V2 Formula vs GRR

Sunset Lowracer TM Fanatic said:

... so that will generally be [not] be a decisive factor.

Please note correction - Ed. [1]

[1] Abbreviation for "Editor", not "Edward".

"Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
[...]

Quoted message said:

However, the inherent performance advantage of either bicycle is likely
to be outweighed by the influence of rider comfort on performance. Some
will find the medium height BB on the RANS V2 too high, while others
will find the upright seating position on the GRR to be uncomfortable
on longer rides. The potential purchaser will be better off choosing
the bike that offers the preferred riding position and/or handling
qualities.

[...]

The above is the one thing that you cannot change on a recumbent, i.e., the
relationship of the seat to the crank. I have often thought that the optimum
for this arrangement is to have the crank only slightly below the seat, as
in the RANS Tailwind and the new Bacchetta Agio. The crank appears to be
only several inches lower than the seat in both of the above cases. This is
also a powerful pedaling position. The only thing against it is that it is
not very aerodynamic.

I think that RANS V2 has slightly too high a crank, but still not bad, and
that the GRR has too low a crank. I have the RANS V2 and it is always a bit
of a learning experience to get back on it after having been on my homemade
Tour Easy with the low crank. As you can see from this, I am strictly a long
wheelbase kind of recumbent guy.

By the way, have there been any reports around on the new Bacchetta Agio? It
is not a high end recumbent, but it looks like a very nice design with
acceptable components - and not too pricey. I think it would handle very
easily and be plenty fast enough. I do not know if it has a lot of tiller in
the steering, which is generally considered a demerit. My old Tailwind, one
of the very earliest ones, has way too much tiller.

Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Edward Dolan said:

... I do not know if it has a lot of tiller in
the steering, which is generally considered a demerit. My old Tailwind, one
of the very earliest ones, has way too much tiller.

Presumably this is the version of the RANS Tailwind with square
cross-section tubing, short chain stays that leave most of the main
tube cantilevered [1] and the "C" handlebars. The latter Tailwinds
handle much better than the original version, according to most who
have ridden both.

[1] Unlike the latter RANS Tailwinds (and RANS Wave) with round tubing,
chain stays that meet the main tube at the bottom bracket a short
distance behind the head tube, and "T" handlebars.

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
"are there stones on distant mountain decents marking the gored and
deceased? arms and wrists broken ?
or is this unreported?" - G. Daniels

"Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan said:

... I do not know if it has a lot of tiller in
the steering, which is generally considered a demerit. My old Tailwind,
one
of the very earliest ones, has way too much tiller.

Presumably this is the version of the RANS Tailwind with square
cross-section tubing, short chain stays that leave most of the main
tube cantilevered [1] and the "C" handlebars. The latter Tailwinds
handle much better than the original version, according to most who
have ridden both.

[1] Unlike the latter RANS Tailwinds (and RANS Wave) with round tubing,
chain stays that meet the main tube at the bottom bracket a short
distance behind the head tube, and "T" handlebars.

Yes, you have got all of the above exactly right!

Damn! Mr. Sherman really does know his recumbents like no one else on this
newsgroup, of that there can be no doubt. When Mr. Sherman speaks on the
subject of recumbents, I shut up and listen.

Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Ed, I must agree completely! On the subject of recumbents, I too shust
up and listen.

Jim

Sunset Lowracer TM Fanatic said:

However, the GRR rider will sit closer to the front fairing due to the
more upright seating position and handlebar/riser design, so the
coefficient of drag could be expected to be lower on the GRR when only
a front fairing is mounted - this might provide the GRR with an
advantage.

Actually, with a properly designed fairing I believe the V2 rider could
easily be as close to the fairing as a GRR rider. The GRR rider sits
closer to the fairing because of the design of the fairing, not becasue
of the design of the bike, especially considering the different risers
and bars one can now buy for a V2. One of the problems is that the V2
uses an off-the-shelf Mueller fairing, while Easy Racer bikes use a
Zzipper that has been basically built for their bikes. We have both
Mueller and Zzipper fairings for our TE's. When riding with the
Mueller it is obvious that the fairing bows upward and then bends back.
This puts the fairing further from the feet than the Zzipper. I
noticed this last winter when riding in cold weather. I could feel the
wind wrap around the Mueller and hit my feet. This winter (and two
winters ago) riding with the Zzipper keeps my feet out of the wind.

