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TTT rules silliness

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Road Cycling
Published
7 July 2004
Last activity
7 July 2004
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Dan Connelly
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  1. Here's the rules on CN:
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=stages/stage4

    The official page lists the rules here:
    http://www.letour.com/2004/us/index.html

    A r t i c l e 2 4 - Team time trials
    Teams start their team time trial at 5 minute intervals in the reverse order of the team ranking established following the 3rd stage. [...]
    The stage ranking is established for each of the teams based on the finishing time of the 5th rider in each team (to the nearest hundredth of a second). An identical time is given to all teammates who arrive within this same time, even if they actually finish
    quicker.
    The procedure for establishing the general individual time ranking is as follows: Times for all riders are calculated according to the gap between them and the 5th man of the winning team (scratch time).
    If this gap is less than that given in the table below, then the actual time recorded by the timekeepers will be taken.
    If the gap is more than that given in the table below, then the rider will receive the time of the winning team plus the additional number of seconds indicated in the table below according to the place of their team.[...]
    Riders who arrive on their own after the 5th rider in their team will be credited for the general ranking with the actual time they took to complete the stage.
    However, riders finishing outside of the permitted finishing times (coefficient 6) will be disqualified.
    As far as the general team ranking is concerned, the actual time of the 5th man in each team will be the time recorded for this ranking. [...]

    The cited table is missing. However, CN claims it is 10 seconds per place to 15th, 5 seconds per place after that.

    This needs serious work. Consider the following:

    Team A: 70:00 (all riders A0-A8)
    Team B: 75:00 (riders B0-7)
    Team B: 75:01 (rider B8)
    Team C: 80 minutes (all riders C0-C8)

    Individual GC from this stage:
    A0-A8: 70:00
    B0-B7: @ :10
    C0-C8: @ :20
    B8 : @ 5:01

    Huh? The guy finishes 1 second back from his team, and loses 5 minutes
    as a result? Mind the gaps, guys.

    This is an extreme example. However, it could easily occur that a 1 second
    gap results in losses of more than a minute.

    For 2005 an additional rule is needed -- no rider can lose more time relative to
    his team time than the actual difference in time between the rider and the team.

    But this is really too complicated. If they want to cap the time gaps, do
    a numerical transform on the times. Calculate times the old fashion way.
    The winning team gets its time. For the remaining teams, a transformed time
    gap dt' is calculated from the actual time gap dt, as follows:

    exp[2 dt/t0] - 1
    dt' = -------------------- t0
    exp[2 dt/t0] + 1

    with t0 = 2.5 minutes, for example.

    This would yield the following conversion:

    dt dt'
    (s) (s)
    0 0
    1 1
    5 5
    10 10
    20 20
    30 30
    60 57
    120 100
    180 125
    240 138
    300 145
    600 150

    Too complicated? Hardly, compared to the existing rules. One step. Go faster, score better.
    That's not so complicated.

    Dan

  2. A rider can't lose 5 minutes, the max time loss is 2:30.... I know, still a
    bunch....

    "Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Here's the rules on CN:
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=stages/stage4

    The official page lists the rules here:
    http://www.letour.com/2004/us/index.html

    A r t i c l e 2 4 - Team time trials
    Teams start their team time trial at 5 minute intervals in the reverse


    order of the team ranking established following the 3rd stage. [...]

    Quoted message said:

    The stage ranking is established for each of the teams based on the


    finishing time of the 5th rider in each team (to the nearest hundredth of a
    second). An identical time is given to all teammates who arrive within this
    same time, even if they actually finish

    Quoted message said:

    quicker.
    The procedure for establishing the general individual time ranking is as


    follows: Times for all riders are calculated according to the gap between
    them and the 5th man of the winning team (scratch time).

    Quoted message said:

    If this gap is less than that given in the table below, then the actual


    time recorded by the timekeepers will be taken.

    Quoted message said:

    If the gap is more than that given in the table below, then the rider will


    receive the time of the winning team plus the additional number of seconds
    indicated in the table below according to the place of their team.[...]

    Quoted message said:

    Riders who arrive on their own after the 5th rider in their team will be


    credited for the general ranking with the actual time they took to complete
    the stage.

    Quoted message said:

    However, riders finishing outside of the permitted finishing times


    (coefficient 6) will be disqualified.

    Quoted message said:

    As far as the general team ranking is concerned, the actual time of the


    5th man in each team will be the time recorded for this ranking. [...]

    Quoted message said:


    The cited table is missing. However, CN claims it is 10 seconds per place


    to 15th, 5 seconds per place after that.

