TTT rules silliness

A rider can't lose 5 minutes, the max time loss is 2:30.... I know, still a
bunch....

"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Here's the rules on CN:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=stages/stage4

The official page lists the rules here:
http://www.letour.com/2004/us/index.html

A r t i c l e 2 4 - Team time trials
Teams start their team time trial at 5 minute intervals in the reverse

order of the team ranking established following the 3rd stage. [...]

Quoted message said:

The stage ranking is established for each of the teams based on the

finishing time of the 5th rider in each team (to the nearest hundredth of a
second). An identical time is given to all teammates who arrive within this
same time, even if they actually finish

Quoted message said:

quicker.
The procedure for establishing the general individual time ranking is as

follows: Times for all riders are calculated according to the gap between
them and the 5th man of the winning team (scratch time).

Quoted message said:

If this gap is less than that given in the table below, then the actual

time recorded by the timekeepers will be taken.

Quoted message said:

If the gap is more than that given in the table below, then the rider will

receive the time of the winning team plus the additional number of seconds
indicated in the table below according to the place of their team.[...]

Quoted message said:

Riders who arrive on their own after the 5th rider in their team will be

credited for the general ranking with the actual time they took to complete
the stage.

Quoted message said:

However, riders finishing outside of the permitted finishing times

(coefficient 6) will be disqualified.

Quoted message said:

As far as the general team ranking is concerned, the actual time of the

5th man in each team will be the time recorded for this ranking. [...]

Quoted message said:

The cited table is missing. However, CN claims it is 10 seconds per place

to 15th, 5 seconds per place after that.

Quoted message said:

This needs serious work. Consider the following:

Team A: 70:00 (all riders A0-A8)
Team B: 75:00 (riders B0-7)
Team B: 75:01 (rider B8)
Team C: 80 minutes (all riders C0-C8)

Individual GC from this stage:
A0-A8: 70:00
B0-B7: @ :10
C0-C8: @ :20
B8 : @ 5:01

Huh? The guy finishes 1 second back from his team, and loses 5 minutes
as a result? Mind the gaps, guys.

This is an extreme example. However, it could easily occur that a 1

second

Quoted message said:

gap results in losses of more than a minute.

For 2005 an additional rule is needed -- no rider can lose more time

relative to

Quoted message said:

his team time than the actual difference in time between the rider and the

team.

Quoted message said:

But this is really too complicated. If they want to cap the time gaps, do
a numerical transform on the times. Calculate times the old fashion way.
The winning team gets its time. For the remaining teams, a transformed

time

Quoted message said:

gap dt' is calculated from the actual time gap dt, as follows:

exp[2 dt/t0] - 1
dt' = -------------------- t0
exp[2 dt/t0] + 1

with t0 = 2.5 minutes, for example.

This would yield the following conversion:

dt dt'
(s) (s)
0 0
1 1
5 5
10 10
20 20
30 30
60 57
120 100
180 125
240 138
300 145
600 150

Too complicated? Hardly, compared to the existing rules. One step. Go

faster, score better.

Quoted message said:

That's not so complicated.

Dan

Im sorry, I owe a correction. Its that the Team can't lose more than
3:00min. Lagging riders can lose as much as much time as they fall behind.
Hang onto that wheel ahead of you right?

"vernon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

A rider can't lose 5 minutes, the max time loss is 2:30.... I know, still

a

Quoted message said:

bunch....

"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Here's the rules on CN:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=stages/stage4

The official page lists the rules here:
http://www.letour.com/2004/us/index.html

A r t i c l e 2 4 - Team time trials
Teams start their team time trial at 5 minute intervals in the reverse

order of the team ranking established following the 3rd stage. [...]

Quoted message said:

The stage ranking is established for each of the teams based on the

finishing time of the 5th rider in each team (to the nearest hundredth of

a

Quoted message said:

second). An identical time is given to all teammates who arrive within

this

Quoted message said:

same time, even if they actually finish

Quoted message said:

quicker.
The procedure for establishing the general individual time ranking is as

follows: Times for all riders are calculated according to the gap between
them and the 5th man of the winning team (scratch time).

Quoted message said:

If this gap is less than that given in the table below, then the actual

time recorded by the timekeepers will be taken.

Quoted message said:

If the gap is more than that given in the table below, then the rider

will

Quoted message said:

receive the time of the winning team plus the additional number of seconds
indicated in the table below according to the place of their team.[...]

Quoted message said:

Riders who arrive on their own after the 5th rider in their team will be

credited for the general ranking with the actual time they took to

complete

Quoted message said:

the stage.

