Vitamin C (again)

Anth said:

1 pint of freshly squeezed orange juice gives us approx 248mg of vitamin C
per day.
So for a 2g typical Pauling dose that's approx 10 pints of fresh orange
juice which is a scary amount of juice!
(All based on assumptions on the amount of C you actually absorb from the
pills)
So how much vitamins do we actually absorb from the pills?
And how much orange juice do I need to be drinking to avoid heart
disease.. Any ideas?

The catch here: The alternaive Mafia uses this as an argument: One cannot
eat as much fruit as is necessary. Therefore one has to eat the pills the
alternaive mafia sells.

(As an animal I would object to having to eat 30 large oranges juice to keep
my heart disease down)
In fact I doubt whether an animal could eat that many fruits.
So how many oranges (juiced) ? (assuming that 3 oranges makes 1 pint of
juice)
Anth

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

In said:

Pauling said this long before anyone and he wasn't in it for the cash ..
As a chemist he fully understood the effects of oxidation / reduction and he
could clearly see the 'balance' simply isn't there.

Wow. *Fascinating* interpretation of "antioxidant."

--
| Microsoft: "A reputation for releasing inferior software will make |
| it more difficult for a software vendor to induce customers to pay |
| for new products or new versions of existing products." |
end

So how come high dose vitamin c/lysine reduced plaque by 1500% in a recent
trial?
Anth

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

1 pint of freshly squeezed orange juice gives us approx 248mg of vitamin

C

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

per day.
So for a 2g typical Pauling dose that's approx 10 pints of fresh orange
juice which is a scary amount of juice!
(All based on assumptions on the amount of C you actually absorb from

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pills)
So how much vitamins do we actually absorb from the pills?

We know that the amount absorbed decreases rapidly, urinary output is very
high, and cellular stores are completely saturated at about 1 Gram a day
orally. So you could at least halve the above without any worries.

BTW atherosclerosis is not the same as scurvy, despite what Rath and

others

Quoted message said:

say. You will not prevent it this way, and it may not help in the
slightest unless you also attend to the quality of your diet, not smoking,
plenty of exercise, and get high risk factors such as hypertension and a
poor lipid profile dealt with. (This is why the Vitamin C theory is
another AM promotion that is probably on balance dangerous for health.)

A glass or so of red wine with its isoflavones most days (but no more)

will

Quoted message said:

help. Actually over a hundred clinical studies show a protective effect
of any kind of modest alcohol intake. The evidence for Vitamin C is
negligible compared to this. This is 'another fact' that the medical
profession keeps under wraps :-) (because it does not want to promote
alcoholism and the more serious consequences of that..)

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

And how much orange juice do I need to be drinking to avoid heart

disease..

Quoted message said:

Any ideas?
Anth

It doesn't make sense that Pauling would see increased cancer risk in mice
and _still_ take mega doses of vitamin c
That's crazy!
Anth

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Vitamin C (again)
From: "Anth" [email hidden]
Date: 8/19/2003 3:40 AM Mountain Daylight Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

It doesn't make sense that Pauling would see increased cancer risk in mice
and _still_ take mega doses of vitamin c
That's crazy!
Anth

So maybe he calculated the oxidative stress in the mice before the addition of
vitamin C and knew full well they did not require supplementation and also knew
full well what approximate amounts to use this side of carcinogenesis .. ?

But that would take a genius ..

Who loves ya.
Tom

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Jesus Was A Vegetarian! http://jesuswasavegetarian.7h.com
Man Is A Herbivore! http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/manisaherbivore
DEAD PEOPLE WALKING http://pages.ivillage.com/ironjustice/deadpeoplewalking

Quoted message said:

It doesn't make sense that Pauling would see increased cancer risk in mice
and _still_ take mega doses of vitamin c
That's crazy!
Anth

Bingo! Linus Pauling was a brilliant man who went mad, mad as march hare.

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

(Ilsa9) said:

Quoted message said:

It doesn't make sense that Pauling would see increased cancer risk in mice
and _still_ take mega doses of vitamin c
That's crazy!
Anth

Bingo! Linus Pauling was a brilliant man who went mad, mad as march hare.

I prefer 'mad as a hatter' for the Hg thingy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

So how come high dose vitamin c/lysine reduced plaque by 1500% in a recent
trial?
Anth

How can that statement even be true?

If you are referring to an as yet unpublished trial of Vitamin C, lysine,
and some other constituents that was quoted here recently, that does not
prove anything specifically for Vitamin C. I am, in any case, not saying
Vitamin C has no effect. Even the best evidence for it does not show it
totally stopping atherosclerosis, as would be expected if it were a simple
vitamin deficiency as Rath and others claim.

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

1 pint of freshly squeezed orange juice gives us approx 248mg of

vitamin

Quoted message said:

C

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

per day.
So for a 2g typical Pauling dose that's approx 10 pints of fresh

orange

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

juice which is a scary amount of juice!
(All based on assumptions on the amount of C you actually absorb from

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pills)
So how much vitamins do we actually absorb from the pills?

We know that the amount absorbed decreases rapidly, urinary output is

very

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

high, and cellular stores are completely saturated at about 1 Gram a

day

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

orally. So you could at least halve the above without any worries.

BTW atherosclerosis is not the same as scurvy, despite what Rath and

others

Quoted message said:

say. You will not prevent it this way, and it may not help in the
slightest unless you also attend to the quality of your diet, not

smoking,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

plenty of exercise, and get high risk factors such as hypertension and a
poor lipid profile dealt with. (This is why the Vitamin C theory is
another AM promotion that is probably on balance dangerous for health.)