    Quoted message said:


    This needs serious work. Consider the following:

    Team A: 70:00 (all riders A0-A8)
    Team B: 75:00 (riders B0-7)
    Team B: 75:01 (rider B8)
    Team C: 80 minutes (all riders C0-C8)

    Individual GC from this stage:
    A0-A8: 70:00
    B0-B7: @ :10
    C0-C8: @ :20
    B8 : @ 5:01

    Huh? The guy finishes 1 second back from his team, and loses 5 minutes
    as a result? Mind the gaps, guys.

    This is an extreme example. However, it could easily occur that a 1


    second

    Quoted message said:

    gap results in losses of more than a minute.

    For 2005 an additional rule is needed -- no rider can lose more time


    relative to

    Quoted message said:

    his team time than the actual difference in time between the rider and the


    team.

    Quoted message said:


    But this is really too complicated. If they want to cap the time gaps, do
    a numerical transform on the times. Calculate times the old fashion way.
    The winning team gets its time. For the remaining teams, a transformed


    time

    Quoted message said:

    gap dt' is calculated from the actual time gap dt, as follows:

    exp[2 dt/t0] - 1
    dt' = -------------------- t0
    exp[2 dt/t0] + 1

    with t0 = 2.5 minutes, for example.

    This would yield the following conversion:

    dt dt'
    (s) (s)
    0 0
    1 1
    5 5
    10 10
    20 20
    30 30
    60 57
    120 100
    180 125
    240 138
    300 145
    600 150

    Too complicated? Hardly, compared to the existing rules. One step. Go


    faster, score better.

    Quoted message said:

    That's not so complicated.

    Dan

  3. Im sorry, I owe a correction. Its that the Team can't lose more than
    3:00min. Lagging riders can lose as much as much time as they fall behind.
    Hang onto that wheel ahead of you right?

    "vernon" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    A rider can't lose 5 minutes, the max time loss is 2:30.... I know, still


    a

    Quoted message said:

    bunch....

    "Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Here's the rules on CN:
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=stages/stage4

    The official page lists the rules here:
    http://www.letour.com/2004/us/index.html

    A r t i c l e 2 4 - Team time trials
    Teams start their team time trial at 5 minute intervals in the reverse


    order of the team ranking established following the 3rd stage. [...]

    Quoted message said:

    The stage ranking is established for each of the teams based on the


    finishing time of the 5th rider in each team (to the nearest hundredth of


    a

    Quoted message said:

    second). An identical time is given to all teammates who arrive within


    this

    Quoted message said:

    same time, even if they actually finish

    Quoted message said:

    quicker.
    The procedure for establishing the general individual time ranking is as


    follows: Times for all riders are calculated according to the gap between
    them and the 5th man of the winning team (scratch time).

    Quoted message said:

    If this gap is less than that given in the table below, then the actual


    time recorded by the timekeepers will be taken.

    Quoted message said:

    If the gap is more than that given in the table below, then the rider


    will

    Quoted message said:

    receive the time of the winning team plus the additional number of seconds
    indicated in the table below according to the place of their team.[...]

    Quoted message said:

    Riders who arrive on their own after the 5th rider in their team will be


    credited for the general ranking with the actual time they took to


    complete

    Quoted message said:

    the stage.

    Quoted message said:

    However, riders finishing outside of the permitted finishing times


    (coefficient 6) will be disqualified.

    Quoted message said:

    As far as the general team ranking is concerned, the actual time of the


    5th man in each team will be the time recorded for this ranking. [...]

    Quoted message said:


    The cited table is missing. However, CN claims it is 10 seconds per


    place

    Quoted message said:

    to 15th, 5 seconds per place after that.

    Quoted message said:


    This needs serious work. Consider the following:

    Team A: 70:00 (all riders A0-A8)
    Team B: 75:00 (riders B0-7)
    Team B: 75:01 (rider B8)
    Team C: 80 minutes (all riders C0-C8)

    Individual GC from this stage:
    A0-A8: 70:00
    B0-B7: @ :10
    C0-C8: @ :20
    B8 : @ 5:01

    Huh? The guy finishes 1 second back from his team, and loses 5 minutes
    as a result? Mind the gaps, guys.

    This is an extreme example. However, it could easily occur that a 1


    second

    Quoted message said:

    gap results in losses of more than a minute.

    For 2005 an additional rule is needed -- no rider can lose more time


    relative to

    Quoted message said:

    his team time than the actual difference in time between the rider and


    the

    Quoted message said:

    team.

    Quoted message said:


    But this is really too complicated. If they want to cap the time gaps,


    do

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    a numerical transform on the times. Calculate times the old fashion


    way.

