water proof jackets

Malcolm said:

Hi I'm new to this forum and getting drawn to more dramatic scenery
than in the south east. In June I got totally drenched on Great Gable
- twice. I was so wet I had to wring out my fleece. I was wearing a
Millets "waterproof breathable" Peter storm Jacket which had been
washed and reproofed twice. The man in the local shop said really
there is no such thing as a waterproof breathable jacket and that no
one was coming off the hills dry that day. I've been saving up and i'm
now wondering what the compromise is. I don't mind getting a bit damp
but surely i can do better than that. Should I go for a simple PVC
totally water proof jacket and accept the sauna conditions; a
relatively cheap option. I haven't found any with good hoods, wired
peak, storm flaps velcro cuffs etc. I've been thinking of Berghaus
gortex cornice jackets; fragile and may be not long-lived. Is it worth
stretching to a Paramo jacket. Many seem to say they are good and will
last a long time, have a lifetime guarantee and are reproofable. I'm
prepared to invest in something if it really works. I've seen the
discussion "Who pays these prices" so now I'm unsure what to do.

I think a decent 'waterproof breathable' jacket of some description is worth
it. If you persevere with searching the web you can find some good deals,
especially if you don't mind unpopular colours etc. You should be able to
get something decent for £100. If you're the type that gets hot and sweaty
easy like me, then goretex etc is worth the extra to feel more comfortable
IMO.

"Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi I'm new to this forum and getting drawn to more dramatic scenery
than in the south east. In June I got totally drenched on Great Gable
- twice. I was so wet I had to wring out my fleece. I was wearing a
Millets "waterproof breathable" Peter storm Jacket which had been
washed and reproofed twice. The man in the local shop said really
there is no such thing as a waterproof breathable jacket and that no
one was coming off the hills dry that day. I've been saving up and i'm
now wondering what the compromise is. I don't mind getting a bit damp
but surely i can do better than that. Should I go for a simple PVC
totally water proof jacket and accept the sauna conditions; a
relatively cheap option. I haven't found any with good hoods, wired
peak, storm flaps velcro cuffs etc. I've been thinking of Berghaus
gortex cornice jackets; fragile and may be not long-lived. Is it worth
stretching to a Paramo jacket. Many seem to say they are good and will
last a long time, have a lifetime guarantee and are reproofable. I'm
prepared to invest in something if it really works. I've seen the
discussion "Who pays these prices" so now I'm unsure what to do.

My personal preference is for a Gore-Tex jacket and Paramo trousers

Not everyone will agree though. ;-)

Pete

(Malcolm) said:

I was wearing a
Millets "waterproof breathable" Peter storm Jacket which had been
washed and reproofed twice. The man in the local shop said really
there is no such thing as a waterproof breathable jacket and that no
one was coming off the hills dry that day.

<snip>
Ask the next person you see wearing a Paramo jacket what they think of
it. It should last you forever, provided you stay the same shape. ;->

www.paramo.co.uk

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the
wonderful person Chris <proteus1@gmxDOTnet.?.invalid> said

Quoted message said:

(Malcolm) said:

I was wearing a
Millets "waterproof breathable" Peter storm Jacket which had been
washed and reproofed twice. The man in the local shop said really
there is no such thing as a waterproof breathable jacket and that no
one was coming off the hills dry that day.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Ask the next person you see wearing a Paramo jacket what they think of
it. It should last you forever, provided you stay the same shape. ;->

This is an interesting sampling method, but not entirely unbiased. 8>.

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Outgoing Msgs are Turing Tested,and indistinguishable from human typing.

Pete <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

My personal preference is for a Gore-Tex jacket and Paramo trousers

Not everyone will agree though. ;-)

I do!

I wore the Paramo pants today for the first time since last winter, and
was glad of them in a chill wind, even though it stayed dry. I wore the
shirt too, and most of the day didn't need the light fleece I carried.
--
Gordon

"Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Hi I'm new to this forum and getting drawn to more dramatic scenery
than in the south east. In June I got totally drenched on Great

Gable

Quoted message said:

- twice. I was so wet I had to wring out my fleece. I was wearing a
Millets "waterproof breathable" Peter storm Jacket which had been
washed and reproofed twice. The man in the local shop said really
there is no such thing as a waterproof breathable jacket and that no
one was coming off the hills dry that day.