Quoted message said:

However, riders finishing outside of the permitted finishing times

(coefficient 6) will be disqualified.

Quoted message said:

As far as the general team ranking is concerned, the actual time of the

5th man in each team will be the time recorded for this ranking. [...]

Quoted message said:

The cited table is missing. However, CN claims it is 10 seconds per

place

Quoted message said:

to 15th, 5 seconds per place after that.

Quoted message said:

This needs serious work. Consider the following:

Team A: 70:00 (all riders A0-A8)
Team B: 75:00 (riders B0-7)
Team B: 75:01 (rider B8)
Team C: 80 minutes (all riders C0-C8)

Individual GC from this stage:
A0-A8: 70:00
B0-B7: @ :10
C0-C8: @ :20
B8 : @ 5:01

Huh? The guy finishes 1 second back from his team, and loses 5 minutes
as a result? Mind the gaps, guys.

This is an extreme example. However, it could easily occur that a 1

second

Quoted message said:

gap results in losses of more than a minute.

For 2005 an additional rule is needed -- no rider can lose more time

relative to

Quoted message said:

his team time than the actual difference in time between the rider and

the

Quoted message said:

team.

Quoted message said:

But this is really too complicated. If they want to cap the time gaps,

do

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a numerical transform on the times. Calculate times the old fashion

way.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The winning team gets its time. For the remaining teams, a transformed

time

Quoted message said:

gap dt' is calculated from the actual time gap dt, as follows:

exp[2 dt/t0] - 1
dt' = -------------------- t0
exp[2 dt/t0] + 1

with t0 = 2.5 minutes, for example.

This would yield the following conversion:

dt dt'
(s) (s)
0 0
1 1
5 5
10 10
20 20
30 30
60 57
120 100
180 125
240 138
300 145
600 150

Too complicated? Hardly, compared to the existing rules. One step.

Go

Quoted message said:

faster, score better.

Quoted message said:

That's not so complicated.

Dan

"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Here's the rules on CN:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=stages/stage4

The official page lists the rules here:
http://www.letour.com/2004/us/index.html

A r t i c l e 2 4 - Team time trials
Teams start their team time trial at 5 minute intervals in the reverse

order of the team ranking established following the 3rd stage. [...]

Quoted message said:

The stage ranking is established for each of the teams based on the

finishing time of the 5th rider in each team (to the nearest hundredth of a
second). An identical time is given to all teammates who arrive within this
same time, even if they actually finish

Quoted message said:

quicker.
The procedure for establishing the general individual time ranking is as

follows: Times for all riders are calculated according to the gap between
them and the 5th man of the winning team (scratch time).

Quoted message said:

If this gap is less than that given in the table below, then the actual

time recorded by the timekeepers will be taken.

Quoted message said:

If the gap is more than that given in the table below, then the rider will

receive the time of the winning team plus the additional number of seconds
indicated in the table below according to the place of their team.[...]

Quoted message said:

Riders who arrive on their own after the 5th rider in their team will be

credited for the general ranking with the actual time they took to complete
the stage.

Quoted message said:

However, riders finishing outside of the permitted finishing times

(coefficient 6) will be disqualified.

Quoted message said:

As far as the general team ranking is concerned, the actual time of the

5th man in each team will be the time recorded for this ranking. [...]

Quoted message said:

The cited table is missing. However, CN claims it is 10 seconds per place

to 15th, 5 seconds per place after that.

Quoted message said:

This needs serious work. Consider the following:

Team A: 70:00 (all riders A0-A8)
Team B: 75:00 (riders B0-7)
Team B: 75:01 (rider B8)
Team C: 80 minutes (all riders C0-C8)

Individual GC from this stage:
A0-A8: 70:00
B0-B7: @ :10
C0-C8: @ :20
B8 : @ 5:01

Huh? The guy finishes 1 second back from his team, and loses 5 minutes
as a result? Mind the gaps, guys.

This is an extreme example. However, it could easily occur that a 1

second

Quoted message said:

gap results in losses of more than a minute.

For 2005 an additional rule is needed -- no rider can lose more time

relative to

Quoted message said:

his team time than the actual difference in time between the rider and the

team.

Quoted message said:

But this is really too complicated. If they want to cap the time gaps, do
a numerical transform on the times. Calculate times the old fashion way.
The winning team gets its time. For the remaining teams, a transformed

time

Quoted message said:

gap dt' is calculated from the actual time gap dt, as follows:

exp[2 dt/t0] - 1
dt' = -------------------- t0
exp[2 dt/t0] + 1

with t0 = 2.5 minutes, for example.

