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Two wheels does it

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Road Cycling
Published
31 October 2006
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7 November 2006
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  1. jj1075 said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    It's not just Jobst and a bike shop owner in Boulder, believe me.

    I am still waiting for someone to point out where in the
    rec.bicycles.tech charter it prohibits mention of recumbent bicycles.

    Isn't there already a newsgroup specifically for recumbents?

    Just wonderin'.......

    Is this
    rec.bicycles.upright.diamond-frame.non-folding.700C&27-inch.wheels.tech?

    This thread is good - it brings to light the hatred and intolerance for
    things that are different.

    --
    Tom Sherman - If you think I am a jerk on Usenet...

  2. Victor Kan wrote:
    :: Roger Zoul wrote:
    ::: [email hidden] wrote:
    ::::: No option of pedaling while standing, a huge
    ::::: disadvantage for anything moderately steep.
    :::::
    ::
    ::: Noted! I did realize this point. Sometimes on my upright I will
    ::: stand while climbing and I'll also stand on the pedals to coast on
    ::: a flat or downhill. So those are without doubt advantages of
    ::: uprights over bents.
    ::
    :: The standard response to that is that with a recumbent you can press
    :: your back against the seat and essentially do leg presses against the
    :: pedals as an alternative to climbing out of the saddle.

    Interesting. I don't yet have enough experience to really have a feel for
    this. I do leg presses at the gym and the hills I did climb didn't feel
    like a leg press, but perhaps steepness is a factor! That 45 deg leg press
    would be a seriously sloping hill! 🙂

    ::
    :: As Pat Robertson showed, leg presses can move a lot of weight :-):
    ::
    :: http://www.slate.com/id/2142567/

    Wow...something seems strange there...very strange.

    ::
    ::: However, I'm not sure that means I'll always be slower on climbs,
    ::: though I do see that bents are naturally at a disadvantage there.
    ::: I'd guess on a century with lots of climbing that I'd end up being
    ::: slower.
    ::
    :: Personally, I don't use the leg press technique when climbing on my
    :: recumbent. I tend to gear down and spin without noticeably pushing
    :: against the seat back more.

    I thought this was the accepted and approved method of climbing! 🙂

    ::
    :: Climbing steeper inclines is definitely less satisfying on my
    :: recumbent bikes than it is on my DF bikes (my fixed gear with a
    :: 35-559, 48x18 gear is especially satisfying). I tend not to be able
    :: to get my heart rate up into a good climbing zone. One one
    :: particularly steep/long climb last year though, I managed to go
    :: beyond my comfort zone on a climb on my recumbent and felt like [censored]
    :: later in the day (though zooming down that climb on my way home was
    :: very satisfying).
    ::

    'Bents seem to like to accelerate like crazy on the downhill.

  3. Johnny Sunset said:
    G.T. said:

    "Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    G.T. wrote:
    > Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman wrote:
    >> Roger Zoul wrote:
    >>> [email hidden] wrote:
    >>> :: Skip over the recumbents in this web site, they don't count as
    >>> :: logistical vehicles.
    >>> ::
    >>> :: http://aistigave.hit.bg/Logistics/
    >>> ::
    >>> :: Jobst Brandt
    >>>
    >>> I didn't see any recumbents and don't understand why they don't


    count.

    Quoted message said:

    >>> Please explain.
    >> Jobst Brandt [1] and I have orthogonal positions (literally) when it
    >> comes to appropriate riding position on a bicycle. Jobst and a bike
    >> shop owner in Boulder, Colorado [2] get cranky when the word
    >> "r*c*mb*nt" is used on rec.bicycles.*.
    > It's not just Jobst and a bike shop owner in Boulder, believe me.
    I am still waiting for someone to point out where in the
    rec.bicycles.tech charter it prohibits mention of recumbent bicycles.


    It should be self-evident that r.b.t. is for discussing bicycles, not those
    funky ass monstrosities. Just because you tack on bicycles to recumbent
    doesn't make them so.

    Try looking up the definition of bicycle in a dictionary.

