Less mutated, but still something other than "normal" crow's foot
lacing, is what I did to my 32-spoke Rohloff hub in order to fit 48
spokes. Later I showed Aaron's Bicycle Repair of West Seattle (an
official Rohloff service center) how to do it.

http://rideyourbike.com/48spokerohloff.html

Chalo