ursine marathon report

I've been trying to figure out why the run is hitting me so hard
"since I only _ran_ 18 miles" and I had nothing like this during
my 18 or 21 mile runs, then I had a d'oh moment.

My running pace was about 12:50/mile, which is fairly typical for
my very long runs. (It's slightly slower since my running buddy
and I were holding back a bit because of the extra distance.)

My walking pace, since I was able to walk fairly briskly, was
probably about 15:30-16:00. That's really not that much slower
than my running pace. No wonder my pulse was above 160 (my
training rate) for more than three miles after I switched to walking.

i had a long run
once
it's not so long anymore
today

On Sun, 26 Sep 2004 22:25:36 GMT, Bear G <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I've been trying to figure out why the run is hitting me so hard
"since I only _ran_ 18 miles" and I had nothing like this during
my 18 or 21 mile runs, then I had a d'oh moment.

My running pace was about 12:50/mile, which is fairly typical for
my very long runs. (It's slightly slower since my running buddy
and I were holding back a bit because of the extra distance.)

My walking pace, since I was able to walk fairly briskly, was
probably about 15:30-16:00. That's really not that much slower
than my running pace. No wonder my pulse was above 160 (my
training rate) for more than three miles after I switched to walking.

<< It was a dark and stormy night. >>

....but alas, what happened after that?

_______
Blog, or dog? Who knows. But if you see my lost pup, please ping me!
<A
HREF="http://journals.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo">http://journal
s.aol.com/virginiaz/DreamingofLeonardo</A>

Quoted message said:

.but alas, what happened after that?

hott threesome sex.

[email hidden] (Barf Bag) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

.but alas, what happened after that?

hott threesome sex.

You may not recognize your mom when you get home, I shaved her back.

Quoted message said:

You may not recognize your mom when you get home, I shaved her back.

NO WAY! The braids too? I spent HOURS on those...

Bear G said:

My final time was 6:16, a bit over my expected 5:30. (I think it was
3:55 at the 17 mile marker.) I'm tired and my legs are locking up, but
I'm in pretty good shape.

Way to hang in there, Bear G. Sounds like you did the right things
(walk) in the race when needed. Walking will help your recovery.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I've drunk my recovery drink, taken my vitamins, and taken a swig of
Molson's to ceremonously launch preparations for Vancouver 2005. Time
to sleep.

Spend some recovery time, then enjoy the trip for your next adventure!

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

Dot said:

Bear G said:

My final time was 6:16, a bit over my expected 5:30. (I think it was
3:55 at the 17 mile marker.) I'm tired and my legs are locking up,
but I'm in pretty good shape.

Way to hang in there, Bear G. Sounds like you did the right things
(walk) in the race when needed. Walking will help your recovery.

It's hard to walk when you can't fully extend your left leg! I
dropped off some film at Costco and was walking normally (almost)
by the time I got back to my car so I planned to walk a while this
evening. But it's been raining for hours now. :-(

Quoted message said:

It's hard to walk when you can't fully extend your left leg!

Stop jerking off 50x a day, and you'll get better.

Bear G <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:W336d.271098$mD.191383@attbi_s02...

Quoted message said:

Dot said:

Way to hang in there, Bear G. Sounds like you did the right things
(walk) in the race when needed. Walking will help your recovery.

It's hard to walk when you can't fully extend your left leg! I
dropped off some film at Costco and was walking normally (almost)
by the time I got back to my car so I planned to walk a while this
evening. But it's been raining for hours now. :-(

Don't let that stop you. Living in the desert, I jump at any opportunity to
be out in the rain.

Matthew said:

Bear G <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

It's hard to walk when you can't fully extend your left leg! I
dropped off some film at Costco and was walking normally (almost)
by the time I got back to my car so I planned to walk a while this
evening. But it's been raining for hours now. :-(

Don't let that stop you. Living in the desert, I jump at any opportunity to
be out in the rain.