This would yield the following conversion:

dt dt'
(s) (s)
0 0
1 1
5 5
10 10
20 20
30 30
60 57
120 100
180 125
240 138
300 145
600 150

Too complicated? Hardly, compared to the existing rules. One step. Go

faster, score better.

Quoted message said:

That's not so complicated.

Dan

Hard to digest, but a good breakdown of the TTT.
-tom

vernon said:

Im sorry, I owe a correction. Its that the Team can't lose more than
3:00min. Lagging riders can lose as much as much time as they fall behind.
Hang onto that wheel ahead of you right?

Right. But silly. It's common for riders to take suicide pulls in the final
few km. Should the result be a 5 minute GC penalty? Silly.

Postal can blow away Telekom by several minutes, but Landis punctures in the final
km and rides it home coming in 10 seconds after his teammates, only to finish minutes behind
the Telekom riders in GC.

Geesh -- didn't they think this through?

Dan

and Simoni went down with 2 turns to go, and they didnt wait.

These rules certainly don't help USP, but I sort of like them in a way. USP
is too tough and they needed to do something to level the playing field.
This gives Jan and others a chance to stay in the race to make it close, so
the fans can enjoy the race more.

Respectfully,
Curt

"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Here's the rules on CN:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=stages/stage4

The official page lists the rules here:
http://www.letour.com/2004/us/index.html

A r t i c l e 2 4 - Team time trials
Teams start their team time trial at 5 minute intervals in the reverse

order of the team ranking established following the 3rd stage. [...]

Quoted message said:

The stage ranking is established for each of the teams based on the

finishing time of the 5th rider in each team (to the nearest hundredth of a
second). An identical time is given to all teammates who arrive within this
same time, even if they actually finish

Quoted message said:

quicker.
The procedure for establishing the general individual time ranking is as

follows: Times for all riders are calculated according to the gap between
them and the 5th man of the winning team (scratch time).

Quoted message said:

If this gap is less than that given in the table below, then the actual

time recorded by the timekeepers will be taken.

Quoted message said:

If the gap is more than that given in the table below, then the rider will

receive the time of the winning team plus the additional number of seconds
indicated in the table below according to the place of their team.[...]

Quoted message said:

Riders who arrive on their own after the 5th rider in their team will be

credited for the general ranking with the actual time they took to complete
the stage.

Quoted message said:

However, riders finishing outside of the permitted finishing times

(coefficient 6) will be disqualified.

Quoted message said:

As far as the general team ranking is concerned, the actual time of the

5th man in each team will be the time recorded for this ranking. [...]

Quoted message said:

The cited table is missing. However, CN claims it is 10 seconds per place

to 15th, 5 seconds per place after that.

Quoted message said:

This needs serious work. Consider the following:

Team A: 70:00 (all riders A0-A8)
Team B: 75:00 (riders B0-7)
Team B: 75:01 (rider B8)
Team C: 80 minutes (all riders C0-C8)

Individual GC from this stage:
A0-A8: 70:00
B0-B7: @ :10
C0-C8: @ :20
B8 : @ 5:01

Huh? The guy finishes 1 second back from his team, and loses 5 minutes
as a result? Mind the gaps, guys.

This is an extreme example. However, it could easily occur that a 1

second

Quoted message said:

gap results in losses of more than a minute.

For 2005 an additional rule is needed -- no rider can lose more time

relative to

Quoted message said:

his team time than the actual difference in time between the rider and the

team.

Quoted message said:

But this is really too complicated. If they want to cap the time gaps, do
a numerical transform on the times. Calculate times the old fashion way.
The winning team gets its time. For the remaining teams, a transformed

time

Quoted message said:

gap dt' is calculated from the actual time gap dt, as follows:

exp[2 dt/t0] - 1
dt' = -------------------- t0
exp[2 dt/t0] + 1

with t0 = 2.5 minutes, for example.

This would yield the following conversion:

dt dt'
(s) (s)
0 0
1 1
5 5
10 10
20 20
30 30
60 57
120 100
180 125
240 138
300 145
600 150

Too complicated? Hardly, compared to the existing rules. One step. Go

faster, score better.

Quoted message said:

That's not so complicated.

Dan

curt said:

These rules certainly don't help USP, but I sort of like them in a way. USP
is too tough and they needed to do something to level the playing field.
This gives Jan and others a chance to stay in the race to make it close, so
the fans can enjoy the race more.

Respectfully,
Curt

I agree with Curt the TTT needs some damping. But the current approach as
irrationalities. The simple fix I first suggested, that individual times
are relative to the team rather than absolute, would help a lot.