Last summer I talked to a rider who had mounted a Zzipper on his V2 and
he also felt that the front bow on the Mueller is not needed nor is
aerodynamic. He wished Zzipper would make a fairing for the V2 that
was longer and would also come closer to the rider. With a better
fairing design bringing the fairing closer to the body of the V2 rider,
the V2 would, in my mind, be as fast or perhaps faster than the GRR.

Enjoy,

Perry B

Perry Butler said:

Sunset Lowracer TM Fanatic said:

However, the GRR rider will sit closer to the front fairing due to the
more upright seating position and handlebar/riser design, so the
coefficient of drag could be expected to be lower on the GRR when only
a front fairing is mounted - this might provide the GRR with an
advantage.

Actually, with a properly designed fairing I believe the V2 rider could
easily be as close to the fairing as a GRR rider....

However, moving the fairing closer to the rider would increase the
amount of tiller on the V2 [1], and most seem to believe that would be
detrimental to the handling. One of the conscious design decisions Easy
Racers made was to reduce tiller (which of course puts other
limitations on possible rider positions).

Quoted message said:

The GRR rider sits
closer to the fairing because of the design of the fairing, not becasue
of the design of the bike, especially considering the different risers
and bars one can now buy for a V2. One of the problems is that the V2
uses an off-the-shelf Mueller fairing, while Easy Racer bikes use a
Zzipper that has been basically built for their bikes. We have both
Mueller and Zzipper fairings for our TE's. When riding with the
Mueller it is obvious that the fairing bows upward and then bends back.
This puts the fairing further from the feet than the Zzipper. I
noticed this last winter when riding in cold weather. I could feel the
wind wrap around the Mueller and hit my feet. This winter (and two
winters ago) riding with the Zzipper keeps my feet out of the wind.

I have ridden on a lowracer besides several Easy Racers with Super
Zzipper front fairings, and in all cases I can determine the Easy
Racers rider's cadence by sound alone, as there is a distinct change as
the rider's foot passed through the zone unprotected by the fairing.
The additional drag caused here can be estimated by noting the speed
change between coasting downhill while pedaling in too low of a gear to
provide any power to the drive wheel (the effect of doing this is also
quite noticeable on an unfaired bicycle).

[1] Unless the weight, cost and complexity of indirect steering was
added.

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
"the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct
wave
Point" - G. Daniels

Jim Reilly said:

Ed, I must agree completely! On the subject of recumbents, I too shust
up and listen.

If that is the case, why are you not riding an Earth Cycles Sunset
Lowracer? Do I need to do more to promote the virtues of the Sunset? 😉

[Sounds of people screaming in terror as they flee in panic.]

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
"the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct
wave
Point" - G. Daniels

How many Sunset Lowracers did Earth Cycles build? As I recall, they
built a very nice looking trike as well when they were in business?

Jim

Hey Ed. What's this about getting on in our years! OK, so I DO feel
like I am getting on in years, but the truth is that I break the HRS
blog's stereotype about owners of highracers. I am not old or fat...
well unless you ask my sixth grader, and she will tell you that her 43
year old dad is REALLY old.

Jim

Ed, I think the TE/GRR are very similar to the Stratus. And make no
mistake, I still commute on my faired Stratus several times a week. My
issues with the Stratus are two fold. One, the original t-bar steering
set up on the 99 was very tiller heavy. I fixed that with the evo-pro
bars from Calhoun about a year before RANS introduced their own fix.
OK. Problem solved. One down, one to go. My second problem is with
the size of the standard frame. As a 6 foot rider with a 43.5 inch
xseam, as a recumbent newbie, I was sold a standard frame bike (from a
well respected Recumbent Dealer and customizer in the Rocky Mtns). I
fit this frame, JUST barely! The seat is ALL the way back and still
don't get quite full leg extension. Clearly today I would buy the XL
no question about it. Jude McGloin, the former Wheel Doctor sold me my
Strada and insisted I buy the Large frame for that bike. He was
correct! About your comments on the V2, as I mentioned before, I am
faster on the Strada. I feel I can deliver more power to the pedals on
the Strada clearly a result of the higher BB. Perhaps the V2 would
offer me the best of both worlds.... That is a better fitting LWB frame
with a slightly higher BB for performance.