    I can't read but I do see a photo of a bike very similar to mine next to
    the letters b i c y c l e in this dictionary thingie I'm holding here.

    Greg

    --
    "All my time I spent in heaven
    Revelries of dance and wine
    Waking to the sound of laughter
    Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

  4. G.T. said:

    "Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman" <[email hidden]> wrote in
    message news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    I am still waiting for someone to point out where in the
    rec.bicycles.tech charter it prohibits mention of recumbent bicycles.

    Quoted message said:

    It should be self-evident that r.b.t. is for discussing bicycles, not
    those funky ass monstrosities. Just because you tack on bicycles to
    recumbent doesn't make them so.

    Finally, some harsh, self-righteous anger I can get behind! <eg>

  5. Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    Isn't there already a newsgroup specifically for recumbents?

    Just wonderin'.......

    Is this
    rec.bicycles.upright.diamond-frame.non-folding.700C&27-inch.wheels.tech?

    This thread is good - it brings to light the hatred and intolerance for
    things that are different.

    --
    Tom Sherman - If you think I am a jerk on Usenet...<<

    Uhhh, I was actually just asking. You implied the rest. And you didn't
    answer the question.

    Thanks for the tolerance...

    jj1075 < I thought I saw an NG for recumbents once but figured my new ISP
    didn't carry it>

  6. [email hidden] wrote:
    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    As a sidelight, recumbent motorcycles are practically unknown.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

    "Practically unknown" as in "published in mainstream motorcycle
    magazines"?:
    http://www.allamericanracers.com/alligator/cycle-world11-00.html
    also
    http://www.allamericanracers.com/alligator/alligator_home.html ...

    Not that I've seen one 'round Portland, which seems to be almost as
    motorcycle-mad as bicycle-mad.

    Come to think of it, I haven't seen one of these around Portland,
    either:
    http://www.bikeweb.com/node/378

    Jeff

  7. In article
    <[email hidden]>,

    jj1075 said:
    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    > Isn't there already a newsgroup specifically for recumbents?

    Just wonderin'.......

    Is this
    rec.bicycles.upright.diamond-frame.non-folding.700C&27-inch.wheels.tech?

    This thread is good - it brings to light the hatred and intolerance for
    things that are different.

    There is one; it is a rogues' gallery. I'd sooner read
    rec.games.chess.politics.

    --
    Michael Press

  8. Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:
    Qui si parla Campagnolo aka Mr. Peter Chisholm said:
    Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman said:

    Roger Zoul wrote:
    > [email hidden] wrote:
    > :: Skip over the recumbents in this web site, they don't count as
    > :: logistical vehicles.
    > ::
    > :: http://aistigave.hit.bg/Logistics/
    > ::
    > :: Jobst Brandt
    >
    > I didn't see any recumbents and don't understand why they don't count.
    > Please explain.

    Jobst Brandt [1] and I have orthogonal positions (literally) when it
    comes to appropriate riding position on a bicycle. Jobst and a bike
    shop owner in Boulder, Colorado [2] get cranky when the word
    "r*c*mb*nt" is used on rec.bicycles.*.

    I suggest ignoring Jobst's and Peter's anti-r*c*mb*nt comments unless
    you are a Usenet crank that likes contentious debate [3].

    [1] <http://yarchive.net/bike/recumbent.html>.
    [2] < http://www.vecchios.com/>.
    [3] Hey, I resemble that remark.

    hear, hear!!! But, there ya go again, the mention of 'bent doesn't get
    me cranky, YOU mentioning just about anything about anything, gets me
    cranky.

    Until rec.bicycles.tech becomes moderated and you [Mr. Chisholm] are
    appointed moderator - DEAL WITH IT!

    --
    Tom Sherman - If you think I am a jerk on Usenet...

    Since I continue to answer you, why I just don't know, I guess I am
    'dealing with it'. Are you directing me to moderate my view of you,
    not be cranky? Nope, not today, not tomorrow. As you mentioned about
    yourself, you like to argue, so do I with some people. If I get cranky
    with you, well....deal with it.

