TSS or time in "Sweet Spot" which is more important?

[LT Intolerant]

good post. Personally I've found a large difference in sustainable load (CTL) at an avg. weekly IF of 0.75 vs. 0.85- even though that doesn't sound like a large change on the face of it. But ex. phys tells us the response isn't at all linear.

At 0.75, I could handle around 140 CTL, at 0.85 it seems 110 is much closer to my limit. If I were riding a lot of L2 down around 0.65 and had the time, I suspect I could get into the 170s or higher. Just idlely working that out, at an avg. IF of 0.65 that would take around 4hrs/d on average or 28hrs/wk. Not impossible if one was doing nothing else but probably a colossal waste of time for an amateur/master.

Thanks rmur. So true that the difference between .75 and .85 IF is significant, given how you arrive at that IF. For example when I do 2x20 I have to ride 9 miles o/b to my favorite climb (ravaged by the Tea Fire btw ), and by the time I build in the time it takes me to descend after the first 20 my IF is in the .7x range, not the .8x-.9x range unless I drill it out and back, unlikely because the road is v twisty.

In the end I do get 40' of L3/4, but I wrap some L1/2 around that lowering the IF dramatically. I do 2x20 or 1x40 3xs per week, but I do them w L2-7 wrapped around them, w my roll out/back as stated above, or before/after a group ride.

Right now I can get away with that in that at this stage of my life I have more time on my hands and flexibility in my schedule. If I were in the OPs shoes I'd be doing the HIT thing, namely 5' warmup, 2 x 20' w 5 rbi, and a 5' wd. In fact I wish I had a PM when I was younger and time-constrained as I would have a far more efficiently and better trained athlete following a HIT approach.

 

[rob of the og]

Ah, so now a 20.04 for 10 miles is weak? I guess you'll be pulling an Einstein on us and say that it's all "relative"...

That was a good day for sure! A very fast day on a very fast course, I was actually only equal 14th best senior male that day. Wendy Houvenhagel set a new women's competition record of 19.50 that afternoon as well. That 20.04 was set with only a 330w NP.

I think there's a big difference between time-trialling on specific courses compared to time trials as part of stage races. The physical demands of a rolling course, plus the higher standard of the competition makes it completely different. In the rolling prologue of our local 5-day race I gave up well over a minute in 5 miles, then another 2.30 in the 15mile TTT. Nearly 4 minutes shed in two stages and your race is over = needs more work on timetrialling!

 

[doctorSpoc]

I'd like to remind all of Dr. Coggan's pithy saying: "the more you train, the more you can train". IOW, I don't think you can truly maximize your FTP gains without having built a good CTL base. Ideally (IMO), you want to do both simulteneously, eg. build CTL while training FTP. Sweet Spot Training... tahdaaaaaah!!!

2 x 20 min @ 95% FTP - good
3 x 20 min @ 95% FTP - better
1 x 60 min @ 95% FTP - betterer
1 x 90+ min @ 90% FTP - betterest ?
??? - best


I guess that's my vote for time in SS, since it will take care of TSS. Let TSS be whatever it is. No need for filler miles just to meet your weekly quota.

i actually don't agree with your chart... i would agree that your order is the most efficient use of time but not necessarily the best workout for the ballpark of time. add another 15mins and you have a much better, easier to recover from that allows you to do more the next day workout.

i would actually put 3x20 @ 95% certainly above 1x60 @ 95% and probably above 1x90 @ 90... because of the recovery periods you are doing more -> similar TSS. i tend to do 10min recovery @ tempo which means at the end of the day i have an extra 30min of tempo when compared to doing a straight 1x60. also you are quite mashed up after doing a 1x60 or 1x90 (inside.. legs, shoulders, butt etc..) and it impacts what you can do the next day.. and on top of that there is the mental fatigue of doing such long uninterrupted session (too long to call an interval).

there is a reason people do interval training... because it allows you to do a higher quality workout and do it easier than continuos workouts... you give up a little bit in efficiency because of the recovery periods but at the end of the day your are much further ahead.