But even then there are irrationalities. An example:

Results from http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=results/stage4
1 US Postal 1.12.03
1 Phonak 1.07
2 Illes Balears 1.15
3 T-Mobile 1.19
4 CSC 1.45
5 Rabobank 1.53
6 Liberty Seguros 2.25
7 Euskaltel - Euskadi 2.35
8 Saeco
9 Alessio - Bianchi 2.57
10 Quickstep-Davitamon 3.29

T-Mobile riders lost 20 seconds on Phonak riders because Postal was
first. If Postal had been slower (no more than 10 seconds up on Phonak),
T-Mobile'd have lost only 12 seconds on Phonak riders. Is there a rational basis for
this? Hardly. It's just sort of random.

So a more analytic damping makes more sense to me.

Dan

curt said:

These rules certainly don't help USP, but I sort of like them in a way.
USP
is too tough and they needed to do something to level the playing field.
This gives Jan and others a chance to stay in the race to make it close,
so
the fans can enjoy the race more.

Respectfully,
Curt

Personally, I think they should just ditch the TTT. It just means that
teams with a large amount of money get the best people. It's interesting
to watch, but doesn't add anything (to me) to the race.

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

"curt" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

These rules certainly don't help USP, but I sort of like them in a way.

USP

Quoted message said:

is too tough and they needed to do something to level the playing field.
This gives Jan and others a chance to stay in the race to make it close,

so

Quoted message said:

the fans can enjoy the race more.

Respectfully,
Curt

And another thing, they should go up mountains that aren't so steep. This
gives Jan and others a chance to stay in the race to make it close, so the
fans can enjoy the race more.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

Personally, I think they should just ditch the TTT. It just means that
teams with a large amount of money get the best people. It's interesting
to watch, but doesn't add anything (to me) to the race.

They already tried that a few years back.
-------------
Alex

Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Huh? The guy finishes 1 second back from his team, and loses 5 minutes

Great nerds think alike.

-ilan

"Bob in CT" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

curt said:

These rules certainly don't help USP, but I sort of like them in a way.
USP
is too tough and they needed to do something to level the playing field.
This gives Jan and others a chance to stay in the race to make it close,
so
the fans can enjoy the race more.

Respectfully,
Curt

Personally, I think they should just ditch the TTT. It just means that
teams with a large amount of money get the best people. It's interesting
to watch, but doesn't add anything (to me) to the race.

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

I think the TTT is a good thing for the race. It help make people realize
how important a good team is. There is no way any rider can win the TdF by
himself these days. It takes a team to work together for one captain. It
isn't an individual sport really and the TTT helps people realize that fact.
I enjoy them, but can also see your point.

Curt

curt said:

"Bob in CT" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

curt said:

These rules certainly don't help USP, but I sort of like them in a

way.

Quoted message said:

USP
is too tough and they needed to do something to level the playing

field.

Quoted message said:

This gives Jan and others a chance to stay in the race to make it

close,

Quoted message said:

so
the fans can enjoy the race more.

Respectfully,
Curt

Personally, I think they should just ditch the TTT. It just means that
teams with a large amount of money get the best people. It's
interesting
to watch, but doesn't add anything (to me) to the race.

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

I think the TTT is a good thing for the race. It help make people
realize
how important a good team is. There is no way any rider can win the TdF
by
himself these days. It takes a team to work together for one captain.
It
isn't an individual sport really and the TTT helps people realize that
fact.
I enjoy them, but can also see your point.

Curt

It's definitely a team sport. Look at yesterday, when US Postal just
cranked through the cobblestone sections and Mayo's team couldn't catch up
(though I'm not sure how many teams could, as fast as US Postal was going
-- they even split the main field).

--
Bob in CT
Remove ".x" to reply

On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 16:01:58 GMT, Bob in CT <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Personally, I think they should just ditch the TTT. It just means that
teams with a large amount of money get the best people. It's interesting
to watch, but doesn't add anything (to me) to the race.

The TTT is a race.

JT

Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

This needs serious work. Consider the following:

Team A: 70:00 (all riders A0-A8)
Team B: 75:00 (riders B0-7)
Team B: 75:01 (rider B8)
Team C: 80 minutes (all riders C0-C8)

Individual GC from this stage:
A0-A8: 70:00
B0-B7: @ :10
C0-C8: @ :20
B8 : @ 5:01

Huh? The guy finishes 1 second back from his team, and loses 5 minutes
as a result? Mind the gaps, guys.

Real world example:
Gilberto Simoni crashes on the final corner and finishes 7 seconds
behinds his Saeco teammates.
GC result:
Saeco riders @1:30
Simoni @ 2:42

DR