  9. JeffWills said:

    [email hidden] wrote:
    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    As a sidelight, recumbent motorcycles are practically unknown.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

    "Practically unknown" as in "published in mainstream motorcycle
    magazines"?:
    http://www.allamericanracers.com/alligator/cycle-world11-00.html

    ISTM that appearance in a magazine doesn't disprove "practically
    unknown." Popular Mechanics still has "flying car" and "amphibious
    car" articles from time to time. But what percentage of the cars
    you've seen double as planes or boats?

    The closest you'll come to a recumbent motorcycle is a radical chopper
    with highway pegs. But it's interesting that people who want motorized
    two wheelers with real performance and versatility - not mere style -
    ride with their body weight up and centered over their legs.

    Disclaimer: I understand the appeal of recumbent bikes, for certain
    people's comfort, for interesting design challenges, and for
    specialized racing applications. I don't dislike them at all. But I
    think the vast majority of cyclists will always be better served with a
    more conventional bike.

    - Frank Krygowski

  10. Mike Kruger said:

    This is at least in part because I live in Illinois. In Illinois this year
    they converted the tolls roads so you no longer stop for tolls if you have a
    transponder (probably RFID based, but I haven't looked into it). It's
    probably only a matter of time before currently free expressways are
    converted to this. The city of Chicago also sold one expressway (the Chicago
    Skyway, Interstate 90) to a private firm.

    If people want to talk about Orwellianisms, this is a good place to
    start. The toll systems in Houston use cameras to capture your license
    plate as you pass through. They originally said this was done to catch
    folks running the gates without transpnders. But the ugly truth has
    come to light.

    They mandate one transponder per vehicle (with a maintenance fee per
    transponder). If you move the transponder to another vehicle, they send
    you a dirty letter about moving your transponder. How do they know? The
    cameras capture the license plate of *every* vehicle, digitize it
    through optical character recognition, and compare the transponder
    number to the digitized license plate number. If the numbers don't
    match, you get a dirty letter.

    Also keep in mind that they can track your progress around the toll
    road. It won't be long before they start matching times so they can
    automatically issue speeding tickets (as is the case with the Turner
    Turnpike between Oklahoma City and Tulsa). As more readers are added,
    vehicles can be tracked with greater precision.

    Of course, there are very real concerns about tracking consumers and
    products through ID tags. Just take a look at these links:

    http://news.com.com/2010-1069-980325.html
    http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/14.05/rfid.html
    http://www.nocards.org/welcome/index.shtml

    But, of course this is WAAAAAAYYYYYY off-topic. At least until they
    start tracking cyclists and charging user's fees for paths.

    -Buck

  11. JeffWills said:


    [email hidden] wrote:
    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    As a sidelight, recumbent motorcycles are practically unknown.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

    "Practically unknown" as in "published in mainstream motorcycle
    magazines"?:
    http://www.allamericanracers.com/alligator/cycle-world11-00.html
    also
    http://www.allamericanracers.com/alligator/alligator_home.html ...

    Not that I've seen one 'round Portland, which seems to be almost as
    motorcycle-mad as bicycle-mad.

    Come to think of it, I haven't seen one of these around Portland,
    either:
    http://www.bikeweb.com/node/378

    Jeff

    Dear Jeff,

    At a proposed 36-unit production level, the Alligator may still be
    lurking down in the "practically unknown" levels of the enormous
    motorcycle swamp.

    🙂

    I like the first picture, which shows how the rider's face will be
    stuck in the carburetor intakes.

