TSB seems wrong

marmatt said:

...Any other ideas?

What does your CTL and ATL look like between those times when your TSB peaks for races? IOW are you in constant taper mode with a lot of races? What sort of work are you doing in the weeks between the races? Are you resting two days before the weekend and doing a wake up/openers ride the day before or resting Friday for a Saturday race? Are you increasing mileage and doing longer slower rides to build CTL or are you emphasizing intensity? Have you lost weight or are you staying steady? How about life in general, any extra job or life stress, late nights, etc?

Lots of things can lead to mid season burnout and it can just as easily be too little as well as too much training. How about posting a screen shot of your Performance Manager with some background on your recent training?

-Dave

pMC
Date TSB ATL CTL
12/2/2006 0 14.2857142857143 2.38095238095238
12/3/2006 -11.9047619047619 13.030612244898 2.45521541950113
12/4/2006 -10.5753968253968 26.497667638484 4.95151981427492
12/5/2006 -21.5461478242091 37.7551436901291 7.34076934250647
12/6/2006 -30.4143743476227 45.5186945915392 9.35884626292298
12/7/2006 -36.1598483286163 51.1017382213194 11.150302304282
12/8/2006 -39.9514359170374 43.801489903988 10.8848189160848
12/9/2006 -32.9166709879032 37.5441342034183 10.6256565609399
12/10/2006 -26.9184776424784 52.2092578886443 13.7107599761556
12/11/2006 -38.4984979124886 44.7507924759808 13.3843133100567
12/12/2006 -31.3664791659241 55.7292506936978 15.9608772788648
12/13/2006 -39.768373414833 57.4679291660267 17.1975230579395
12/14/2006 -40.2704061080872 59.3867964280229 18.4761534613219
12/15/2006 -40.910642966701 66.088682652591 20.5671974265285
12/16/2006 -45.5214852260625 56.6474422736495 20.0775022497064
12/17/2006 -36.5699400239431 48.554950520271 19.5994664818562
12/18/2006 -28.9554840384147 41.6185290173751 19.1328125180025
12/19/2006 -22.4857164993726 52.7301677291787 21.5201265056691
12/20/2006 -31.2100412235095 51.9687151964389 22.1363139698199
12/21/2006 -29.832401226619 44.544613025519 21.6092588753003
12/22/2006 -22.9353541502187 38.1810968790163 21.0947527116027
12/23/2006 -17.0863441674136 32.7266544677283 20.5924966946598
12/24/2006 -12.1341577730685 56.1514181151957 24.7855324876441
12/25/2006 -31.3658856275516 60.9012155273106 26.3239721903192
12/26/2006 -34.5772433369913 52.2010418805519 25.6972109476926
12/27/2006 -26.5038309328593 44.7437501833302 25.0853725917951
12/28/2006 -19.6583775915351 38.3517858714259 24.4881018158
12/29/2006 -13.8636840556259 65.1158164612222 29.2788612963762
12/30/2006 -35.836955164846 55.8135569667619 28.5817455512244
12/31/2006 -27.2318114155375 67.0544774000816 31.1036087523857
1/1/2007 -35.9508686476959 61.0466949143557 30.9582847344718
1/2/2007 -30.0884101798839 52.3257384980191 30.2211827169843
1/3/2007 -22.1045557810348 45.507775855445 29.6111545570561
1/4/2007 -15.8966212983888 39.7780935903814 29.0346984961739
1/5/2007 -10.7433950942076 34.0955087917555 28.3433961510269
1/6/2007 -5.75211264072864 45.4675789643619 30.3756962426691
1/7/2007 -15.0918827216928 38.9722105408816 29.6524653797484
1/8/2007 -9.31974516113321 48.3476090350414 31.4369304897544
1/9/2007 -16.910678545287 41.4408077443212 30.6884321447602
1/10/2007 -10.7523755995609 47.4064066379896 31.938707569885
1/11/2007 -15.4676990681046 56.3483485468482 33.797309770602
1/12/2007 -22.5510387762462 49.1128701830128 33.1283262046353
