What do goal-pace 400's do?

Kaz Kylheku said:

I started doing these recently. I run 400, then jog 400,
twelve repetitions.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Subjectively, I definitely feel that the workout is
beneficial, but how? The repeats are too slow to have the
benefit of hard 400 sprints (anaerobic pathways, power,
coordination). The recoveries are too long for lactate
buildup, and the distance is too short for VO2Max.

Those recoveries are very long for this sort of workout. Use
200m recoveries instead. If you do the reps slowly and
maintain a good pace on the recoveries, it's like a variable
pace tempo run, perform it in a more conventional manner and
it's more like a VO2 max workout.

One could use long rests for maintenance work, but I don't
see much point to this (better to just do the same workout
at a slower pace)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

(Kaz Kylheku) said:

and the distance is too short for VO2Max.

I'm not sure I understand this. My favourite VO2Max
workout is 10-15 x 30" at vVO2max/30" at 50% vVO2max (or
200m/100m repeats).

If I do 400s at vVO2max, the recovery is only 45 seconds
jogging. Where do the 400/400s come from?

"Kaz Kylheku" <[email hidden]> wrote...

Quoted message said:

Subjectively, I definitely feel that the workout is
beneficial, but how? The repeats are too slow to have the
benefit of hard 400 sprints (anaerobic pathways, power,
coordination). The recoveries are too long for lactate
buildup, and the distance is too short for VO2Max.

My take on them is that they are a mildly productive form
of speedwork. Maybe not optimal according to the received
wisdom, but much better than cruising 8 minute miles
every day.

I think there's a huge amount of micro-exact fussiness about
types of interval workouts. I made my biggest marathon
improvement when I did 4 or 5 20 x 220 w/220jog recovery
workouts a few weeks before a marathon. This was my first
foray into speedwork, and my time dropped from 2:52 to 2:44
in 7 weeks.

I don't think you'll find that particular workout in any
marathon training program!

I did gravitate into a more conventional program of
intervals and short races, and that got me down below 2:40,
and 33:35 10k over the next year or so.

But I *never* ran any kind of intervals other than full
recovery ones, and I got down to the 2:30's. Maybe I could
have run 2:30 if I had---who knows?

Quoted message said:

Is it just a way to maintain some intensity when tapering
before a race? Does it somehow help that you are spending
time at the race pace without racing it all at once?

I do easy 400's when I taper, and find that it is the best
method I've used (and I've tried many tapering methods): My
legs feel rested and quick on race day. Got this from a Phd
in Exercise Phys, who is also a coach...

5 days before the race, I do 5 x 400m @ 5k pace, full
recovery. 4 days before, I do 4 x 400, and so on down to two
days before. 10 to 15 minute warmup/ warmdown each day.

This gives me enough speed to control my anxiety and energy
while tapering, yet they are easy enough so that I feel
refreshed, not tired.

-- Dan

and it is

Quoted message said:

useful to do it regularly, or does it fit into specific
training phases, like when a race is approaching?

If your recovery time is the same as the run time, then
you are doing a VO2max workout. Maybe not in the first
couple, but they become more and more aerobic with each
successive one.

If you are giving yourself more recovery then it is
more gray.

"Kaz Kylheku" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I started doing these recently. I run 400, then jog 400,
twelve repetitions.

Last night I was shooting for a 6:40 target pace, but did
most of them faster, at 6:30 to 6:35 pace. The 10th one at
6:00 pace. I used a countdown timer set to 1:40 to try to
hit the pace; but it always went off after I passed the
finish, except for one time when it beeped dead on.

I warmed up for a mile and warmed down for another mile
afterward, so 8 miles total.

These repeats feel good. They are about the pace of VO2Max
800's for me, but the distance being cut in half makes
them very easy, so you can crank out repeat after repeat,
each one as fast as the previous, with lots left in you to
do it substantially faster if you want to.

I felt nicely burned afterward and had trouble sleeping
through the night.

Subjectively, I definitely feel that the workout is
beneficial, but how? The repeats are too slow to have the
benefit of hard 400 sprints (anaerobic pathways, power,
coordination). The recoveries are too long for lactate
buildup, and the distance is too short for VO2Max.

Is it just a way to maintain some intensity when tapering
before a race? Does it somehow help that you are spending
time at the race pace without racing it all at once?

What are the documented benefits of this type of workout,
and it is useful to do it regularly, or does it fit into
specific training phases, like when a race is approaching?

"steve common" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(Kaz Kylheku) said:

and the distance is too short for VO2Max.

I'm not sure I understand this. My favourite VO2Max
workout is 10-15 x 30" at vVO2max/30" at 50% vVO2max (or
200m/100m repeats).

If I do 400s at vVO2max, the recovery is only 45 seconds
jogging. Where do the 400/400s come from?

I see you're still thinking too much. I warned you where
that would lead. Don't you believe me?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subjectively, I definitely feel that the workout is
beneficial, but

how? The repeats are too slow to have the benefit of hard
400 sprints (anaerobic pathways, power, coordination). The
recoveries are too long for lactate buildup, and the
distance is too short for VO2Max.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Is it just a way to maintain some intensity when tapering
before a

race? Does it somehow help that you are spending time at the
race pace without racing it all at once?

I find such a workout is a good way to lead into more
intensive interval/VO2Max training by getting the legs and
support system accustomed to running at race pace, running
them as repetitions (ample rest) vs. intervals (rest period
less than running time). You can then progress to a more
rigorus 400 program, although I have found it more effective
to move up to 800, 1200 and 1600 intervals in preparation
for 5K racing. You need to strictly limit rest to get VO2Max
results out of 400s, but it gets less critical at longer
distances because of the amount of time you are running at
pace. It is also easier to keep from speeding up too much
and sliding into more anaerobic speedwork which is not what
you are aiming for and increases the physical stress level.

400 repetitions can, as you suggest, provide some relatively
easy race pace maintenance during racing season. So you just
need to figure out what you are trying to accomplish

Paul.