Rubbish, he would say that if he flogged you it! Anything that says
"waterproof breathable" and costs 20 quid needs to be treated with
caution, but if you're willing to spend 100 ukp you should get
something semi decent which will keep you fairly dry, although a
certain amount of condensation is probably inevitable and you may end
up being damp. My Gortex jacket has kept the worse out for the last
ten years, but recently I bought a Paramo top and was very impressed
with that too. I've got a Jacket made out of Hydro Dry, whatever that
is :-) (bought for 50 quid some time ago) which has never let me down
either. TBH, I have wandered around Millets shops wondering how they
have the nerve to put the words waterproof and breathable on garments
that look like they're made out of plastic.

Graham

GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

Quoted message said:

Ask the next person you see wearing a Paramo jacket what they think of
it. It should last you forever, provided you stay the same shape. ;->

This is an interesting sampling method, but not entirely unbiased. 8>.

Well, it's probably less biased asking a wearer instead of a shop
assistant!

On 19 Sep 2004 12:45:41 -0700, [email hidden] (Malcolm) wrote:

Hi,

I've got a Karrimor Goretex Paclite jacket, and it's kept me dry in
very wet conditions. The same goes for my Berghaus Paclite Extrem
trousers, and if anything I've been even more impressed by those. I'm
not sure how long all Goretex products retain the ability to do what
they're advertised as doing - I suppose they vary - but I'd have been
suprised and disappointed to return from teh trip you described wet.

I can't comment on Paramo, as I've never used it.

Good luck: I've no doubt that you can find things to keep you dry,
without spending an absolute fortune 🙂

Best wishes,
--
Peewiglet

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the
wonderful person Chris <proteus1@gmxDOTnet.?.invalid> said

Quoted message said:

GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

Quoted message said:

Ask the next person you see wearing a Paramo jacket what they think of
it. It should last you forever, provided you stay the same shape. ;->

This is an interesting sampling method, but not entirely unbiased. 8>.

Well, it's probably less biased asking a wearer instead of a shop
assistant!

Depends whether you select a shop assistant who stocks them, or one who
doesn't, or a mixture. Anyone wearing or selling them is highly unlikely
to say 'they're complete cr&p' or 'they're a rip-off'.

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Outgoing Msgs are Turing Tested,and indistinguishable from human typing.

"Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi I'm new to this forum and getting drawn to more dramatic scenery
than in the south east. In June I got totally drenched on Great Gable
- twice. I was so wet I had to wring out my fleece. I was wearing a
Millets "waterproof breathable" Peter storm Jacket which had been
washed and reproofed twice. The man in the local shop said really
there is no such thing as a waterproof breathable jacket and that no
one was coming off the hills dry that day. I've been saving up and i'm
now wondering what the compromise is. I don't mind getting a bit damp
but surely i can do better than that. Should I go for a simple PVC
totally water proof jacket and accept the sauna conditions; a
relatively cheap option. I haven't found any with good hoods, wired
peak, storm flaps velcro cuffs etc. I've been thinking of Berghaus
gortex cornice jackets; fragile and may be not long-lived. Is it worth
stretching to a Paramo jacket. Many seem to say they are good and will
last a long time, have a lifetime guarantee and are reproofable. I'm
prepared to invest in something if it really works. I've seen the
discussion "Who pays these prices" so now I'm unsure what to do.

Boundary Mill in Lancashire (Colne) sell Lowe Alpine stuff really cheap...
Last January I got a Lowe Foraker for (£123, RRP is £180). That's been out
in the worst winter conditions I've ever been in and I was bone dry (and
warm-ish). Too expensive? About 6 months ago I also bought a lightweight
lowe waterproof outer, it's like a gore paclite equivilent. £27! RRP is £70.
A friend was lucky enough to be in the shop when they announced and extra
10% off and got his for £23.
It pays to shop around but, if you don't know what to look for, the best
advice I can give is, go to a genuine climbing/mountaineering shop and ask
them. They don't usually sell [censored] because getting wet whilst walking in the
pennines might be a bit uncomfortable but getting wet in winter up a
Scottish mountain could kill you.

Good luck.

GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

Depends whether you select a shop assistant who stocks them, or one who
doesn't, or a mixture. Anyone wearing or selling them is highly unlikely
to say 'they're complete cr&p' or 'they're a rip-off'.

I think we can rule out shop assistants for unbiased advice full stop,
whether they sell Paramo or not. In fact Paramo stockists have to be
conversant with the Paramo system, so they certainly won't advise
against them! So you can look to independent tests, or rely on users -
both to my mind providing less biased advice.

I don't know who you speak to, but I don't believe most people would
*over-sell* the jacket they were wearing just because they had bought
it. OTOH no-one wearing a particular jacket is likely to say it's [censored]
or else they would likely not be using it. As to rip-offs, I think
comparable Goretex jackets with a limited lifespan and higher pricetag
*are* rip-offs, and I speak as the owner of 3. (OK I'm a slow
learner!)

Malcolm said:

- twice. I was so wet I had to wring out my fleece. I was wearing a
Millets "waterproof breathable" Peter storm Jacket which had been
washed and reproofed twice. The man in the local shop said really
there is no such thing as a waterproof breathable jacket and that no
one was coming off the hills dry that day.

He's right... up to a point. Goretex's "Guaranteed to keep you dry"
slogan is just marketing (i.e., lies, told with sufficient small print
disclaimers to be technically true but meaningless). The only way to
stay genuinely dry is to wear a watersports drysuit with elaborate seals
and then not do anything to make you sweat: it isn't going to happen!
Having said that, good waterproofs will keep you substantially dri/er/
than poor ones, and "breathable" fabrics will probably keep you more
comfortable for longer, that comfort going up as the breathability does.

Quoted message said:

I've been saving up and i'm
now wondering what the compromise is. I don't mind getting a bit damp
but surely i can do better than that. Should I go for a simple PVC
totally water proof jacket and accept the sauna conditions; a
relatively cheap option. I haven't found any with good hoods, wired
peak, storm flaps velcro cuffs etc.

That's the problem with these. A binliner will keep the worst off okay,
but a good quality wired hood will make really bad conditions merely
unpleasant rather than purgatory.

Quoted message said:

I've been thinking of Berghaus
gortex cornice jackets; fragile and may be not long-lived.

I make waterproofs last for a long time by not actually wearing them
unless it's raining hard. Used like this, low pack weight and volume
become more of an asset, but even a thin waterproof should last many
tears if you don't actually use it much.

Quoted message said:

Is it worth
stretching to a Paramo jacket. Many seem to say they are good and will
last a long time, have a lifetime guarantee and are reproofable. I'm
prepared to invest in something if it really works.

It does really work, but OTOH I personally find them too hot outside of
full-on winter conditions, so they're of no use to me as general
waterproofs.

Quoted message said:

discussion "Who pays these prices" so now I'm unsure what to do.

IMHO it's worth spending more than rock bottom. The time will come when
you spend a day in a waterproof in highly disgusting wind driven sleet,
and one such day will make you realise what a good thing it is to have a
jacket with a decent hood and pockets you can access easily with enough
space for more than a compass.

I usually use a Lowe Atom, which I picked up from a bargain bin for £120
rather than (IIRC) £160. It's got a good hood, pit zips for some extra
comfort and doesn't take up too much room in the pack. I could do
better, but not so much I'm prepared to go and spend more money when
what I've got works okay. You're up against the law of diminishing
returns, where paying £300 will not make the same difference from a £75
jacket as a £75 jacket will make from a £20 example.

Keep it simple with the money on useful things like a good hood and
accessible pockets. Avoid unnecessary seams, colour patches purely for
decoration (they usually mean more seams) and rollaway hoods. Drawcords
are only any use if you'll use them to improve the fit, otherwise
they're money for nothing. Try and avoid seams on the shoulders, and
make sure the pockets are useful sizes and places if there are some
there (no pockets means less weight/bulk). Zips to zip in a fleece are
pointless: avoid them too.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the
wonderful person Chris <proteus1@gmxDOTnet.?.invalid> said

Quoted message said:

GSV Three Minds in a Can said:

Depends whether you select a shop assistant who stocks them, or one who
doesn't, or a mixture. Anyone wearing or selling them is highly unlikely
to say 'they're complete cr&p' or 'they're a rip-off'.