1/13/2007 -15.9845439783775 56.2110315854395 34.6919374854773
1/14/2007 -21.5190940999622 53.2380270732339 34.7087961167755
1/15/2007 -18.5292309564584 56.3325946342005 35.6657295425665
1/16/2007 -20.6668650916339 58.3993668293147 36.502259791553
1/17/2007 -21.8971070377616 50.0566001394126 35.6331583679446
1/18/2007 -14.4234417714679 56.9628001194965 37.1276069782317
1/19/2007 -19.8351931412648 72.2538286738541 40.1483782406547
1/20/2007 -32.1054504331994 72.8318531490178 41.0091311396867
1/21/2007 -31.8227220093311 71.4701598420153 41.5398661125513
1/22/2007 -29.9302937294639 61.2601370074417 40.5508216813001
1/23/2007 -20.7093153261415 63.3944031492357 41.3996116412692
1/24/2007 -21.9947915079666 54.3380598422021 40.4139066021913
1/25/2007 -13.9241532400107 55.5326227218875 40.9445278735677
1/26/2007 -14.5880948483197 51.1708194759035 40.5648962575304
1/27/2007 -10.6059232183732 43.8607024079173 39.5990653942559
1/28/2007 -4.26163701366146 37.5948877782149 38.6562305039164
1/29/2007 1.06134272570159 37.7241895241842 38.6525107300137
1/30/2007 0.928321205829505 42.877876735015 39.4893557126324
1/31/2007 -3.38852102238261 36.75246577287 38.5491329575697
2/1/2007 1.79666718469971 31.5021135196029 37.63129645858
2/2/2007 6.1291829389771 27.001811588231 36.7353132095661
2/3/2007 9.73350162133513 67.815838504198 43.3059009902908
2/4/2007 -24.5099375139073 81.6421472893126 46.1938557286172
2/5/2007 -35.4482915606954 69.9789833908394 45.094002020793
2/6/2007 -24.8849813700464 75.0962714778623 46.5393829250598
2/7/2007 -28.5568885528025 84.4110898381677 48.7717785697012
2/8/2007 -35.6393112684665 81.4809341470009 49.1319743180417
2/9/2007 -32.3489598289592 69.8408006974293 47.9621654057073
2/10/2007 -21.878635291722 85.2635434549394 51.0535424198572
2/11/2007 -34.2100010350823 81.2973229613767 51.2070295050987
2/12/2007 -30.090293456278 87.6119911097514 52.9759097549773
2/13/2007 -34.6360813547741 75.0959923797869 51.714578570335
2/14/2007 -23.381413809452 79.0394220398174 52.9285171758032
2/15/2007 -26.1109048640142 67.7480760341292 51.6683143859031
2/16/2007 -16.0797616482261 75.3126366006821 53.3119259481435
2/17/2007 -22.0007106525386 64.5536885148704 52.0425943779496
2/18/2007 -12.5110941369208 58.0174472984603 51.2511040356175
2/19/2007 -6.76634326284287 49.7292405415374 50.0308396538171
2/20/2007 0.301599112279611 42.6250633213178 48.839629185869
2/21/2007 6.21456586455122 45.1071971325581 49.1053523004912
2/22/2007 3.99815516793308 38.663311827907 47.9361772457176
2/23/2007 9.27286541781064 33.1399815667774 46.7948396922481
2/24/2007 13.6548581254707 48.9771270572378 49.1092482710041
2/25/2007 0.132121213766361 62.3803946204895 51.3399804550278
2/26/2007 -11.0404141654617 71.3260525318481 53.0937904441938
2/27/2007 -18.2322620876543 61.1366164558698 51.8296525764749
2/28/2007 -9.30696387939491 64.1885283907456 52.5598989437017
3/1/2007 -11.6286294470438 58.5901671920676 51.9037108736136
3/2/2007 -6.68645631845405 65.048714736058 53.1393368051942
3/3/2007 -11.9093779308638 68.8988983451925 54.0645906907848
3/4/2007 -14.8343076544077 75.884770010165 55.5821004362423
3/5/2007 -20.3026695739227 65.0440885801415 54.2587170925223
3/6/2007 -10.7853714876192 70.0235044972641 55.3454143046051
3/7/2007 -14.678090192659 81.4487181405121 57.5990949164002
3/8/2007 -23.8496232241119 69.8131869775818 56.2276878945812
3/9/2007 -13.5854990830007 62.8255888379273 55.3865524685197
3/10/2007 -7.43903636940757 80.9933618610805 58.5916345526026