Well, heavy cold rain. With lightning. But this morning looks
pretty nice, maybe I can hobble for a few miles.

I guess congratulations are in order for surviving, but I'm sitting
here trying to figure out why you had such a bad time.

Since the weather sounds like it was ideal, I don't buy the "heat
exhaustion" thing. I suppose it's possible, but it defies logic.You
couldn't ask for much better than 40's/50's at the start.

What were you wearing?

Did you hydrate correctly?

What was your pace? Was it different than what you'd run in training?

What are your long (15+) runs done at?

In a later post you say your 6 mile runs are at 9:45. That should
result in a far better time with minimal damage/effort. That's my
wife's normal pace for that distance and we're working to get her a
4:15 to qualify for Boston.

Before you start anticipating what time you'll run in your next
marathon, you need to figure out what you did wrong in this one.

And correct it.

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"

Mike Tennent said:

Since the weather sounds like it was ideal, I don't buy the "heat
exhaustion" thing. I suppose it's possible, but it defies logic.You
couldn't ask for much better than 40's/50's at the start.

_Something_ happened and was responsive to me dropping to a fast
walk. Heat exhaustion is the simpliest explanation that I'm aware of.

(BTW I'm not too concerned about the temperature. I remember from
my wilderness survival training that heat exhaustion is more
likely in hot weather but it can happen under any weather
conditions.)

Quoted message said:

What were you wearing?

The same thing I've been wearing for months, with one exception.
I've started wearing a mesh cap as the temperatures drop and the
runs get long enough that I worry about a sunburned bald spot.
I'm pretty sure I wore it during our 21 mile run, but that was a
cooler day.

I remember taking it off for a while, but I put it back on when it
felt like I was starting to get a sunburn as we jogged into the
morning sun. I now realize that was probably the worst possible
decision.

It is currently the prime suspect. :-)

Quoted message said:

Did you hydrate correctly?

Yes... but I had also noticed that the Accelerade was mixed pretty
heavy. I drank about 6 oz of Accelerade mix (plus gel) at miles
6, 9, 12 and 15, started to feel a bit of stomach distress, and
drank about 6 oz of water at mile 17. From that point until mile
22 I was probably drinking 8-12 oz of mixed water and accelerade
but I was walking. I was definitely overhydrated at the start - I
had to hit the 'loo at mile 2.

I've trained with both, but I usually use the premix Accelerade on
my long runs.

(I know it looks like I'm drinking too often, but it was actually
every 45 minutes or so. Same as in training.)

Quoted message said:

What was your pace? Was it different than what you'd run in training?

If anything it was a touch slower since Pawel and I knew we would
have to run 5 miles further than we've run before. But it was
more bursty since this was only our second run with that unending
series of small hills - we normally run on flat trails.

It's certainly possible that we picked up speed on the long slow
decent from the hill at the halfway mark to the turnaround point
at mile 17. I think that's a 300' drop on straight roads, staring
into the faces of the pack heading back towards the finish.

Quoted message said:

What are your long (15+) runs done at?

28 Aug: 21 mi: 4:23, strong until the end.
31 Jul: 18 mi: ran 15 in about 3 hrs, had to walk in
10 Jul: 15 mi: 3:04, struggled last few miles

I didn't commit to the full marathon until after the 21 mile run.
If I hadn't finished strongly I would have run the half and
dropped back a fallback plan (train an additional 10 weeks and run
either Seattle or CIM).

Quoted message said:

In a later post you say your 6 mile runs are at 9:45. That should
result in a far better time with minimal damage/effort.

That's easy to explain - I've been running for only 8 months and
my training at this distance is very thin. I always knew a full
marathon would be iffy at best, but I felt it was more important
to reach for the brass ring and risk failure than to run the safe
and sure half. Stretching wings and all that.