Regards,
Jim

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ed, I think the TE/GRR are very similar to the Stratus. And make no
mistake, I still commute on my faired Stratus several times a week. My
issues with the Stratus are two fold. One, the original t-bar steering
set up on the 99 was very tiller heavy. I fixed that with the evo-pro
bars from Calhoun about a year before RANS introduced their own fix.
OK. Problem solved. One down, one to go. My second problem is with
the size of the standard frame. As a 6 foot rider with a 43.5 inch
xseam, as a recumbent newbie, I was sold a standard frame bike (from a
well respected Recumbent Dealer and customizer in the Rocky Mtns). I
fit this frame, JUST barely! The seat is ALL the way back and still
don't get quite full leg extension. Clearly today I would buy the XL
no question about it. Jude McGloin, the former Wheel Doctor sold me my
Strada and insisted I buy the Large frame for that bike. He was
correct! About your comments on the V2, as I mentioned before, I am
faster on the Strada. I feel I can deliver more power to the pedals on
the Strada clearly a result of the higher BB. Perhaps the V2 would
offer me the best of both worlds.... That is a better fitting LWB frame
with a slightly higher BB for performance.

Regards,
Jim

Everything you say above hits home with me. I also have a 43" x-seam and I
do need the larger frames. If you get the RANS V2 be sure it is in the
larger size as you do not want to be all the way back on the frame. The same
would be true if you decided to get the GRR.

The V2 handles much better than any SWB, but the higher crank means that you
can get SWB comfort as easy as pie. But the handling is not as secure as the
TE. I do not get numb feet on the V2, but if the crank were another inch
higher I think I would. I know I am right at the edge of what is possible
for me.

The V2 in the large size is a very large bike, no doubt about that. Very
many people do not like LWB because the bikes are so large and consequently
difficult to transport.

The V2 is plenty fast and I can go as fast on it as I want. Frankly, I do
not like to ever go much beyond 20 mph. I once went 35 mph on a SWB and
scared myself to death. That never happens on a LWB.

Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hey Ed. What's this about getting on in our years! OK, so I DO feel
like I am getting on in years, but the truth is that I break the HRS
blog's stereotype about owners of highracers. I am not old or fat...
well unless you ask my sixth grader, and she will tell you that her 43
year old dad is REALLY old.

Jim

I have got a theory about how old is old. I think in a state of nature none
of us would live much beyond 30. By state of nature I mean the hundreds of
thousands of years of our primate ancestors and of our own species, [censored]
sapiens. In other words, nothing beyond the Old Stone Age.

Therefore, if you are over 40 you are old by my definition. Mostly our
bodies are starting to fall apart in our 20's and it just gets worse and
worse as we age.

However, even a high civilization was no guarantee that you would live very
long. The catacombs of Ancient Rome are full of people who never lived
beyond their 20's. In fact the average age of those entombed there is 24! It
is really the invention of modern scientific medicine with its emphasis on
public health measures that has given us a shot at a longer life. Left to
the tender mercies of Mother Nature, we are old by 30 and most us would be
dead by 40.

Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

Ed, the age thing really hit home for me two weeks ago at my 25 year
high school reunion. I walked in with my wife, looked around, and
said, "let's go", I must be in the wrong place. I certainly didn't go
to school with the fat, bald/gray old men in this room! Ah but I did!
And after closer examination in the mirror I see that I AM one (except
for the fat part)!

Jim

Jim Reilly said:

How many Sunset Lowracers did Earth Cycles build? As I recall, they
built a very nice looking trike as well when they were in business?

Earth Cycles built approximately 20 Sunset Lowracers and 200
Dragonflyer trikes.

Here are pictures of my Dragonflyer taken by the previous owner:
<http://www.ihpva.org/incoming/2002/Dragonflyer/>.