I think we can rule out shop assistants for unbiased advice full stop,
whether they sell Paramo or not. In fact Paramo stockists have to be
conversant with the Paramo system, so they certainly won't advise
against them! So you can look to independent tests, or rely on users -
both to my mind providing less biased advice.

I don't know who you speak to, but I don't believe most people would
*over-sell* the jacket they were wearing just because they had bought
it. OTOH no-one wearing a particular jacket is likely to say it's [censored]
or else they would likely not be using it. As to rip-offs, I think
comparable Goretex jackets with a limited lifespan and higher pricetag
*are* rip-offs, and I speak as the owner of 3. (OK I'm a slow
learner!)

The original one-liner about 'not completely unbiased' was supposed to
be tongue in cheek. Personally I'd ask a bunch of people (in the rain)
what they are wearing and how they rate it. From reading the comments
and reviews (and not yet having blown my £200 or whatever on one) it
looks like Paramo is just dandy if you want something to wear in the
winter. If you want something to pack and drag out only when it rains,
or something for 4-season waterproof use, most Paramo appears overly
heavy/bulky.
And expensive.. did I mention expensive?

Me, I'm a fair-ish weather walker (day walks only), so I'd rather have
something lighter I can pack. If it's absolutely p1$$ing down,
horizontal, nothing is going to keep you dry, so I'll crack a bottle of
wine, put my feet up, and watch the storm roll over my conservatory from
the general direction of mid-Wales. Now going out in a snowstorm I rate
as pretty good fun, but rain+gales you can keep.

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Outgoing Msgs are Turing Tested,and indistinguishable from human typing.

Peter Clinch said:

I make waterproofs last for a long time by not actually wearing them
unless it's raining hard. Used like this, low pack weight and volume
become more of an asset, but even a thin waterproof should last many
tears if you don't actually use it much.

I've read that goretex doesn't like to be folded up tightly, which
implies that keeping it rolled up in the sac would also contribute
to wear (though maybe not as much as using it).

Is this a problem, or is that warning out of date ?

-adrian

GSV Three Minds in a Can <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the
wonderful person Chris <proteus1@gmxDOTnet.?.invalid> said

Quoted message said:

(Malcolm) said:

I was wearing a
Millets "waterproof breathable" Peter storm Jacket which had been
washed and reproofed twice. The man in the local shop said really
there is no such thing as a waterproof breathable jacket and that no
one was coming off the hills dry that day.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Ask the next person you see wearing a Paramo jacket what they think of
it. It should last you forever, provided you stay the same shape. ;->

This is an interesting sampling method, but not entirely unbiased. 8>.

LOL!
I only select gear on my own personal requirements, but I do listen to
others' objective descriptions.

Fr'instance, if I wanted to know the best pair of sandals to wear for
kicking cairns over I would ask Martin.

If I wanted to know how difficult a bit of rocky terrain was, I would
ask in uk.rec.olddecrepitfarts, not in uk.rec.walkingisformachohombrés.
--
Gordon

Chris <proteus1@gmxDOTnet.?> wrote

Quoted message said:

I don't know who you speak to, but I don't believe most people would
*over-sell* the jacket they were wearing just because they had bought
it.

Not bloody much they wouldn't, just listen to us on here! :-)

Quoted message said:

OTOH no-one wearing a particular jacket is likely to say it's [censored]
or else they would likely not be using it.

Quite.

Quoted message said:

As to rip-offs, I think
comparable Goretex jackets with a limited lifespan and higher pricetag
*are* rip-offs, and I speak as the owner of 3. (OK I'm a slow
learner!)

I still have the first Sprayway Goretex jacket I bought some time in the
70s, £67 and it is still waterproof, but doesn't breathe. Useful in
the garden when using a high pressure water jet cleaner. It has a
couple of Sellotape patches where it tore on barbed wire.

My Abris Sympatex, £130 in a sale, also tore on a fence after enough
years to write it off, but has been used this summer because it's light,
and still waterproof but not breathable. It has a couple of iron-on
patches......

The new BMW, sorry, Berhaus Goretex Turbo-Diesel, £250, will soon be
back in use for its second winter now the temperature is dropping.