 

[swampy1970]

That was a good day for sure! A very fast day on a very fast course, I was actually only equal 14th best senior male that day. Wendy Houvenhagel set a new women's competition record of 19.50 that afternoon as well. That 20.04 was set with only a 330w NP.
QUOTE]

I don't feel too bad now. LOL

The best that I could 'officially' muster in a 10 was a rare trip over towards Hull on the V718 on a decidedly breezy day and came back with a short 21. The only time I dipped into 20 minute territory was on a local course on an evening 10 (the course is similar to the new uber fast course at Levens up in the Lake District - but with more mini roundabouts) with a 20.57

I used to do better in the hillier events bascially cause I weighed feck all and loved hills.

 

[Felt_Rider]

That's pretty much where I am, below 70 and I feel out of shape, 110 is my highpoint and I held 100+ for quite a while last spring. I feel best when I've been over 100 but have traded a bit of CTL for freshness. I did a lot of my racing in the last two seasons in th 80-100 range.

Right now I'm hovering near 50 after my downseason and a lot of life's interruptions. It's awful, even the few outdoor rides I've managed when the weather has been warmer have felt terrible and I can hardly make an hour indoors right now.

-Dave

I've been struggling with a sinus and resipitory issue, which may be due to working lots of overtime, increased work stress, reduced sleep and an office full of sick folk. I tried to train last night and just couldn't muster up enough to stay in the L3 zone for 40 minutes. I feel even worse today and will probably miss another long group ride this weekend, much less even getting on the trainer.

The cat-2 guy in my office is sick and the triathlete woman in my office is sick, some of my cycling club are sick so if anyone else wants to join in for a miserable way of detraining you are welcome to join us.

 

[Piotr]

i actually don't agree with your chart... i would agree that your order is the most efficient use of time but not necessarily the best workout for the ballpark of time. add another 15mins and you have a much better, easier to recover from that allows you to do more the next day workout.

i would actually put 3x20 @ 95% certainly above 1x60 @ 95% and probably above 1x90 @ 90... because of the recovery periods you are doing more -> similar TSS. i tend to do 10min recovery @ tempo which means at the end of the day i have an extra 30min of tempo when compared to doing a straight 1x60. also you are quite mashed up after doing a 1x60 or 1x90 (inside.. legs, shoulders, butt etc..) and it impacts what you can do the next day.. and on top of that there is the mental fatigue of doing such long uninterrupted session (too long to call an interval).

there is a reason people do interval training... because it allows you to do a higher quality workout and do it easier than continuos workouts... you give up a little bit in efficiency because of the recovery periods but at the end of the day your are much further ahead.

I'm not sure how you can do 3 x 20 and put in an extra 30 min of Tempo (in between) and claim to be fresher the next day than doing straight 1hr. TSS is TSS. If your TSS is higher then you're not fresher. But I think those may just be personal training preferences. Also, 95% of FTP is precisely that, so I don't know what "higher quality workout" you're talking about. I would argue that 95% FTP at the end of 1 hr is "better" than 95% FTP at the beginning. Much like the last minute of a VO2max interval is more beneficial than the first. In fact, I always increase power towards the end, whether 20 min or 1 hr block.

IOW, the first 20 min is not equal in benefits to the last 20 min of a 60 min effort... unless you start over every 20 min . I'll go as far as to say that the only reason you want to ride continuously is so you can reap the benefits of that last 20 min. I don't think you necessarily should break threshold training into intervals. As those more qualified than I will attest those breaks are more mental than anything else. IOW, if you can mentally handle continuous riding then do it and I take pride in it.