3/11/2007 -22.401727308478 94.2514530237833 61.3346908727787
3/12/2007 -32.9167621510046 81.8298168775285 60.048150613903
3/13/2007 -21.7816662636255 90.1398430378816 61.9517660754767
3/14/2007 -28.1880769624049 81.5484368896128 61.1910097403463
3/15/2007 -20.3574271492665 83.9272316196681 62.0721761751
3/16/2007 -21.8550554445681 75.2804842454298 61.1514100756929
3/17/2007 -14.129074169737 78.0118436389399 61.9430431691287
3/18/2007 -16.0688004698111 109.581580261948 67.5872564270066
3/19/2007 -41.9943238349418 93.9270687959558 65.9780360358874
3/20/2007 -27.9490327600684 85.1946303965335 65.1880827969377
3/21/2007 -20.0065475995958 73.0239689113145 63.6359855874868
3/22/2007 -9.38798332382766 62.5919733525553 62.120843073499
3/23/2007 -0.471130279056233 53.6502628736188 60.6417753812729
3/24/2007 6.99151250765406 45.985939605959 59.1979235864806
3/25/2007 13.2119839805217 39.4165196622505 57.788449215374
3/26/2007 18.3719295531234 36.6427311390719 56.8887242340555
3/27/2007 20.2459930949836 31.4080552620616 55.5342307999114
3/28/2007 24.1261755378497 26.9211902246242 54.2119872094373
3/29/2007 27.290796984813 23.0753059068208 52.9212256092126
3/30/2007 29.8459197023918 26.921690777275 52.851672618517
3/31/2007 25.9299818412421 31.6471635233785 53.0218708895047
4/1/2007 21.3747073661262 34.268997305753 52.9499215826118
4/2/2007 18.6809242768587 35.0877119763597 52.6415901163591
4/3/2007 17.5538781399994 40.7894674083083 53.1739332088267
4/4/2007 12.3844658005184 35.8624006356929 52.0578871800452
4/5/2007 16.1954865443523 50.4106291163082 54.0969851043298
4/6/2007 3.68635598802162 73.7519678139784 57.899437839941
4/7/2007 -15.8525299740374 63.2159724119815 56.5208797961329
4/8/2007 -6.69509261584864 81.6422620674127 59.7513350390821
4/9/2007 -21.8909270283306 69.9790817720681 58.3286842048182
4/10/2007 -11.6503975672498 84.1963558046298 60.9756202951797
4/11/2007 -23.2207355094501 82.4825906896827 61.2428674310088
4/12/2007 -21.2397232586739 70.6993634482994 59.7847039207466
4/13/2007 -10.9146595275528 94.9423115271138 64.0850681131098
4/14/2007 -30.857243414004 102.893409880383 66.1449474437501
4/15/2007 -36.7484624366332 88.1943513260428 64.5700677427084
4/16/2007 -23.6242835833344 78.4523011366081 63.5088756535963
4/17/2007 -14.9434254830118 85.5734009742355 65.0515214713678
4/18/2007 -20.5218795028677 92.0629151207733 66.6217233410971
4/19/2007 -25.4411917796762 78.91107010352 65.0354918329758
4/20/2007 -13.8755782705442 71.20948866016 64.0822658369525
4/21/2007 -7.12722282320743 88.7509902801371 67.175545221787
4/22/2007 -21.5754450583501 123.257991668689 73.4404131926968
4/23/2007 -49.8175784759921 105.649707144591 71.6918319262041
4/24/2007 -33.9578752183865 90.5568918382205 69.9848835470087
4/25/2007 -20.5720082912117 78.9773358613318 68.5447672720799
4/26/2007 -10.4325685892519 70.1520021668559 67.3222728132209
4/27/2007 -2.82972935363496 68.9731447144479 67.1931710795728
4/28/2007 -1.77997363487509 99.2198383266696 72.2766670062496
4/29/2007 -26.94317132042 85.0455757085739 70.5557939822913
4/30/2007 -14.4897817262827 72.8962077502062 68.8758941255701
5/1/2007 -4.02031362463617 70.3396066430339 68.5455156940089
5/2/2007 -1.79409094902503 76.7625199797434 69.6587177012944
5/3/2007 -7.10380227844897 80.83930283978 70.5073196607874
5/4/2007 -10.3319831789926 69.2908310055257 68.8285739545782
5/5/2007 -0.462257050947571 59.3921408618792 67.1897983842311
5/6/2007 7.79765752235187 86.6218350244679 71.5424222322256