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    The winning team gets its time. For the remaining teams, a transformed


    time

    Quoted message said:

    gap dt' is calculated from the actual time gap dt, as follows:

    exp[2 dt/t0] - 1
    dt' = -------------------- t0
    exp[2 dt/t0] + 1

    with t0 = 2.5 minutes, for example.

    This would yield the following conversion:

    dt dt'
    (s) (s)
    0 0
    1 1
    5 5
    10 10
    20 20
    30 30
    60 57
    120 100
    180 125
    240 138
    300 145
    600 150

    Too complicated? Hardly, compared to the existing rules. One step.


    Go

    Quoted message said:

    faster, score better.

    Quoted message said:

    That's not so complicated.

    Dan

  4. "Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Here's the rules on CN:
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=stages/stage4

    The official page lists the rules here:
    http://www.letour.com/2004/us/index.html

    A r t i c l e 2 4 - Team time trials
    Teams start their team time trial at 5 minute intervals in the reverse


    order of the team ranking established following the 3rd stage. [...]

    Quoted message said:

    The stage ranking is established for each of the teams based on the


    finishing time of the 5th rider in each team (to the nearest hundredth of a
    second). An identical time is given to all teammates who arrive within this
    same time, even if they actually finish

    Quoted message said:

    quicker.
    The procedure for establishing the general individual time ranking is as


    follows: Times for all riders are calculated according to the gap between
    them and the 5th man of the winning team (scratch time).

    Quoted message said:

    If this gap is less than that given in the table below, then the actual


    time recorded by the timekeepers will be taken.

    Quoted message said:

    If the gap is more than that given in the table below, then the rider will


    receive the time of the winning team plus the additional number of seconds
    indicated in the table below according to the place of their team.[...]

    Quoted message said:

    Riders who arrive on their own after the 5th rider in their team will be


    credited for the general ranking with the actual time they took to complete
    the stage.

    Quoted message said:

    However, riders finishing outside of the permitted finishing times


    (coefficient 6) will be disqualified.

    Quoted message said:

    As far as the general team ranking is concerned, the actual time of the


    5th man in each team will be the time recorded for this ranking. [...]

    Quoted message said:


    The cited table is missing. However, CN claims it is 10 seconds per place


    to 15th, 5 seconds per place after that.

    Quoted message said:


    This needs serious work. Consider the following:

    Team A: 70:00 (all riders A0-A8)
    Team B: 75:00 (riders B0-7)
    Team B: 75:01 (rider B8)
    Team C: 80 minutes (all riders C0-C8)

    Individual GC from this stage:
    A0-A8: 70:00
    B0-B7: @ :10
    C0-C8: @ :20
    B8 : @ 5:01

    Huh? The guy finishes 1 second back from his team, and loses 5 minutes
    as a result? Mind the gaps, guys.

    This is an extreme example. However, it could easily occur that a 1


    second

    Quoted message said:

    gap results in losses of more than a minute.

    For 2005 an additional rule is needed -- no rider can lose more time


    relative to

    Quoted message said:

    his team time than the actual difference in time between the rider and the


    team.

    Quoted message said:


    But this is really too complicated. If they want to cap the time gaps, do
    a numerical transform on the times. Calculate times the old fashion way.
    The winning team gets its time. For the remaining teams, a transformed


    time

    Quoted message said:

    gap dt' is calculated from the actual time gap dt, as follows:

    exp[2 dt/t0] - 1
    dt' = -------------------- t0
    exp[2 dt/t0] + 1

    with t0 = 2.5 minutes, for example.

    This would yield the following conversion:

    dt dt'
    (s) (s)
    0 0
    1 1
    5 5
    10 10
    20 20
    30 30
    60 57
    120 100
    180 125
    240 138
    300 145
    600 150

    Too complicated? Hardly, compared to the existing rules. One step. Go


    faster, score better.

    Quoted message said:

    That's not so complicated.

    Dan


    Hard to digest, but a good breakdown of the TTT.
    -tom

  5. vernon said:

    Im sorry, I owe a correction. Its that the Team can't lose more than
    3:00min. Lagging riders can lose as much as much time as they fall behind.
    Hang onto that wheel ahead of you right?

    Right. But silly. It's common for riders to take suicide pulls in the final
    few km. Should the result be a 5 minute GC penalty? Silly.

    Postal can blow away Telekom by several minutes, but Landis punctures in the final
    km and rides it home coming in 10 seconds after his teammates, only to finish minutes behind
    the Telekom riders in GC.

    Geesh -- didn't they think this through?

    Dan

  6. and Simoni went down with 2 turns to go, and they didnt wait.