 

[doctorSpoc]

I'm not sure how you can do 3 x 20 and put in an extra 30 min of Tempo (in between) and claim to be fresher the next day than doing straight 1hr. TSS is TSS. If your TSS is higher then you're not fresher. But I think those may just be personal training preferences. Also, 95% of FTP is precisely that, so I don't know what "higher quality workout" you're talking about. I would argue that 95% FTP at the end of 1 hr is "better" than 95% FTP at the beginning. Much like the last minute of a VO2max interval is more beneficial than the first. In fact, I always increase power towards the end, whether 20 min or 1 hr block.

IOW, the first 20 min is not equal in benefits to the last 20 min of a 60 min effort... unless you start over every 20 min . I'll go as far as to say that the only reason you want to ride continuously is so you can reap the benefits of that last 20 min. I don't think you necessarily should break threshold training into intervals. As those more qualified than I will attest those breaks are more mental than anything else. IOW, if you can mentally handle continuous riding then do it and I take pride in it.

doing the 30mins of tempo... that's the beauty of interval training.. try it!

TSS is not TSS... do low TSS 1-2hr with lots of L5 work and see what your capacity to do L5 or L4 the next day is... do a high TSS 3-4hr workout at L2-3 and see what your capacity to train the next day is... TSS is not TSS in the short term... in the long term yes.

higher quality means you can typically do the business end of your workout at higher intensity and with better form and as a bonus more easily and recover from it better.

VO2max is a special case... you are trying to maximize oxygen dept and that only occurs after a certain time and intensity... some would argue that the real business end of a VO2max interval is actually the recovery period not even the active part of the interval itself... a threshold interval is different... people buy into the myth that if it hurts more then it must be more beneficial.. this is not true... interval training lets you do the same more easily or do more for the same hurt.

 

[sgrundy]

IOW, the first 20 min is not equal in benefits to the last 20 min of a 60 min effort... unless you start over every 20 min . I'll go as far as to say that the only reason you want to ride continuously is so you can reap the benefits of that last 20 min. I don't think you necessarily should break threshold training into intervals. As those more qualified than I will attest those breaks are more mental than anything else. IOW, if you can mentally handle continuous riding then do it and I take pride in it.

I have to agree with that. I find that breaking a threshold ride into 20 min intervals is actually more difficult than just riding continuously for an hour. The first 20 min of an L4 ride are complete hell, but once you get through them you get into a zone and the effort feels much easier. A 60 minute effort also forces you to pace appropriately, whereas 20 min intervals take a lot of discipline not to go too hard. I'm much more likely to finish a sixty minute block of L4 training than 3 x 20s.

 

[doctorSpoc]

I have to agree with that. I find that breaking a threshold ride into 20 min intervals is actually more difficult than just riding continuously for an hour. The first 20 min of an L4 ride are complete hell, but once you get through them you get into a zone and the effort feels much easier. A 60 minute effort also forces you to pace appropriately, whereas 20 min intervals take a lot of discipline not to go too hard. I'm much more likely to finish a sixty minute block of L4 training than 3 x 20s.

i don't get this... you know how hard you have to ride (assuming you have a power meter that is) you just ride that hard... end of story. the thing about riding in 3 20 min blocks is that at the end of the day the business end of your workout is more likely to be at a higher intensity i.e. a better quality workout than the 60 min solid block or if you keep the same intensity it's easier.

 

[Piotr]

doing the 30mins of tempo... that's the beauty of interval training.. try it!

TSS is not TSS... do low TSS 1-2hr with lots of L5 work and see what your capacity to do L5 or L4 the next day is... do a high TSS 3-4hr workout at L2-3 and see what your capacity to train the next day is... TSS is not TSS in the short term... in the long term yes.

higher quality means you can typically do the business end of your workout at higher intensity and with better form and as a bonus more easily and recover from it better.

VO2max is a special case... you are trying to maximize oxygen dept and that only occurs after a certain time and intensity... some would argue that the real business end of a VO2max interval is actually the recovery period not even the active part of the interval itself... a threshold interval is different... people buy into the myth that if it hurts more then it must be more beneficial.. this is not true... interval training lets you do the same more easily or do more for the same hurt.

