weight training

Could it be this one CycleFast?

jap.physiology.org2191Open ↗

CycleFast said:

I'm not arguing Lance is slight, but I am arguing that he improved when he lost muscle mass...

I seem to recall reading that he lost his Triathlete build (broad shoulders, swimmer's build) post cancer.

Doctor Morbius said:

I seem to recall reading that he lost his Triathlete build (broad shoulders, swimmer's build) post cancer.

I haven't ready anything about where the muscles were acutually lost, but I've figured that it was probably pretty much evenly distributed all over his body? Would seem a little strange if he for some reason *only* lost muscles on his upper body?

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CycleFast

It is possible to lose muscle unevenly by not providing stimulation to the bodypart provided that bodypart was once being stimulated by sometype of resitance training and nutrition and then stopping. Eventually the bodypart will atrophy to the level that is needed while another bodypart being stimulated may continue to either maintain or increase.

Good example is a someone who is paralyzed from the waist down. Their legs over the next months following the injury will begin to atrophy, but the arms will maintain strength and size if stimulation is provided perhaps through resitance training or just daily activity confined to a wheel chair. Moving the wheel chair by use of the arms or physical therapy to maintain upper body strength.

From what I gathered in Lance's book that he maintained upperbody size that was gained in his days as a swimmer, but during his time fighting cancer he probably lost size evenly, but quickly regained strength in his legs once he returned to cycling. He did not regain the size in his upperbody because his focus was purely on cycling and was seeing a benefit from not stimulating his uppper body.

I may be wrong, but that is how I read his text describing coming back from cancer.

That was Eddy Merckx's view - that Lance lost his bulk after months of chemo. I suppose it's possible. Still, there is a point to be made that if you compare Lance with other TDF riders, he's not to be included in the slightest amongst the group. Lance is sort of lean, wiry but not skinny. He's not the best amongst the pure climbers but can beat most climbers hands down in a TT event. This is rare and only guys like Indurain had this climbing/TT ability that gives a real edge - Basso struggles in TT elite events during the TDF compared with his climbing which is almost on a par with Lance.

CycleFast said:

There's an article from Edvard Coyle (don't have a link here) where weight loss and muscular efficiceny are found to be the two main determinants for his improvements.

I'm not arguing Lance is slight, but I am arguing that he improved when he lost muscle mass...

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CycleFast

"When you train once a week, do you still do a bodybuilding-type of routine that you're used to doing? How many days per week did you weight training in your bodybuilding days?"

I figured it would happen one day and I've just started on an increased weights schedule although my goal has nothing to do with expecting such a program to help my cycling.
I'm still doing the whole body and only working on the big muscle groups so I eliminate curls and arm work. I start off with squats at around 235 pounds but for high reps and hitting rock bottom. I'm avoiding heavy weights as I figure I'm not too old for such heroics. I then follow up with leg-curls, bent-rowing with a barbell, bench presses (light and high reps) and also do seated barbell press.
The truth is I just want to put on a bit of weight for cosmetic purposes. It's worrying my knee has been playing up though. There's no pain but it feels like it locks up when I walk so I've no idea what it could be as yet.

Orange Fish said:

Some thoughts on this topic:
1) Regarding Lance and other pro cyclists using weights...these guys have the best of the best when it comes to coaches, so the weight training that is being prescribed for them is appropriate in intensity, duration, total volume, and timing. Please read on before writing a rebuttal to this point...

2) The studies that were looking at ECP and weight training were done on varied populations, during different phases of periodization, and by (in my honest opinion) relatively inexperienced researchers. By "inexperienced" I mean researchers who do not have a specific background in strength and conditioning. I just don't see their [the researchers] qualifications in being able to take a varied population and devise a periodized program by taking into consideration all of the strength training principles (i.e. specificity, individuality, progressive overload, recovery, among others) In short, I think the studies are all quite flawed and quite useless for trained populations like most of the cyclists in this forum. I think they are quite useless in general actually.

3) These studies cannot devise a general program for a small cohort of subjects and expect to see results that can be generalized to a larger population.

4) Now, we see guys like Lance and other pros who use weight training for a multitude of reasons. Like I stated before, they have the best of the best for coaches. Something has to be said for the benefits of weight training. This begs the question of:
If we completely remove weight training from, for example, Lance's yearly training program, would we see a decrease in his performance in races?
I cannot see how anyone can say no to this. Although, I think it would be an interesting study. 1 pro on a top-notch strength & conditioning program completely removed from any weight training for 1 year. See what happens.
Keep in mind that by performance, I am not only talking about power at threshold, fatigue, time trial performance, etc., but am also talking about other benefits associated with weight training such as developing muscular balance, bone mineral density improvements, injury prevention, and body composition maintenance to name a few.

Weights have no place in training for endurance events at all? Or are you speaking specifically to cycling?

Weight training 1 out of every 4 days, depending on your routine, will always be a shock to the body. That's only weight training 1 day out of the week...not enough to stimulate a response from the body, and too much recovery to allow the body to expect (and prepare for) another weight training session within 1-2 days. When you impose a stress on your body sufficient to cause it to respond, it will recover and prepare for another bout of that stress/exercise.

It's like if you do one 4-hour ride per week at a high intensity...you will be wiped out the next day. Over the next 7 days, your body will recover, begin to adapt, waiting for another stimulus. However, by day 7 you'll be completely recovered. So when you go to do your intense 4 hour ride again, you'll basically be starting from scratch, imposing that huge stress on your body all over again, and causing it to go through the same adaptation, recovery cycle...never being prepared for the next bout and never gradually adapting to the imposed stress.

I do not find that unusual at all. I would completely expect that. Bodybuilding and cycling are completely different, so loosing some of that maximal strength that you had as a bodybuilder will be very noticable on the bike.
When you train once a week, do you still do a bodybuilding-type of routine that you're used to doing? How many days per week did you weight training in your bodybuilding days?

Bottom Line:
I do not think that anyone can say that weight training is useless for cycling and ECP. There is evidence out there that shows (through flawed studies) that general, un-periodized, weight training programs that do not account for individual differences in subjects do not show improvements in ECP. However, professional cyclists who have the best coaches available and who participate in well-designed weight training programs are very successful. Whether or not that success is at all determined by their weight training or not, we cannot say. This is a topic that needs MUCH MUCH more research before any of us can say one way or another. And the thread that everyone keeps talking about is, in my mind, useless as well becasue it comes from unsubstantiated opinions based on flawed research. We should provide a holistic view of weight training to forum posters, avoid referring them to the "Gymming to Improve Power" thread, and allow them to make their own fully informed decisions.