Two wheels does it

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

On 5 Nov 2006 05:14:11 -0800, "Johnny Sunset" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Please put some real numbers to this; percentages of posts, percentages
or threads, etc. for posts on rec.bicycles.* telling upright cyclists
they should switch to recumbents. Then compare this to the number of
posts by upright cyclists denigrating recumbents.

How about also consider the number of upright riders and the number of
recumbent riders. It seems that any given recumbent rider is more
likely to be a loud evangelist for his/her particular favorite type of
bike.

Gratuitously telling anyone that their chose of bicycles is wrong is
just rude [1]. Suggesting to someone complaining of comfort problems
there is an alternative is an entirely different matter. Similarly,
doing so on Usenet is entirely different than in person, since no one
is forced to read every post or thread.

[1] Certain people should try taking a recumbent on a few larger
attendance invitational rides to see what treatment they get.

--
Tom Sherman - Post Free or Die!

Johnny Sunset said:

One wonders why certain upright riders are so upset at the mere mention
of recumbent bicycles?

Possibly because those "mere mentions" always include attacks on
standard bikes.

Quoted message said:

I should get some decals made up that say "Please DO NOT ask me about
my bike" in case I ever do any type of invitational ride again. (Not to
worry, I will not repeat my past sin of showing up to any type of ride
on a recumbent where riding occurs as a group).

It's hard to imagine that the world of group riding would be any poorer
without you, regardless of what you're riding.

The only objections I'd make to having recumbents along, though, are that
the wobbly take-offs could endanger others and that their machines would
take up far too much space and block footpaths at typical coffee shops.

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

Johnny Sunset said:

Gratuitously telling anyone that their chose of bicycles is wrong is
just rude [1].

I've known people to do that to recumbent riders just to see the steam
come out of their ears. You'd think they'd be immune to "Why doncha
get a real bike?" after a while, but no - it works every time.

Of course, this must be done up hills, where the suggestion can be rubbed
in by leaving them in the dust :-)

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

Michael Warner said:

Johnny Sunset said:

One wonders why certain upright riders are so upset at the mere mention
of recumbent bicycles?

Possibly because those "mere mentions" always include attacks on
standard bikes.

No it doesn't, as a cursory Google Groups search would reveal. Stick
with the facts.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I should get some decals made up that say "Please DO NOT ask me about
my bike" in case I ever do any type of invitational ride again. (Not to
worry, I will not repeat my past sin of showing up to any type of ride
on a recumbent where riding occurs as a group).

It's hard to imagine that the world of group riding would be any poorer
without you, regardless of what you're riding.

At least I have gained the decency to learn when I am not wanted and
not show up [1], unlike most people in the world who are too
self-centered to really see themselves.

Quoted message said:

The only objections I'd make to having recumbents along, though, are that
the wobbly take-offs could endanger others and that their machines would
take up far too much space and block footpaths at typical coffee shops.

On most rides (not races) there is not a close packed mass start, so
any startup wobble is not an issue. Most recumbents are hardly wider
than the handlebars of an upright road bike (and narrower than many
flat bars), and barely longer.

[1] Usenet doesn't count, since anyone who doesn't like my posts can
easily ignore them.

--
Tom Sherman - If you think I am a jerk on Usenet...
Post Free or Die!

Michael Warner said:

Johnny Sunset said:

Gratuitously telling anyone that their chose of bicycles is wrong is
just rude [1].

I've known people to do that to recumbent riders just to see the steam
come out of their ears. You'd think they'd be immune to "Why doncha
get a real bike?" after a while, but no - it works every time.

Of course, this must be done up hills, where the suggestion can be rubbed
in by leaving them in the dust :-)

So you approve of people acting like jerks? That would say a lot about
you.

--
Tom Sherman - If you think I am a jerk on Usenet...
Post Free or Die!

Johnny Sunset said:

On most rides (not races) there is not a close packed mass start, so
any startup wobble is not an issue.

I'm thinking of traffic lights,where there's often no more than a bike
lane. The occasional problems when people fail to clip in are bad enough.