    Cheers,

    Carl Fogel

  12. [email hidden] wrote:
    :: JeffWills wrote:
    ::: [email hidden] wrote:
    ::: <snip>
    :::: As a sidelight, recumbent motorcycles are practically unknown.
    ::::
    :::: Cheers,
    ::::
    :::: Carl Fogel
    :::
    ::: "Practically unknown" as in "published in mainstream motorcycle
    ::: magazines"?:
    ::: http://www.allamericanracers.com/alligator/cycle-world11-00.html
    ::
    :: ISTM that appearance in a magazine doesn't disprove "practically
    :: unknown." Popular Mechanics still has "flying car" and "amphibious
    :: car" articles from time to time. But what percentage of the cars
    :: you've seen double as planes or boats?
    ::
    :: The closest you'll come to a recumbent motorcycle is a radical
    :: chopper with highway pegs. But it's interesting that people who
    :: want motorized two wheelers with real performance and versatility -
    :: not mere style - ride with their body weight up and centered over
    :: their legs.
    ::
    :: Disclaimer: I understand the appeal of recumbent bikes, for certain
    :: people's comfort, for interesting design challenges, and for
    :: specialized racing applications. I don't dislike them at all. But I
    :: think the vast majority of cyclists will always be better served
    :: with a more conventional bike.
    ::

    What about as a second bike where when the first is a conventional?

  13. Roger Zoul said:

    [email hidden] wrote:

    ::
    :: Disclaimer: I understand the appeal of recumbent bikes, for certain
    :: people's comfort, for interesting design challenges, and for
    :: specialized racing applications. I don't dislike them at all. But I
    :: think the vast majority of cyclists will always be better served
    :: with a more conventional bike.
    ::

    What about as a second bike where when the first is a conventional?

    Um... fine... In general, do what you like.

    But ISTM your question doesn't quite match my statement. If someone
    wants a recumbent as their _only_ bike, that's fine for me. If they
    want it as a second bike, that's fine. And the same can be said for
    unicycles, penny farthings, folding bikes, fixed gear bikes, etc.
    There can be times and places for all these.

    I just think more conventional bikes will continue to serve almost all
    people best, almost all the time.

    - Frank Krygowski

  14. Frank Krygowski said:

    ...
    Disclaimer: I understand the appeal of recumbent bikes, for certain
    people's comfort, for interesting design challenges, and for
    specialized racing applications. I don't dislike them at all. But I
    think the vast majority of cyclists will always be better served with a
    more conventional bike.

    Would you find a couple dozen posts per month about recumbent bicycles
    offensive in a Usenet newsgroup that has approximately 5000 posts per
    month?

    --
    Tom Sherman - If you think I am a jerk on Usenet...

  15. Roger Zoul said:

    [email hidden] wrote:
    :: JeffWills wrote:
    ::: [email hidden] wrote:
    ::: <snip>
    :::: As a sidelight, recumbent motorcycles are practically unknown.
    ::::
    :::: Cheers,
    ::::
    :::: Carl Fogel
    :::
    ::: "Practically unknown" as in "published in mainstream motorcycle
    ::: magazines"?:
    ::: http://www.allamericanracers.com/alligator/cycle-world11-00.html
    ::
    :: ISTM that appearance in a magazine doesn't disprove "practically
    :: unknown." Popular Mechanics still has "flying car" and "amphibious
    :: car" articles from time to time. But what percentage of the cars
    :: you've seen double as planes or boats?
    ::
    :: The closest you'll come to a recumbent motorcycle is a radical
    :: chopper with highway pegs. But it's interesting that people who
    :: want motorized two wheelers with real performance and versatility -
    :: not mere style - ride with their body weight up and centered over
    :: their legs.
    ::
    :: Disclaimer: I understand the appeal of recumbent bikes, for certain
    :: people's comfort, for interesting design challenges, and for
    :: specialized racing applications. I don't dislike them at all. But I
    :: think the vast majority of cyclists will always be better served
    :: with a more conventional bike.
    ::

    What about as a second bike where when the first is a conventional?

    This is OK as long as you NEVER mention the recumbent bicycle in a
    positive light on rec.bicycles.* or to someone in real life who rides
    an upright bicycle.

    --
    Tom Sherman - If you think I am a jerk on Usenet...

  16. Johnny Sunset said:
    Frank Krygowski said:

    ...
    Disclaimer: I understand the appeal of recumbent bikes, for certain
    people's comfort, for interesting design challenges, and for
    specialized racing applications. I don't dislike them at all. But I
    think the vast majority of cyclists will always be better served with a
    more conventional bike.