You don't see it here but my times at 6, 10 and 13 miles have been
plummeting. On the longer runs it's not uncommon for me to drop
10 minutes from my run at that distance just a month earlier.
I'll learn more now that I can focus on building my aerobic base
instead of focusing on building endurance for 15, 21 and 26 miles.

Quoted message said:

Before you start anticipating what time you'll run in your next
marathon, you need to figure out what you did wrong in this one.

Makes sense.

Bear G said:

Dot said:

Bear G said:

My final time was 6:16, a bit over my expected 5:30. (I think it was
3:55 at the 17 mile marker.) I'm tired and my legs are locking up,
but I'm in pretty good shape.

Way to hang in there, Bear G. Sounds like you did the right things
(walk) in the race when needed. Walking will help your recovery.

It's hard to walk when you can't fully extend your left leg!

understood 😉

I dropped

Quoted message said:

off some film at Costco and was walking normally (almost) by the time I
got back to my car so I planned to walk a while this evening. But it's
been raining for hours now. :-(

And your point is ...? 😉
Good weather to test your rain gear. Seriously, if the roads had been
too icy for me to get to my race on Sun am, I was going to head back and
run on my home trails - in the driving rain! I don't usually get that
kind of weather and welcomed the opportunity to test my gear and me. Ya
never know when you're going to have race conditions like that 🙂

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

Dot said:

Good weather to test your rain gear.

There's not much call for rain gear in Colorado - most of the time
"wet" and "warm" means summer thunderstorms and it's a good idea
to stay out of the storm because of the threat of lightning.

Even "wet" and "cold" can be dangerous - you haven't lived until
you've seen thundersnow.

We're starting to get our cold weather gear though....

(P.S., in 2000(?) our marathon was a slushy mess because of snow.)

Bear G said:

Dot said:

Good weather to test your rain gear.

There's not much call for rain gear in Colorado - most of the time "wet"
and "warm" means summer thunderstorms and it's a good idea to stay out
of the storm because of the threat of lightning.

I went to school in Ft Collins for 5.5 yrs and some of my research was
above Milner Pass. Yep, I know about afternoon thunderstorms and dang
near got fried by one that snuck up behind me ahead of schedule.

Quoted message said:

Even "wet" and "cold" can be dangerous

very much so.

- you haven't lived until you've

Quoted message said:

seen thundersnow.

That's one I haven't seen.

Quoted message said:

We're starting to get our cold weather gear though....

(P.S., in 2000(?) our marathon was a slushy mess because of snow.)

sounds like fun.

Dot

--
"So many people get stuck in the routine of life that their dreams waste
away. This is about living the dream." - Cave Dog

Bear G said:

Mike Tennent said:

Since the weather sounds like it was ideal, I don't buy the "heat
exhaustion" thing. I suppose it's possible, but it defies logic.You
couldn't ask for much better than 40's/50's at the start.

_Something_ happened and was responsive to me dropping to a fast
walk. Heat exhaustion is the simpliest explanation that I'm aware of.

Simplest, but probably wrong.

Look, from what you say, you did everything the same as you did in
training, had cooler weather, but suddenly you got "heat exhaustion."
It doesn't add up.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

That's easy to explain - I've been running for only 8 months and
my training at this distance is very thin.

<sigh>

You really don't need to look any further for the reason you ended up
in the survival shuffle. You were inadequately trained for a marathon.

Get the training in, start to respect the distance, and you might be
able to do something other than the shuffle.

I hate to sound callous, but it's the same old story we hear every
year. Self-inflicted wounds. Yeah, you finished, but you had a
miserable time. If you'd taken a more methodical approach and trained
properly for next year's race, you would have had a much more positive
first marathon experience.

Learn from your mistake. Get the proper training in.

Mike Tennent
"IronPenguin"

Mike Tennent said:

Bear G said:

_Something_ happened and was responsive to me dropping to a fast
walk. Heat exhaustion is the simplest explanation that I'm aware of.

Simplest, but probably wrong.