5/7/2007 -15.0794127922423 77.8187157352582 70.4342693219345
5/8/2007 -7.38444641332372 68.8446134873642 69.1144057666503
5/9/2007 0.26979227928615 71.5668115605979 69.5616818198253
5/10/2007 -2.00512974077255 82.857267051941 71.4911655860199
5/11/2007 -11.3661014659211 71.0205146159495 69.788994976829
5/12/2007 -1.23151963912046 87.7318696708138 72.6035427154759
5/13/2007 -15.1283269553379 116.727316860698 77.7963155079646
5/14/2007 -38.931001352733 100.051985880598 75.9440222815845
5/15/2007 -24.1079635990134 88.0731307547982 74.5215455605944
5/16/2007 -13.5515851942038 80.5341120755413 73.5876992377231
5/17/2007 -6.94641283781824 69.0292389218926 71.8356111606344
5/18/2007 2.80637223874187 66.0536333616222 71.2728585139527
5/19/2007 5.21922515233047 98.8031143099619 76.6068380731443
5/20/2007 -22.1962762368176 84.688383694253 74.7828657380694
5/21/2007 -9.90551795618363 72.5900431665026 73.0023213157344
5/22/2007 0.412278149231824 62.2200369998594 71.2641708082169
5/23/2007 9.04413380835756 53.3314602855937 69.5674048365927
5/24/2007 16.235944550999 56.6269659590804 69.7300856738167
5/25/2007 13.1031197147364 48.5373993934974 68.0698455387258
5/26/2007 19.5324461452284 61.9463423372835 69.8396111211371
5/27/2007 7.8932687838536 53.0968648605287 68.1767632373005
5/28/2007 15.0798983767718 61.2401698804532 69.1749355411743
5/29/2007 7.93476566072111 52.4915741832456 67.5279132663845
5/30/2007 15.0363390831388 88.3213492999248 73.1415343790896
5/31/2007 -15.1798149208352 89.346870828507 73.6738787986351
6/1/2007 -15.6729920298719 90.8687464244345 74.3006912081914
6/2/2007 -16.5680552162432 126.458925506658 80.626865227044
6/3/2007 -45.8320602796142 110.107650434278 78.9928922454477
6/4/2007 -31.1147581888308 94.3779860865244 77.1121090967465
6/5/2007 -17.2658769897778 80.8954166455923 75.276106499205
6/6/2007 -5.61931014638736 72.9103571247934 74.079056344462
6/7/2007 1.16869921966855 62.6660203926801 72.3438407172129
6/8/2007 9.67782032453281 63.7137317651544 72.2880349858507
6/9/2007 8.57430322069632 77.0831986558466 74.3121293909495
6/10/2007 -2.77106926489712 77.2141702764399 74.3999358340221
6/11/2007 -2.81423444241783 108.22643166552 79.6356516474978
6/12/2007 -28.5907800180222 92.7655128561599 77.7395647035097
6/13/2007 -15.0259481526502 99.8275824481371 79.2743369724738
6/14/2007 -20.5532454756633 85.5664992412604 77.3868527588434
6/15/2007 -8.17964648241693 78.4998564925089 76.4038324550615
6/16/2007 -2.09602403744744 103.871305565008 80.6823126347029
6/17/2007 -23.1889929303048 107.032547627149 81.7613051910194
6/18/2007 -25.2712424361299 101.270755108985 81.4027026864714
6/19/2007 -19.8680524225138 101.717790093416 81.9502573844125
6/20/2007 -19.7675327090034 87.1866772229279 79.9990607800217
6/21/2007 -7.18761644290616 77.5885804767953 78.5705117138307
6/22/2007 0.981931237035397 71.5616404086817 77.542642387311
6/23/2007 5.98100197862924 68.0671203502986 76.8178175685655
6/24/2007 8.75069721826684 75.4003888716845 77.8316790550282
6/25/2007 2.43129018334365 64.6289047471582 75.9785438394323
6/26/2007 11.3496390922741 83.9676326404213 78.9314356527791
6/27/2007 -5.03619698764216 85.200827977504 79.2568776610463
6/28/2007 -5.94395031645767 85.6149954092891 79.4674281929261
6/29/2007 -6.14756721636297 77.8557103508192 78.3205846645231
6/30/2007 0.464874313703902 83.5334660149879 79.2558088391773
7/1/2007 -4.27765717581057 71.6001137271325 77.3687657715779
7/2/2007 5.76865204444537 61.3715260518279 75.526652300826