    Would you find a couple dozen posts per month about recumbent bicycles
    offensive in a Usenet newsgroup that has approximately 5000 posts per
    month?

    Nope. Not me.

    Heck, if I want to take offense, there are lots richer opportunities!

    - Frank Krygowski

  17. Quoted message said:

    Um... fine... In general, do what you like.

    But ISTM your question doesn't quite match my statement. If someone
    wants a recumbent as their _only_ bike, that's fine for me. If they
    want it as a second bike, that's fine. And the same can be said for
    unicycles, penny farthings, folding bikes, fixed gear bikes, etc.
    There can be times and places for all these.

    I just think more conventional bikes will continue to serve almost all
    people best, almost all the time.

    - Frank Krygowski

    Well... I have seven-ish bikes- 3 uprights, two incomplete projects
    (both upright), and two recumbents. I'll switch off to whatever suits
    my intended route or activity for the day. Since the Tour Easy has
    fenders and a fairing, I rode it in today's showers.

    My wife, though, is a woman of strong opinions. I've tried to get her
    to try riding different uprights since switching, with no success.
    She's not giving up her Tour Easy, no way, no how. She also has her own
    opinions about appropriate cycling clothing:
    http://home.pacifier.com/~jwills/diane-big.jpg

    Jeff

  18. JeffWills wrote:
    :: [email hidden] wrote:
    ::: Um... fine... In general, do what you like.
    :::
    ::: But ISTM your question doesn't quite match my statement. If someone
    ::: wants a recumbent as their _only_ bike, that's fine for me. If they
    ::: want it as a second bike, that's fine. And the same can be said for
    ::: unicycles, penny farthings, folding bikes, fixed gear bikes, etc.
    ::: There can be times and places for all these.
    :::
    ::: I just think more conventional bikes will continue to serve almost
    ::: all people best, almost all the time.
    :::
    ::: - Frank Krygowski
    ::
    :: Well... I have seven-ish bikes- 3 uprights, two incomplete projects
    :: (both upright), and two recumbents. I'll switch off to whatever suits
    :: my intended route or activity for the day. Since the Tour Easy has
    :: fenders and a fairing, I rode it in today's showers.
    ::
    :: My wife, though, is a woman of strong opinions. I've tried to get her
    :: to try riding different uprights since switching, with no success.
    :: She's not giving up her Tour Easy, no way, no how. She also has her
    :: own opinions about appropriate cycling clothing:
    :: http://home.pacifier.com/~jwills/diane-big.jpg
    ::

    Your wife looks totally cool on that machine, Jeff. It's hard to believe
    that any other bike would serve her better than the one she most prefers to
    ride!

  19. Johnny Sunset wrote:
    :: Roger Zoul wrote:
    ::: [email hidden] wrote:
    ::::: JeffWills wrote:
    :::::: [email hidden] wrote:
    :::::: <snip>
    ::::::: As a sidelight, recumbent motorcycles are practically unknown.
    :::::::
    ::::::: Cheers,
    :::::::
    ::::::: Carl Fogel
    ::::::
    :::::: "Practically unknown" as in "published in mainstream motorcycle
    :::::: magazines"?:
    :::::: http://www.allamericanracers.com/alligator/cycle-world11-00.html
    :::::
    ::::: ISTM that appearance in a magazine doesn't disprove "practically
    ::::: unknown." Popular Mechanics still has "flying car" and
    ::::: "amphibious car" articles from time to time. But what percentage
    ::::: of the cars you've seen double as planes or boats?
    :::::
    ::::: The closest you'll come to a recumbent motorcycle is a radical
    ::::: chopper with highway pegs. But it's interesting that people who
    ::::: want motorized two wheelers with real performance and versatility
    ::::: - not mere style - ride with their body weight up and centered
    ::::: over their legs.
    :::::
    ::::: Disclaimer: I understand the appeal of recumbent bikes, for
    ::::: certain people's comfort, for interesting design challenges, and
    ::::: for specialized racing applications. I don't dislike them at
    ::::: all. But I think the vast majority of cyclists will always be
    ::::: better served with a more conventional bike.
    :::::
    :::
    ::: What about as a second bike where when the first is a conventional?
    ::
    :: This is OK as long as you NEVER mention the recumbent bicycle in a
    :: positive light on rec.bicycles.* or to someone in real life who rides
    :: an upright bicycle.