I don't think £250 is bad for a coat which I can wear every day
throughout the winter(s) and look smart like a BBC outside broadcaster.
--
Gordon

Treefrog <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Boundary Mill in Lancashire (Colne) sell Lowe Alpine stuff really cheap...
Last January I got a Lowe Foraker for (£123, RRP is £180). That's been out
in the worst winter conditions I've ever been in and I was bone dry (and
warm-ish). Too expensive? About 6 months ago I also bought a lightweight
lowe waterproof outer, it's like a gore paclite equivilent. £27! RRP is £70.
A friend was lucky enough to be in the shop when they announced and extra
10% off and got his for £23.

Hmmm, I didn't realise they sold decent outdoor labels there.

If we set off for the Dales one day and it starts peeing down it might
be an alternative to trudging round in the rain. :-)

We had an interesting day at The National Museum of Photography on one
of those days, including an IMAX film...
--
Gordon

Pete said:

"Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi I'm new to this forum and getting drawn to more dramatic scenery
than in the south east. In June I got totally drenched on Great Gable
- twice. I was so wet I had to wring out my fleece. I was wearing a
Millets "waterproof breathable" Peter storm Jacket which had been
washed and reproofed twice. The man in the local shop said really
there is no such thing as a waterproof breathable jacket and that no
one was coming off the hills dry that day. I've been saving up and i'm
now wondering what the compromise is. I don't mind getting a bit damp
but surely i can do better than that. Should I go for a simple PVC
totally water proof jacket and accept the sauna conditions; a
relatively cheap option. I haven't found any with good hoods, wired
peak, storm flaps velcro cuffs etc. I've been thinking of Berghaus
gortex cornice jackets; fragile and may be not long-lived. Is it worth
stretching to a Paramo jacket. Many seem to say they are good and will
last a long time, have a lifetime guarantee and are reproofable. I'm
prepared to invest in something if it really works. I've seen the
discussion "Who pays these prices" so now I'm unsure what to do.

My personal preference is for a Gore-Tex jacket and Paramo trousers

I prefer the reverse. They are both good fabrics though.

Malcolm said:

Hi I'm new to this forum and getting drawn to more dramatic scenery
than in the south east. In June I got totally drenched on Great Gable
- twice. I was so wet I had to wring out my fleece. I was wearing a
Millets "waterproof breathable" Peter storm Jacket which had been
washed and reproofed twice. The man in the local shop said really
there is no such thing as a waterproof breathable jacket and that no
one was coming off the hills dry that day. I've been saving up and i'm
now wondering what the compromise is. I don't mind getting a bit damp
but surely i can do better than that. Should I go for a simple PVC
totally water proof jacket and accept the sauna conditions; a
relatively cheap option. I haven't found any with good hoods, wired
peak, storm flaps velcro cuffs etc. I've been thinking of Berghaus
gortex cornice jackets; fragile and may be not long-lived. Is it worth
stretching to a Paramo jacket. Many seem to say they are good and will
last a long time, have a lifetime guarantee and are reproofable. I'm
prepared to invest in something if it really works. I've seen the
discussion "Who pays these prices" so now I'm unsure what to do.

I have had two jackets for walking in, one is made by Keela and one is
made by Vaude. The Vaude one is fantastic its called the Vaude Escape,
which has been revised as the Vaude Escape II which has an RRP of 75
quid. I got mine from Action outdoors in Ipswich, Can't remember what I
paid for it. It is fantastically waterproof, and very breathable. I will
soon be getting myself and mayby my other half a new jacket, and we will
probably both go for the Vaude Escape II (Womans). Also, its worth
noting that the Escape II weighs only around 500 grams, and packs into
one of the pockets when your not using it. This pocket also has a nice
waist belt, which for when you just go for a leasurly stroll but don't
want to risk getting soked, can be warn as a bum bag and not require
you to take another bag, this pocket also still has enough room for a
sensible sized mobile phone and mars bar in it too :p

The Keela jacket is also worth mentioning, it was around 45 ukp again
from action outdoors in Ipswich, It is has proven to be very water proof
and also to breath resonably.

Ultimately tho, you need to remember two things:

* There is no such thing as dry, only varying degrees of damp
* The difference between damp and moist, is weather or not your enjoying
it :p

HTH.

Thanks

K