Regarding TSS, perhaps I spoke too casually, I'll admit that how TSS feels is dependent on IF. But otherwise I believe that forgoing the rest periods in threshold training is the better way to go.

 

[sgrundy]

i don't get this... you know how hard you have to ride (assuming you have a power meter that is) you just ride that hard... end of story. the thing about riding in 3 20 min blocks is that at the end of the day the business end of your workout is more likely to be at a higher intensity i.e. a better quality workout than the 60 min solid block or if you keep the same intensity it's easier.

Maybe that's the case if you're on a trainer, but I do all my riding outdoors. The rolling terrain plus the powertap's fixed sampling rate (I like to spin) mean that the power on my head unit display fluctuates way too wildly to set a precise wattage target. I mainly rely on RPE during a ride, using the power data to assess the workout afterwards. I'll check my average power once in a while to confirm that I'm in the area I'm targeting, but this obviously doesn't give you a real time measurement of intensity. Like I said, it's a discipline issue. I always want to push myself harder, and when you don't have a clear number in front of you it's easy to lose focus and go out way too hard. For me six or seven watts above my optimal effort in the first interval is enough to ruin the workout, and when your power flucuates from 220 to 300 during a 260w effort the difference is hard to discern. Even if I do pace correctly and finish the workout, it feels a lot harder than 1x60. My legs always feel awful during the beginning of the second and third intervals, to the point where I'm struggling to stay in L4. For me, 1x60 at 95+% is a fairly easy ride that I can do on several consecutive days, but 3x20's at 99% is an epic workout.

So while I can average a higher wattage over 3x20's than 1x60, when you consider the additional motivational stress and the higher probability that I won't finish the entire workout, much less do it again the next day, then those few additional watts aren't worth it. That's why long interrupted blocks of L4 at a slightly lower wattage work better for me.

 

[swampy1970]

because of the recovery periods you are doing more -> similar TSS. i tend to do 10min recovery @ tempo which means at the end of the day i have an extra 30min of tempo when compared to doing a straight 1x60.

It must be nice to be able to do tempo between intervals... I ride like a man that's f#cked outa his head and needs air...

 

[simplyred]

OP,

If anything - I hope this discussion has brought to light that TSS or SST(t) is still not a effective way of single-handedly describing/evaluating the effectiveness of your training. I think we all wish there was a variable that told us everything - but there isn't.

I suppose having [1] on the back of your jersey is a good start

 

[frost]

How do you define Sweet Spot? Exact percentages of FTP (exceeding the accuracy of any powermeter in some discussions) or like the article first promoting the term defined it as "anything that gives you a lot of TSS". By that definition the question becomes a bit... well selfexplaining.

http://www.fascatcoaching.com/sweetspottraining.html

 

[rob of the og]

2 x 20 min @ 95% FTP - good
3 x 20 min @ 95% FTP - better
1 x 60 min @ 95% FTP - betterer
1 x 90+ min @ 90% FTP - betterest ?
??? - best

Just an aside, but as one of the definitions of FTP is the power that you can routinely maintain for long intervals, why would you do 20min intervals at only 95%? Or did you mean that as short-hand for 95-105%?

 

[Piotr]

Just an aside, but as one of the definitions of FTP is the power that you can routinely maintain for long intervals, why would you do 20min intervals at only 95%? Or did you mean that as short-hand for 95-105%?

I wouldn't, but I know there are those who do 2 x 20 min at that intensity. I think they're a good place to start with a low CTL, so I'll withhold judgement. Those were not training prescriptions, but examples for comparison to make a point about how I would expect to progress during my winter SST. In fact, I just did 2 x 45 min @ 95% FTP. Ultimately, you do what you know you can do and what you know you're able to recover from.

 

[bubsy]

Ultimately, you do what you know you can do and what you know you're able to recover from.[/QUOTE].
Very wise words indeed.