  7. These rules certainly don't help USP, but I sort of like them in a way. USP
    is too tough and they needed to do something to level the playing field.
    This gives Jan and others a chance to stay in the race to make it close, so
    the fans can enjoy the race more.

    Respectfully,
    Curt

    "Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    Here's the rules on CN:
    http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=stages/stage4

    The official page lists the rules here:
    http://www.letour.com/2004/us/index.html

    A r t i c l e 2 4 - Team time trials
    Teams start their team time trial at 5 minute intervals in the reverse


    order of the team ranking established following the 3rd stage. [...]

    Quoted message said:

    The stage ranking is established for each of the teams based on the


    finishing time of the 5th rider in each team (to the nearest hundredth of a
    second). An identical time is given to all teammates who arrive within this
    same time, even if they actually finish

    Quoted message said:

    quicker.
    The procedure for establishing the general individual time ranking is as


    follows: Times for all riders are calculated according to the gap between
    them and the 5th man of the winning team (scratch time).

    Quoted message said:

    If this gap is less than that given in the table below, then the actual


    time recorded by the timekeepers will be taken.

    Quoted message said:

    If the gap is more than that given in the table below, then the rider will


    receive the time of the winning team plus the additional number of seconds
    indicated in the table below according to the place of their team.[...]

    Quoted message said:

    Riders who arrive on their own after the 5th rider in their team will be


    credited for the general ranking with the actual time they took to complete
    the stage.

    Quoted message said:

    However, riders finishing outside of the permitted finishing times


    (coefficient 6) will be disqualified.

    Quoted message said:

    As far as the general team ranking is concerned, the actual time of the


    5th man in each team will be the time recorded for this ranking. [...]

    Quoted message said:


    The cited table is missing. However, CN claims it is 10 seconds per place


    to 15th, 5 seconds per place after that.

    Quoted message said:


    This needs serious work. Consider the following:

    Team A: 70:00 (all riders A0-A8)
    Team B: 75:00 (riders B0-7)
    Team B: 75:01 (rider B8)
    Team C: 80 minutes (all riders C0-C8)

    Individual GC from this stage:
    A0-A8: 70:00
    B0-B7: @ :10
    C0-C8: @ :20
    B8 : @ 5:01

    Huh? The guy finishes 1 second back from his team, and loses 5 minutes
    as a result? Mind the gaps, guys.

    This is an extreme example. However, it could easily occur that a 1


    second

    Quoted message said:

    gap results in losses of more than a minute.

    For 2005 an additional rule is needed -- no rider can lose more time


    relative to

    Quoted message said:

    his team time than the actual difference in time between the rider and the


    team.

    Quoted message said:


    But this is really too complicated. If they want to cap the time gaps, do
    a numerical transform on the times. Calculate times the old fashion way.
    The winning team gets its time. For the remaining teams, a transformed


    time

    Quoted message said:

    gap dt' is calculated from the actual time gap dt, as follows:

    exp[2 dt/t0] - 1
    dt' = -------------------- t0
    exp[2 dt/t0] + 1

    with t0 = 2.5 minutes, for example.

    This would yield the following conversion:

    dt dt'
    (s) (s)
    0 0
    1 1
    5 5
    10 10
    20 20
    30 30
    60 57
    120 100
    180 125
    240 138
    300 145
    600 150

    Too complicated? Hardly, compared to the existing rules. One step. Go


    faster, score better.

    Quoted message said:

    That's not so complicated.

    Dan

  8. curt said:

    These rules certainly don't help USP, but I sort of like them in a way. USP
    is too tough and they needed to do something to level the playing field.
    This gives Jan and others a chance to stay in the race to make it close, so
    the fans can enjoy the race more.

    Respectfully,
    Curt

    I agree with Curt the TTT needs some damping. But the current approach as
    irrationalities. The simple fix I first suggested, that individual times
    are relative to the team rather than absolute, would help a lot.

    But even then there are irrationalities. An example:

    Results from http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/tour04/?id=results/stage4
    1 US Postal 1.12.03
    1 Phonak 1.07
    2 Illes Balears 1.15
    3 T-Mobile 1.19
    4 CSC 1.45
    5 Rabobank 1.53
    6 Liberty Seguros 2.25
    7 Euskaltel - Euskadi 2.35
    8 Saeco
    9 Alessio - Bianchi 2.57
    10 Quickstep-Davitamon 3.29

    T-Mobile riders lost 20 seconds on Phonak riders because Postal was
    first. If Postal had been slower (no more than 10 seconds up on Phonak),
    T-Mobile'd have lost only 12 seconds on Phonak riders. Is there a rational basis for
    this? Hardly. It's just sort of random.