Quoted message said:

Most recumbents are hardly wider
than the handlebars of an upright road bike (and narrower than many
flat bars), and barely longer.

The ones I've seen wouldn't stack in tight overlap against a wall, either
with each other or standard bikes. It may seem like a minor point, but
we wouldn't be welcome if we endangered outdoor dining licenses, which
require footpaths to be kept reasonably clear.

Quoted message said:

[1] Usenet doesn't count, since anyone who doesn't like my posts can
easily ignore them.

Ok. You must think you're somehow doing the recumbent cause a favour
with this attitude, so good luck with it :-)

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

Johnny Sunset said:

So you approve of people acting like jerks?

No, but I suspect that you're incapable of distinguishing between a bit
of teasing and a genuine verbal assault. If you're so sensitive about your
choice of bike that you need to spend time on usenet complaining about
these real or imagined slights, perhaps it's best that you ride alone or in
the company of others as strange and different as yourself :-)

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

Michael Warner said:

Johnny Sunset said:

So you approve of people acting like jerks?

No, but I suspect that you're incapable of distinguishing between a bit
of teasing and a genuine verbal assault. If you're so sensitive about your
choice of bike that you need to spend time on usenet complaining about
these real or imagined slights, perhaps it's best that you ride alone or in
the company of others as strange and different as yourself :-)

I am not bothered by these comments, but make the point of mentioning
them since certain regulars like to complain about "recumbent
evangelists" and never see the other side.

--
Tom Sherman - If you think I am a jerk on Usenet...
Post Free or Die!

Michael Warner said:

Johnny Sunset said:

On most rides (not races) there is not a close packed mass start, so
any startup wobble is not an issue.

I'm thinking of traffic lights,where there's often no more than a bike
lane. The occasional problems when people fail to clip in are bad enough.

If there are enough bicycles, take an entire lane. Note that I was
referring to organized rides where there is no expectation or riding in
a close group or drafting, unless individually arranged and agree upon.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Most recumbents are hardly wider
than the handlebars of an upright road bike (and narrower than many
flat bars), and barely longer.

The ones I've seen wouldn't stack in tight overlap against a wall, either
with each other or standard bikes. It may seem like a minor point, but
we wouldn't be welcome if we endangered outdoor dining licenses, which
require footpaths to be kept reasonably clear.

This would hardly seem to be a common issue or problem - maybe
Australia is different.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[1] Usenet doesn't count, since anyone who doesn't like my posts can
easily ignore them.

Ok. You must think you're somehow doing the recumbent cause a favour
with this attitude, so good luck with it :-)

Contrary to the beliefs of some on this group, I do not care what other
people ride.

--
Tom Sherman - If you think I am a jerk on Usenet...
Post Free or Die!

In article
<[email hidden]>
,

Johnny Sunset said:

Roger Zoul said:

Johnny Sunset wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: [email hidden] wrote:
::::: ...
::::: Disclaimer: I understand the appeal of recumbent bikes, for
::::: certain people's comfort, for interesting design challenges, and
::::: for specialized racing applications. I don't dislike them at
::::: all. But I think the vast majority of cyclists will always be
::::: better served with a more conventional bike.
:::::
:::
::: What about as a second bike where when the first is a conventional?
::
:: This is OK as long as you NEVER mention the recumbent bicycle in a
:: positive light on rec.bicycles.* or to someone in real life who rides
:: an upright bicycle.

I ride an upright! And I'm going to ride a recumbent, too! I think the bike
that better serves a person is the one a person prefers to ride. I think I
desire the experience of riding different types of bikes and don't see why
either of them can't serve my needs.

Some of the regulars in rec.bicycles.tech do not consider recumbents
bicycles, and refuse to admit that recumbent bicycles can serve ANY
purpose.

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure why people choose to draw
this line in the sand, frankly. You would think that anyone who claims to
advocate cycling would prefer to see more of any kind of functional bike on
the road as opposed to another car!...

Some of the regulars in rec.bicycles.tech do not consider recumbents
bicycles, and refuse to admit that recumbent bicycles can serve ANY
purpose.