Sorry, I couldn't copy the image right over just raw data:o
Anyway youll see in early june I dug a big hole at the Mt. Hood classic-also i hadn't been eating well before that trying to lose weight. I rested a week and did okay at a criterium 6/9. Following that I did an epic6/11 with a teammate to prep for an upcoming stage race rested tuesday and did a crit 6/13 wed. My tsb was near 0 before the stage race6/16-17(in which I sucked) and quite negative after. I rode easy the following week to be fresh for the state crit championship 6/24 put out some season high sprint numbers the day before and proceeded to get popped halfway thru the crit. I have just been doing light workouts since then because my legs are consistently sore and I don't feel much like riding. I am getting back to eating following chris carmichaels food for fitness and sadly putting on weight🙁 , otherwise all is well-I don't even work in the summer. 😎
My plan had called for some long sst work this week but I still have sore legs and don't really feel like riding all that much
So I am at a loss with stage races planned the next two weekends. Do I rest up for those and risk being stale or train and risk overdoing it?....and to top it all off, my wife says we can't afford coaching until we get a few debts paid off😠

QUOTE=daveryanwyoming]What does your CTL and ATL look like between those times when your TSB peaks for races? IOW are you in constant taper mode with a lot of races? What sort of work are you doing in the weeks between the races? Are you resting two days before the weekend and doing a wake up/openers ride the day before or resting Friday for a Saturday race? Are you increasing mileage and doing longer slower rides to build CTL or are you emphasizing intensity? Have you lost weight or are you staying steady? How about life in general, any extra job or life stress, late nights, etc?

Lots of things can lead to mid season burnout and it can just as easily be too little as well as too much training. How about posting a screen shot of your Performance Manager with some background on your recent training?

-Dave[/QUOTE]

marmatt said:

... So I am at a loss with stage races planned the next two weekends. Do I rest up for those and risk being stale or train and risk overdoing it?...

Well, can't make heads or tails out of that data string, 'spose I could paste it into Excel and plot it but won't bother. For future reference, just hit shift-PrintScreen on a PC then paste it into a blank document. I use an image editing program and save it as a JPEG for posting.

Anyway, it sounds like you desperately need a couple of days totally off and then an SST based ramp up to regain fitness and motivation. You might miss one or both of the coming stage races but you sound like you're headed in the wrong direction right now. I was getting a bit overworked and stale after a weekend SR in early June and was able to save it by swapping all my high end work for SST for two weeks. That was plenty to get me fired back up and by the second week those SST sessions were moving up into L4 and feeling great. I did another SR this weekend and felt great and raced real well. It was pretty touch and go three weeks ago but the SST once again pulled me back.

It sounds like the same sort of SST recovery might have been enough a week or two ago but now it sounds like a couple extra days off before an SST cycle would be a good idea. Skip any group hammerfest rides or weeknight training races for at least a week or two and get your mojo and recovery working again.

Good luck,
Dave

What are your CTL and ATL constants set at? You may need to increase your ATL constant. By doing this you will be increasing the impact that your more recent workouts have on TSB. But you say you don't "feel" like riding. I would tend to hazard a guess that you are more mentally fatigued than physically. I dunno what to suggest. Perhaps have some blood work done to see if there are any abnormalities.

just set at the standard 42 and 7.

RoadBikeGuy said:

What are your CTL and ATL constants set at? You may need to increase your ATL constant. By doing this you will be increasing the impact that your more recent workouts have on TSB. But you say you don't "feel" like riding. I would tend to hazard a guess that you are more mentally fatigued than physically. I dunno what to suggest. Perhaps have some blood work done to see if there are any abnormalities.

marmatt said:

Any other ideas?