A glass or so of red wine with its isoflavones most days (but no more)

will

Quoted message said:

help. Actually over a hundred clinical studies show a protective

effect

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of any kind of modest alcohol intake. The evidence for Vitamin C is
negligible compared to this. This is 'another fact' that the medical
profession keeps under wraps :-) (because it does not want to promote
alcoholism and the more serious consequences of that..)

Peter Moran

Quoted message said:

And how much orange juice do I need to be drinking to avoid heart

disease..

Quoted message said:

Any ideas?
Anth

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It doesn't make sense that Pauling would see increased cancer risk in mice
and _still_ take mega doses of vitamin c
That's crazy!
Anth

Did you find Robinson's work? This is a well documented episode that you
will find in biographies of Pauling but will NEVER see in alt.med accounts.
I don't know why he tried to suppressed this work. One biography suggested
it was just too much for him to see this work coming out of his own
laboratory when he had been so strongly promoting vitamin C.

Remember too, PAuling had no medical or biophysiological backgound, He was a
laboratory biochemist. He was extremely naive about some things, such as
taking increasing doses until you got diarrhoea, which means nothing more
than that the colon has started to protest about the amount of Vitamin C it
has to convey.

Peter Moran

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Remember too, PAuling had no medical or biophysiological backgound, He
was a laboratory biochemist. He was extremely naive about some
things, such as taking increasing doses until you got diarrhoea, which
means nothing more than that the colon has started to protest about
the amount of Vitamin C it has to convey.

For some reason, I can't imagine anyone believing that the appropriate dose
for a typical pharmaceutical used regularly would be the maximum tolerated
dose. But when it's a "supplement"...

Yep found Robinson's work; I think it's a disgrace that Pauling tried to
cover that up, even if Pauling did find his work 'amateurish'
Anth

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It doesn't make sense that Pauling would see increased cancer risk in

mice

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and _still_ take mega doses of vitamin c
That's crazy!
Anth

Did you find Robinson's work? This is a well documented episode that you
will find in biographies of Pauling but will NEVER see in alt.med

accounts.

Quoted message said:

I don't know why he tried to suppressed this work. One biography

suggested

Quoted message said:

it was just too much for him to see this work coming out of his own
laboratory when he had been so strongly promoting vitamin C.

Remember too, PAuling had no medical or biophysiological backgound, He was

a

Quoted message said:

laboratory biochemist. He was extremely naive about some things, such as
taking increasing doses until you got diarrhoea, which means nothing more
than that the colon has started to protest about the amount of Vitamin C

it

Quoted message said:

has to convey.

Peter Moran

I can't see primates eating equivalent of 30 large oranges a day either -
the human gut wouldn't take it.
Anth

"Eric Bohlman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Remember too, PAuling had no medical or biophysiological backgound, He
was a laboratory biochemist. He was extremely naive about some
things, such as taking increasing doses until you got diarrhoea, which
means nothing more than that the colon has started to protest about
the amount of Vitamin C it has to convey.

For some reason, I can't imagine anyone believing that the appropriate

dose

Quoted message said:

for a typical pharmaceutical used regularly would be the maximum tolerated
dose. But when it's a "supplement"...

Eric Bohlman said:

For some reason, I can't imagine anyone believing that the appropriate
dose for a typical pharmaceutical used regularly would be the maximum
tolerated dose. But when it's a "supplement"...

That's the case with cancer chemotherapy.
I think that's also true of some forms of HIV chemotherapy.

Quoted message said:

Yep found Robinson's work; I think it's a disgrace that Pauling tried to
cover that up, even if Pauling did find his work 'amateurish'
Anth

Anth, I hope that you are keeping score. By that, I hope that you are taking
into consideration what Orac said about the NCI on the topic of Cancell, what
Peter Moran said about Laetrile, and what you have just found out about Pauling
(which I told you about).

Once you start to investigate the individual methods, the conspiracy theory
unravels. You find that the Alternative Cancer Curing Emperor has __NO__
Clothes and is endorsing a cash optional death-style for those desperate &
unfortunate enough to cross their paths.

Now you see why I get "huffy" when you accuse the science based, mainstream
folks of being Genocidal profiteers. That's the very niche the Alt Cancer
Quacks occupy.

Quoted message said:

"Peter Moran" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Anth" <[email hidden]> wrote in messag

...and furthermore you and I differ in the sense that you are willing to
blindly trust results, whereas I do not - I have to find out for myself.
Anth

Anth said:

..and furthermore you and I differ in the sense that you are willing to
blindly trust results, whereas I do not - I have to find out for myself.
Anth

In that case I recommend against experimentation with firearms.

%^)

Anth said:

I can't see primates eating equivalent of 30 large oranges a day either -
the human gut wouldn't take it.

Small oranges often have more vit C than larger ones. Wild fruits
often have a lot more vit C than their cultivated varieties. You can't
compare a wild raw diet to eating modern cultivated supermarket fruit.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

see below

Chris Malcolm said:

Anth said:

I can't see primates eating equivalent of 30 large oranges a day either -
the human gut wouldn't take it.

Small oranges often have more vit C than larger ones. Wild fruits
often have a lot more vit C than their cultivated varieties. You can't
compare a wild raw diet to eating modern cultivated supermarket fruit.

--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

General Info: the average HUMAN needs a modicum of 250 mg per hour of Vit
C

A smoker needs an additional 50 mg per ciggy! Vit C is the UNIVERSAl
"catalyst"
for all foods..and catalyse Vit E so together they calalyse Minerals. A
simle pyramid
that CANNOT BE IGNORED IF HEALTH IS A QUESTION B-0B1