    I ride an upright! And I'm going to ride a recumbent, too! I thinkthe bike
    that better serves a person is the one a person prefers to ride. I think I
    desire the experience of riding different types of bikes and don't see why
    either of them can't serve my needs. I'm not sure why people choose to draw
    this line in the sand, frankly. You would think that anyone who claims to
    advocate cycling would prefer to see more of any kind of functional bike on
    the road as opposed to another car!

    Today, I rode the Stratus XP XL - one in the size I'm going to buy (they
    only had the standard size before). This one is actually for another
    customer who had given his permission for me to ride it. He had it outfitted
    with Velocity rims, fat 1.5-inch tires, and had a 24-tooth small ring on
    front! I didn't really have a hill handy at the LBS that would need a small
    ring like that, but he lives in Charlotte, NC and there must be plenty of
    hills around there as here (Greenville, SC). The fats gave the rig a very
    different feel (it felt edgier if that makes any sense) from the 26s on the
    standard, but having the extra room seemed to be a good thing for me since
    the seat didn't have to extend all the way back. Sadly, I've already fallen
    in love with this bike. They are saying they could have one for me in by
    next week!

    I also rode a Formula V2. This one is similar to the SXP but the BB is much
    higher. Unfortunately, the model they had in stock is standard size, not XL,
    and with the higher BB, I felt very cramped on it. I did ride it, though,
    enough to get a feel for it. Climbing on it seems to use more of the glutes
    than the XP does. I have to admit that I felt was using more leg muscles on
    both of these than on my upright while climbing. I have big legs and I bet
    they'd get a serious workout on a serious hill (or, on many serious hills as
    we tend to have here) Also, the FV2 felt a bit twitcher than the SXP in both
    the standard and XL size. I felt a lot more comfortable on the standard size
    SXP than on the standard size FV2. Finally, my right knee started hurting
    after riding the FV2. I rode the SXP standard last weekend for a good while
    with no knee discomfort - same for the SXP XL, which I rode yesterday before
    riding the FV2 Standard.

    One thing I did notice....I could not hug the edge of the road on either of
    these bikes, especially while climbing. I needed a much greater margin from
    the edge than I do on my upright. Perhaps this is an experience (time in the
    saddle?). Also, the FV2 had a fairing (not clear plastic) on it initially.
    It seems to block the view of the road based on how the seat was inclined. I
    definitely would NOT like have like a 20-foot blind spot in front of my
    while riding.

    So, where I stand now....I can probably get a SXP XL next week (they would
    be rushing this for me). But they also have a FV2 XL coming in next week
    already! The FV2 is about $300 less than the SXP. The FV2 has disc brakes,
    but I can add those to the SXP for about $100. Would disc brakes be
    something I might want - at 225 lbs?

    Oh...these bikes don't seem to come with a standard place to put water
    bottles! What's up with that? It seems as if I have to rig something to
    place water bottles. That seems wrong, IMO.

  20. Roger Zoul said:


    I ride an upright! And I'm going to ride a recumbent, too! I think the bike
    that better serves a person is the one a person prefers to ride.

    Oddly, there's more to it than that!

    The bike that best serves a person certainly depends on the riding, but
    (perhaps) also on other factors - like the portability, the
    repairability, the weather protection, the luggage capacity, the
    ability to handle bad surfaces, etc. etc.

    For just a recreational ride, I prefer my old touring bike. But during
    a long vacation trip this summer, I preferred my folding bike. For
    commuting, I prefer the bike fitted with lights, fenders, racks, bags,
    etc.

    Those of us committed to cycling often have a small collection of
    bikes, so we can have special bikes for special purposes. But most
    people get by with one bike - if that. For them, versatility is
    important, maybe more so than certain aspects of the riding itself.

    - Frank Krygowski

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