There's more to how you feel than CTL and ATL alone. Are you eating correctly after training? Eating enough before riding? Getting enough sleep? Working too hard? Losing weight? Drinking enough water?

Your PMC chart looks good to me. I'd say to definitely investigate the "other ideas".

Finally, for those of us who can't dedicate the time to get to a CTL of 100+, the content (i.e. what mix of L4~7 you're doing) of your training is very important too. Get that wrong and you can have a CTL in the 70's and 80's and still be missing some snap. Average weekly IF is an interesting metric on content.

beerco said:

There's more to how you feel than CTL and ATL alone. Are you eating correctly after training? Eating enough before riding? Getting enough sleep? Working too hard? Losing weight? Drinking enough water?

I can attest to this one. I've been struck with the "my CTL/TSB looks fine yet I hate life every time I try to train" syndrome. So this may or may not be the issue, but do make sure you're eating enough.

-Eric

I've attached an excel version. I can say that when my TSB comes up that fast at any time, I don't feel like I get the "positive" benefits.

You also seem to spend a lot of time WAY low on TSB. Your chart shows a lot of -20's and lower. I can say that I am rarely that low on TSB and can't imagine how you are recovering from those.

There are weeks "mid training" your CTL is increasing by 9 or 10. That's a pretty high increase. I would question your FTP estimate if you feel you're getting recovery in those weeks or consider checking the hit you're taking to long term recovery ability after weeks of that much training. This might be a sign of overreaching which may delay your ability to gain the positive effects of a positive TSB.

NomadVW said:

I've attached an excel version. I can say that when my TSB comes up that fast at any time, I don't feel like I get the "positive" benefits.

You also seem to spend a lot of time WAY low on TSB. Your chart shows a lot of -20's and lower. I can say that I am rarely that low on TSB and can't imagine how you are recovering from those.

There are weeks "mid training" your CTL is increasing by 9 or 10. That's a pretty high increase. I would question your FTP estimate if you feel you're getting recovery in those weeks or consider checking the hit you're taking to long term recovery ability after weeks of that much training. This might be a sign of overreaching which may delay your ability to gain the positive effects of a positive TSB.

FTP, ATL, CTL, TSB are just numbers. They're estimates based on educated assumptions and they pertain to just one factor that affects your ability to train and to recover. Because there are many other factors, sometimes TSB is meaningful, and sometimes it's not. Use the numbers, but develop the ability to listen to your body too.

To be honest, your numbers don't show that you're attempting to carry much of a training load. I would look for other factors in your life that may be affecting your motivation and energy level.

Your motivation is the single most important ingredient to sucess in bike racing. Guard it well.

NomadVW said:

I...There are weeks "mid training" your CTL is increasing by 9 or 10. That's a pretty high increase. .... This might be a sign of overreaching which may delay your ability to gain the positive effects of a positive TSB.

+1 on this PMC analysis.

The graph makes it clear that you've got some erratic jumps and falls in your CTL and the very end of your CTL ramp is awfully steep. All these posts are right on target regarding motivation, training mix, etc. But one way or another you've had some big jumps followed by big dips in CTL. That reinforces the idea that you should take a bit of time off and do some SST based CTL building at a steady pace like 3-6 TSS/day/week.

-Dave

I agree with most of those sentiments. I was definitley getting too caught up in my power to weight ratio and eating far too little. I also have the bad habit of training really hard for a few days and then needing alot of rest. part of this though is tied to the fact that I was preparing for the Gila, mt. hood and a bunch of smaller stage races. I've taken 2 days off and i am itching to ride again. I was wondering whether its a good idea to do a threshold test since I'm rested or just start the SST.
By the way, thanks everyone I truly appreciate your advice and taking time to help out a fellow "watt weenie"😉

marmatt said:

I've taken 2 days off and i am itching to ride again. I was wondering whether its a good idea to do a threshold test since I'm rested or just start the SST.

I suppose you could call yourself in transition. Take the rest of the week to get back on the bike and do some easy riding. Then re-test functional threshold and get going again. Either way, I would definitely want to re-test threshold before "resetting" training for new goals.