Nope, recumbent bicycles are PURELY EVIL AND MUST NOT BE TOLERATED!

How about you address directly any slights to the
slighting party? Or go back to
alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent where this belongs.

--
Michael Press

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Johnny Sunset said:

Roger Zoul said:

Johnny Sunset wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: Johnny Sunset wrote:
::::: Roger Zoul wrote:
:::::: [email hidden] wrote:
:::::::: ...
:::::::: Disclaimer: I understand the appeal of recumbent bikes, for
:::::::: certain people's comfort, for interesting design challenges,
:::::::: and for specialized racing applications. I don't dislike them
:::::::: at all. But I think the vast majority of cyclists will always
:::::::: be better served with a more conventional bike.
::::::::
::::::
:::::: What about as a second bike where when the first is a
:::::: conventional?
:::::
::::: This is OK as long as you NEVER mention the recumbent bicycle in a
::::: positive light on rec.bicycles.* or to someone in real life who
::::: rides an upright bicycle.
:::
::: I ride an upright! And I'm going to ride a recumbent, too! I
::: think the bike that better serves a person is the one a person
::: prefers to ride. I think I desire the experience of riding
::: different types of bikes and don't see why either of them can't
::: serve my needs.
::
:: Some of the regulars in rec.bicycles.tech do not consider recumbents
:: bicycles, and refuse to admit that recumbent bicycles can serve ANY
:: purpose.
::
::: I'm not sure why people choose to draw
::: this line in the sand, frankly. You would think that anyone who
::: claims to advocate cycling would prefer to see more of any kind of
::: functional bike on the road as opposed to another car!...
::
:: Some of the regulars in rec.bicycles.tech do not consider recumbents
:: bicycles, and refuse to admit that recumbent bicycles can serve ANY
:: purpose.
::
:: Nope, recumbent bicycles are PURELY EVIL AND MUST NOT BE TOLERATED!

Frankly, in all the time I've been posting here, I had NO idea of such a
division.

The most frequent anti-recumbent posts come from some of the people who
have overall posted the most messages to rec.bicycles.tech, so maybe
they feel a sense of entitlement as to what is proper discussion on the
group. However, I still have yet to see where in the charter for
rec.bicycles.tech recumbents are prohibited, or how they are not
bicycles within the accepted usage of the English language [1]. 99% of
the bicycle related posting is not good enough for them, apparently.

Quoted message said:

The only reason I posted
here in the *.misc group is because the *.bicycles.recumbent group seems to
be a troll playhouse.

Yes, Mr. Ed the Grate has accomplished on alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
what M*k* V*nd*m*n has done on rec.bicycles.soc, leaving the weak
willed to flee to moderated (i.e. stifled) forums.

Quoted message said:

This is very disappointing.

Well, I do not react well to being bullied and told to go away for
posts that are within the charter of the group. The humorous part is if
the anti-recumbent faction just ignored all recumbent posts, there
would be less of them, as these drawn out flame wars would not occur.

[1] Note that race sanctioning organizations are NOT arbiters of what
consists of a bicycle.

Then do not be bullied. You need not advertise your
intention. If you do not want to be treated like a
loser, then stop acting like one.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Johnny Sunset said:

Roger Zoul said:

Johnny Sunset wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: Johnny Sunset wrote:
::::: Roger Zoul wrote:
:::::: [email hidden] wrote:
:::::::: ...
:::::::: Disclaimer: I understand the appeal of recumbent bikes, for
:::::::: certain people's comfort, for interesting design challenges,
:::::::: and for specialized racing applications. I don't dislike them
:::::::: at all. But I think the vast majority of cyclists will always
:::::::: be better served with a more conventional bike.
::::::::
::::::
:::::: What about as a second bike where when the first is a
:::::: conventional?
:::::
::::: This is OK as long as you NEVER mention the recumbent bicycle in a
::::: positive light on rec.bicycles.* or to someone in real life who
::::: rides an upright bicycle.
:::
::: I ride an upright! And I'm going to ride a recumbent, too! I
::: think the bike that better serves a person is the one a person
::: prefers to ride. I think I desire the experience of riding
::: different types of bikes and don't see why either of them can't
::: serve my needs.
::
:: Some of the regulars in rec.bicycles.tech do not consider recumbents
:: bicycles, and refuse to admit that recumbent bicycles can serve ANY
:: purpose.
::
::: I'm not sure why people choose to draw
::: this line in the sand, frankly. You would think that anyone who
::: claims to advocate cycling would prefer to see more of any kind of
::: functional bike on the road as opposed to another car!...
::
:: Some of the regulars in rec.bicycles.tech do not consider recumbents
:: bicycles, and refuse to admit that recumbent bicycles can serve ANY
:: purpose.
::
:: Nope, recumbent bicycles are PURELY EVIL AND MUST NOT BE TOLERATED!