Look, from what you say, you did everything the same as you did in
training, had cooler weather, but suddenly you got "heat exhaustion."
It doesn't add up.

Warmer weather. The overnight low was slightly lower for the 21.
Both started at dawn.

Other differences were a longer descent and a longer run into the
sun. Finally I had a stuffed nose from the start to around mile
14, but if I had a mild cold that was the only sympton I noticed.

Another possibility is meds. I just checked with my doctor and
she said temperature control can be a problem for some people. I
seemed to tolerate it well on training runs, but maybe it's a
problem at the 4 hour mark when temps are into the mid/high 60s.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's easy to explain - I've been running for only 8 months and
my training at this distance is very thin.

<sigh>

You really don't need to look any further for the reason you ended up
in the survival shuffle. You were inadequately trained for a marathon.

This was not the survival shuffle. I've done that a few times
during the early training runs and remember it well.

Sunday I was able to walk fairly briskly (but not as fast as the
'walkers'😉 and only had 20 pound weights on my feet for a short
time. In fact I caught and passed another "runner" on the way in,
someone who had been doing a "run/walk" during most of the chase.

Another difference was that my HR went down very slowly - it was
still in my training range at the finish. That wasn't the case
when I shuffled far shorter distances back to my car.

Quoted message said:

I hate to sound callous, but it's the same old story we hear every
year. Self-inflicted wounds. Yeah, you finished, but you had a
miserable time.

I wouldn't want to do it every weekend, but other than miles 17 to
18 I doubt I was any more miserable than the people who finished
in under three hours. I was definitely fine up to mile 16 or so.
After that point I had some problems, I took care of them and
they didn't become major problems.

Give me another 10 weeks to train and a drop to sea level and I
have no doubt I could have run to the finish in Seattle or CIM.
Then again I would hurt more afterwards since I haven't been
training on pavement.

My first notes focused on the problems because they were taken
from an email message sent to several other people who are
training for marathons. We all knew what to expect in the first
half, but none of us had substantial experience with the last 10
miles or aftereffects. The muscle tightness, hamstring soreness
and fatigue didn't start until after I got home and had to walk
after sitting for a while.

Quoted message said:

If you'd taken a more methodical approach and trained
properly for next year's race, you would have had a much more positive
first marathon experience.

As I mentioned earlier I followed a coached training program
designed for light runners. I actually surpassed it since I still
needed to take walking breaks for short distances when I started
it yet I ran add'l miles during the final few months. The problem
was getting enough miles in during the season when starting from
nothing - back in February I was only able to do about 50% (by
time) run/walk mixes for 30 minutes.

Bear G said:

Mike Tennent said:

Bear G said:

_Something_ happened and was responsive to me dropping to a fast
walk. Heat exhaustion is the simplest explanation that I'm aware of.

Look, from what you say, you did everything the same as you did in
training, had cooler weather, but suddenly you got "heat exhaustion."
It doesn't add up.\

I've been crunching some numbers and something was definitely off
on Sunday. Ignoring the different intensities etc., I created a
matrix of my pace on all runs over 10 miles during the past 13(?)
weeks:

June July Aug Sept
10 11:31 10:58,
10:59
11
12 12:05
13 12:14 11:48(**)
14
15 12:12,
12:05?(*)
16
17 (13:50)
...
21 12:33

(*) This is an estimated pace during the 15 miles I ran of an 18
mile run.

(**) at recovery pace. Probably ~11:30 at normal pace.

You can see why I was expecting an average pace around 12:30-12:45
and how uncharacteristic 13:50 is. We were holding back slightly,
but that would account for ~20 seconds/mile at most.

I've tried to think of possible causes (overtraining, lack of
taper, poor nutrition, poor hydration, poor sleep, unusually hot
weather, etc.) and almost nothing seems to fit. The two I can't
rule out are stress, an asymptomatic cold, or a combination. An
asymptomatic cold with a low grade fever could explain the
overheating.