    So a more analytic damping makes more sense to me.

    Dan

  9. curt said:

    These rules certainly don't help USP, but I sort of like them in a way.
    USP
    is too tough and they needed to do something to level the playing field.
    This gives Jan and others a chance to stay in the race to make it close,
    so
    the fans can enjoy the race more.

    Respectfully,
    Curt

    Personally, I think they should just ditch the TTT. It just means that
    teams with a large amount of money get the best people. It's interesting
    to watch, but doesn't add anything (to me) to the race.

    --
    Bob in CT
    Remove ".x" to reply

  10. "curt" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    These rules certainly don't help USP, but I sort of like them in a way.


    USP

    Quoted message said:

    is too tough and they needed to do something to level the playing field.
    This gives Jan and others a chance to stay in the race to make it close,


    so

    Quoted message said:

    the fans can enjoy the race more.

    Respectfully,
    Curt

    And another thing, they should go up mountains that aren't so steep. This
    gives Jan and others a chance to stay in the race to make it close, so the
    fans can enjoy the race more.

  11. In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
    says...

    Quoted message said:


    Personally, I think they should just ditch the TTT. It just means that
    teams with a large amount of money get the best people. It's interesting
    to watch, but doesn't add anything (to me) to the race.

    They already tried that a few years back.
    -------------
    Alex

  12. Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:


    Huh? The guy finishes 1 second back from his team, and loses 5 minutes

    Great nerds think alike.

    -ilan

  13. "Bob in CT" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    curt said:

    These rules certainly don't help USP, but I sort of like them in a way.
    USP
    is too tough and they needed to do something to level the playing field.
    This gives Jan and others a chance to stay in the race to make it close,
    so
    the fans can enjoy the race more.

    Respectfully,
    Curt

    Personally, I think they should just ditch the TTT. It just means that
    teams with a large amount of money get the best people. It's interesting
    to watch, but doesn't add anything (to me) to the race.

    --
    Bob in CT
    Remove ".x" to reply

    I think the TTT is a good thing for the race. It help make people realize
    how important a good team is. There is no way any rider can win the TdF by
    himself these days. It takes a team to work together for one captain. It
    isn't an individual sport really and the TTT helps people realize that fact.
    I enjoy them, but can also see your point.

    Curt

  14. curt said:


    "Bob in CT" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    curt said:

    These rules certainly don't help USP, but I sort of like them in a


    way.

    Quoted message said:

    USP
    is too tough and they needed to do something to level the playing


    field.

    Quoted message said:

    This gives Jan and others a chance to stay in the race to make it


    close,

    Quoted message said:

    so
    the fans can enjoy the race more.

    Respectfully,
    Curt

    Personally, I think they should just ditch the TTT. It just means that
    teams with a large amount of money get the best people. It's
    interesting
    to watch, but doesn't add anything (to me) to the race.

    --
    Bob in CT
    Remove ".x" to reply

    I think the TTT is a good thing for the race. It help make people
    realize
    how important a good team is. There is no way any rider can win the TdF
    by
    himself these days. It takes a team to work together for one captain.
    It
    isn't an individual sport really and the TTT helps people realize that
    fact.
    I enjoy them, but can also see your point.

    Curt

    It's definitely a team sport. Look at yesterday, when US Postal just
    cranked through the cobblestone sections and Mayo's team couldn't catch up
    (though I'm not sure how many teams could, as fast as US Postal was going
    -- they even split the main field).

    --
    Bob in CT
    Remove ".x" to reply

  15. On Wed, 07 Jul 2004 16:01:58 GMT, Bob in CT <[email hidden]>

    Quoted message said:

    Personally, I think they should just ditch the TTT. It just means that
    teams with a large amount of money get the best people. It's interesting
    to watch, but doesn't add anything (to me) to the race.

    The TTT is a race.

    JT

  16. Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@i_e_e_e.o_r_g> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

    Quoted message said:

    This needs serious work. Consider the following:

    Team A: 70:00 (all riders A0-A8)
    Team B: 75:00 (riders B0-7)
    Team B: 75:01 (rider B8)
    Team C: 80 minutes (all riders C0-C8)

    Individual GC from this stage:
    A0-A8: 70:00
    B0-B7: @ :10
    C0-C8: @ :20
    B8 : @ 5:01

    Huh? The guy finishes 1 second back from his team, and loses 5 minutes
    as a result? Mind the gaps, guys.

    Real world example:
    Gilberto Simoni crashes on the final corner and finishes 7 seconds
    behinds his Saeco teammates.
    GC result:
    Saeco riders @1:30
    Simoni @ 2:42

    DR

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