Frankly, in all the time I've been posting here, I had NO idea of such a
division.

The most frequent anti-recumbent posts come from some of the people who
have overall posted the most messages to rec.bicycles.tech, so maybe
they feel a sense of entitlement as to what is proper discussion on the
group. However, I still have yet to see where in the charter for
rec.bicycles.tech recumbents are prohibited, or how they are not
bicycles within the accepted usage of the English language [1]. 99% of
the bicycle related posting is not good enough for them, apparently.

Quoted message said:

The only reason I posted
here in the *.misc group is because the *.bicycles.recumbent group seems to
be a troll playhouse.

Yes, Mr. Ed the Grate has accomplished on alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
what M*k* V*nd*m*n has done on rec.bicycles.soc, leaving the weak
willed to flee to moderated (i.e. stifled) forums.

Quoted message said:

This is very disappointing.

Well, I do not react well to being bullied and told to go away for
posts that are within the charter of the group. The humorous part is if
the anti-recumbent faction just ignored all recumbent posts, there
would be less of them, as these drawn out flame wars would not occur.

[1] Note that race sanctioning organizations are NOT arbiters of what
consists of a bicycle.

Then do not be bullied. You need not advertise your
intention. If you do not want to be treated like a
loser, then stop acting like one.

Dude, if I was being bullied, I would be gone from the newsgroup. Duh!

--
Tom Sherman - If you think I am a jerk on Usenet...
Post Free or Die!

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>
,

Johnny Sunset said:

Roger Zoul said:

Johnny Sunset wrote:
:: Roger Zoul wrote:
::: [email hidden] wrote:
::::: ...
::::: Disclaimer: I understand the appeal of recumbent bikes, for
::::: certain people's comfort, for interesting design challenges, and
::::: for specialized racing applications. I don't dislike them at
::::: all. But I think the vast majority of cyclists will always be
::::: better served with a more conventional bike.
:::::
:::
::: What about as a second bike where when the first is a conventional?
::
:: This is OK as long as you NEVER mention the recumbent bicycle in a
:: positive light on rec.bicycles.* or to someone in real life who rides
:: an upright bicycle.

I ride an upright! And I'm going to ride a recumbent, too! I think the bike
that better serves a person is the one a person prefers to ride. I think I
desire the experience of riding different types of bikes and don't see why
either of them can't serve my needs.

Some of the regulars in rec.bicycles.tech do not consider recumbents
bicycles, and refuse to admit that recumbent bicycles can serve ANY
purpose.

Quoted message said:

I'm not sure why people choose to draw
this line in the sand, frankly. You would think that anyone who claims to
advocate cycling would prefer to see more of any kind of functional bike on
the road as opposed to another car!...

Some of the regulars in rec.bicycles.tech do not consider recumbents
bicycles, and refuse to admit that recumbent bicycles can serve ANY
purpose.

Nope, recumbent bicycles are PURELY EVIL AND MUST NOT BE TOLERATED!

How about you address directly any slights to the
slighting party? Or go back to
alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent where this belongs.

WHERE IN THE rec.bicycles.tech CHARTER DOES IT LIMIT DISCUSSON TO ONLY
UPRIGHT BICYCLES?

--
Tom Sherman - If you think I am a jerk on Usenet...
Post Free or Die!