--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley

Edward Dolan said:

...
Mr. Reilly and I are going to wait on you to design and build the perfect
recumbent. If anyone can do it, you can. Try to keep the price down so Mr.
Reilly and I can afford it. Of course, I realize you will have to finish up
with your engineering career, but hurry it up. Mr. Reilly and I are getting
on in years and we can't wait for you forever.

The remaining assets of Earth Cycles are for sale. If I were
independently wealthy I would revive the company. Becoming a recumbent
manufacturer is a good way to make a small fortune from a large fortune
(ask those who invested in BikeE).

Quoted message said:

I once met Bill Cook on the North Dakota bike tour (CANDISC). Bill is the
designer and builder of his own line of recumbents (Barcroft). He had just
recently retired from being a writer for Newsweek. He took his time and
gradually got his recumbent the way he wanted it. It turned out to be a
rather long short wheel base and was quite unique. The seat was fairly laid
back and the crank was fairly high. I rode his prototype and liked it but I
told him I couldn't buy it from him because my feet would go numb from the
high crank. Unfortunately he ended up pricing it at $2000., a bit out of my
price range.

I met Bill Cook at CABDA 2000 [1] and he seemed very enthusiastic about
his bikes. [2]

A couple of corrections. Bill Cook wrote for US News & World Report,
not Newsweek.

Secondly, Bill Cook/Barcroft subcontracts most of the work, such as
frame building and painting. This minimizes his capital investment,
since in many cases he can wait until he receives an order to have the
frame built (an advantage of being a semi-custom, low volume builder).

I suspect that Mr. Cook's primary reward is getting to have bicycles he
likes created and receiving positive feedback from Barcroft owners, and
not financial profit.

Quoted message said:

If a writer for Newsweek could design and build recumbents, surely Mr.
Sherman could also. I believe Mr. Sherman with his engineering background
and all his recumbent knowledge could come up with a very nice recumbent,
one that would be fast and comfortable and one that would not put my feet to
sleep; also, one that would not cost an arm and a leg.

My local bike shop has bikes and trikes for people that have missing or
damaged appendages or other physical handicaps:
<http://thebikerack.com/site/page.cfm?PageID=396>.

[1] 2001 was the last CABDA show.
[2] <http://www.barcroftcycles.com/>.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
"the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct
wave
Point" - G. Daniels

Edward Dolan said:

...
The V2 in the large size is a very large bike, no doubt about that. Very
many people do not like LWB because the bikes are so large and consequently
difficult to transport.

There are some Easy Racer owners that have either replaced their bikes
with a Fold-Rush [1] or purchased a Fold Rush as an additional bike for
this very reason.

Quoted message said:

The V2 is plenty fast and I can go as fast on it as I want. Frankly, I do
not like to ever go much beyond 20 mph. I once went 35 mph on a SWB and
scared myself to death....

"Dead Ed" Dolan is posting from the afterlife?

[1] <http://www.easyracers.com/fold_rush.htm>.
--
Tom Sherman - Fox River Valley
"the bacteria people tuned in-as to bioengineering at the correct
wave
Point" - G. Daniels

"Sunset Lowracer [TM] Fanatic" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Edward Dolan said:

...
Mr. Reilly and I are going to wait on you to design and build the perfect
recumbent. If anyone can do it, you can. Try to keep the price down so
Mr.
Reilly and I can afford it. Of course, I realize you will have to finish
up
with your engineering career, but hurry it up. Mr. Reilly and I are
getting
on in years and we can't wait for you forever.

The remaining assets of Earth Cycles are for sale. If I were
independently wealthy I would revive the company. Becoming a recumbent
manufacturer is a good way to make a small fortune from a large fortune
(ask those who invested in BikeE).

[...]

The trick is to figure out how to make a nice recumbent that does not cost
much. In order to do this you would have to be a smart person. I think
almost anyone can build a recumbent if price is no object. I am sick to
death of $2000. recumbents. Where are the $200. recumbents?

I believe Mr. Sherman could prove to the world how smart he is by designing
and building a nice recumbent that would only cost $200. The world would
acclaim him a genius if he would do this. However, if all he can do is come
up with another $2000. recumbent, then I say let him continue with his
engineering career. The world does not need any more $2000. recumbents.

Regards,

Ed Dolan - Minnesota

The fit and finish work look top notch.

Jim