Johnny Sunset said:

I am not bothered by these comments

So unbothered, in fact, that you avoid rides where you might
hear them, and want everyone on usenet to know it.

--
Home page: http://members.westnet.com.au/mvw

In article <[email hidden]>,

Johnny Sunset said:

Quoted message said:

Of course that would alienate us from Society,
but ... screw Society, right? We can march off
independently to the beats of our own drummers &
pipers. You on your recumbent, and me on my
ugly rig that "real bike riders" disdain,

I always thought that people riding bicycles for transportation were
the real cyclists, not the ones playing on "toys".

Bicycling on any sort of bicycle configuration doesn't need
any justification or rationalisation AFIC. I guess it's a
binary thing -- you're riding, or ya ain't. You're a cyclist,
or ya ain't. Plain & simple. We riders don't need to tear
ourselves apart with silly enmity and divisiveness, we need to
stand together and be supportive and inclusive of each other,
from the retired couples toodling around park paths, to the
commuters bombing down urban arterials, to the coffee shop
trendies, to the hell-bent-for-leather racers in their yellow &
black killer bee costumes, to escapee tourers, to the folks who
just plain ride to get around. But all too often, we ourselves
are our worst enemies. We pedal-pushers are all linked. We
share common interests and common experiences. I think that's
something to joyously celebrate, but unfortunately some
party-poopers think otherwise.

Oh, well. The party-poopers ye shall always have among you.

But y'know what? Out on the streets in real life is pretty
different from here in UseNetLand. When I'm out & about on
ol' Pig Iron, I get into all kinds of nice interactions with
fellow riders and other people (including some downright pretty
and charming women.) And my ugly rig even occasionally gets
compliments from folks whom it nostalgically reminds of bicycles
back in "the old country" (wherever that may be.) So, I take my
"screw Society" back. Screw party-poopers! Double screw 'em!

Keep the human-powered, self-propelled faith.
Let your smile be a fairing.
And please don't let a bunch of stupid words get you down.

Cheers & a flick o' the forelock from one Bicycle Rider to another,
Tom

--
-- "You are sentenced to hang by the neck until you cheer up."
-- from Monty Python's Flying Circus
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

Tom Keats wrote:
:: In article <[email hidden]>,
:: "Johnny Sunset" <[email hidden]> writes:
::
:::: Of course that would alienate us from Society,
:::: but ... screw Society, right? We can march off
:::: independently to the beats of our own drummers &
:::: pipers. You on your recumbent, and me on my
:::: ugly rig that "real bike riders" disdain,
:::
::: I always thought that people riding bicycles for transportation were
::: the real cyclists, not the ones playing on "toys".
::
:: Bicycling on any sort of bicycle configuration doesn't need
:: any justification or rationalisation AFIC. I guess it's a
:: binary thing -- you're riding, or ya ain't. You're a cyclist,
:: or ya ain't. Plain & simple. We riders don't need to tear
:: ourselves apart with silly enmity and divisiveness, we need to
:: stand together and be supportive and inclusive of each other,
:: from the retired couples toodling around park paths, to the
:: commuters bombing down urban arterials, to the coffee shop
:: trendies, to the hell-bent-for-leather racers in their yellow &
:: black killer bee costumes, to escapee tourers, to the folks who
:: just plain ride to get around. But all too often, we ourselves
:: are our worst enemies. We pedal-pushers are all linked. We
:: share common interests and common experiences. I think that's
:: something to joyously celebrate, but unfortunately some
:: party-poopers think otherwise.
::
:: Oh, well. The party-poopers ye shall always have among you.
::
:: But y'know what? Out on the streets in real life is pretty
:: different from here in UseNetLand. When I'm out & about on
:: ol' Pig Iron, I get into all kinds of nice interactions with
:: fellow riders and other people (including some downright pretty
:: and charming women.) And my ugly rig even occasionally gets
:: compliments from folks whom it nostalgically reminds of bicycles
:: back in "the old country" (wherever that may be.) So, I take my
:: "screw Society" back. Screw party-poopers! Double screw 'em!
::
:: Keep the human-powered, self-propelled faith.
:: Let your smile be a fairing.
:: And please don't let a bunch of stupid words get you down.
::
::
:: Cheers & a flick o' the forelock from one Bicycle Rider to another,
::

Hear Hear!

In article <[email hidden]>,

Roger Zoul said:

Tom Keats wrote:

[much gratuitous snippage]

Quoted message said:

:: We riders don't need to tear
:: ourselves apart with silly enmity and divisiveness, we need to
:: stand together and be supportive and inclusive of each other

Quoted message said:

Hear Hear!

Well, yeah. It's hurtful to us all when cylists pick on
each other. I've seen such things happen among chickens.
We should be above that. We're supposed to be more civilized
and brainially-developed than a bunch of hen-pecking chickens.

cheers,
Tom

--
-- Nothing is safe from me.
Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

In rec.bicycles.misc Johnny Sunset said:

I have no interest in converting anyone who enjoys riding their upright
bicycle(s) to recumbents.

Yup, and I've never had a problem with your posts. I consider DougC on
the other hand as a textbook case of evangelizing asshat. People like
him are found in every branch of human endeavor, whether it's Linux,
BSD, Windows, HPVs, Gaming consoles, RPGs (pen and paper) or something
else. I'd have to say that people like him are the number one reason
I've become *less* interested in recumbents though.

Quoted message said:

[2] affects the upright riders. Obviously, a recumbent would not fit in a
paceline well.

We've had recumbents out for my groups evening rides without problems.
But then we're more likely to resemble flocking birds than pacelining
racers.

--
Dane Buson - [email hidden]
A Difficulty for Every Solution.
-- Motto of the Federal Civil Service

In article
<[email hidden]>
,

Johnny Sunset said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>
,

Johnny Sunset said:

Roger Zoul wrote:
> Johnny Sunset wrote:
> :: Roger Zoul wrote:
> ::: [email hidden] wrote:
> ::::: ...
> ::::: Disclaimer: I understand the appeal of recumbent bikes, for
> ::::: certain people's comfort, for interesting design challenges, and
> ::::: for specialized racing applications. I don't dislike them at
> ::::: all. But I think the vast majority of cyclists will always be
> ::::: better served with a more conventional bike.
> :::::
> :::
> ::: What about as a second bike where when the first is a conventional?
> ::
> :: This is OK as long as you NEVER mention the recumbent bicycle in a
> :: positive light on rec.bicycles.* or to someone in real life who rides
> :: an upright bicycle.
>
> I ride an upright! And I'm going to ride a recumbent, too! I think the bike
> that better serves a person is the one a person prefers to ride. I think I
> desire the experience of riding different types of bikes and don't see why
> either of them can't serve my needs.

Some of the regulars in rec.bicycles.tech do not consider recumbents
bicycles, and refuse to admit that recumbent bicycles can serve ANY
purpose.

> I'm not sure why people choose to draw
> this line in the sand, frankly. You would think that anyone who claims to
> advocate cycling would prefer to see more of any kind of functional bike on
> the road as opposed to another car!...

Some of the regulars in rec.bicycles.tech do not consider recumbents
bicycles, and refuse to admit that recumbent bicycles can serve ANY
purpose.

Nope, recumbent bicycles are PURELY EVIL AND MUST NOT BE TOLERATED!

How about you address directly any slights to the
slighting party? Or go back to
alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent where this belongs.

WHERE IN THE rec.bicycles.tech CHARTER DOES IT LIMIT DISCUSSON TO ONLY
UPRIGHT BICYCLES?

You whine about how _some_ people mistreat you. Take it
up with them. Shotgun accusations of mistreatment are
never on topic.

--
Michael Press

Michael Warner said:

Johnny Sunset said:

I am not bothered by these comments

So unbothered, in fact, that you avoid rides where you might
hear them, and want everyone on usenet to know it.

WHOOSH!

It is not that I would be bothered, but that I would be showing up
where I was not wanted. I see no reason to unnecessarily aggravate
people in real life.

Try to have a less self-centered outlook.

--
Tom Sherman - Post Free or Die!