Trolls and arguments

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you are new to this ng (like me) you will very quickly notice that

there

Quoted message said:

is a very concentrated attempt to discredit any claims made about the effectiveness of alternative
cures or approaches to medical problems.

Translation: There are people who do not accept the feel good approach, or the "try it you'll like
it argument" and ask for some facts to back up claims.

Quoted message said:

The first thing you will notice is that these people always try and discredit any item whatsoever
, in other words they just attack anything

at

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all . This is a direct indication of their real motives .

Translation: I have no facts to support my allegations, but, Iwill create a conspiracy to make
myself look like a victim to enhance my otherwise pathetic level of credibility.

Quoted message said:

The reason you have come here is to seek other points of view outside the mainstream medical ones
. Take the time to read through the items offered here as there are many worthwhile links and good
information to be had .

Translation: Accept whatever shills for all altmed offer without questioning from a scientific and
factual standpoint.

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You will very quickly learn to do what I have done and killfile those annoying trolls .

Translation: I was asked to back up my claims and when i did not, I was asked again. I personally
find providing proof of my claims to be annoying.

Quoted message said:

All those genuine posters here should also take the point , the only

reason

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these idiots hang around is because you give them reason to . I found out quickly that the
arguments you enter into are boring and repetitive and always go nowhere , so why bother guys ? .
Try a no response reaction

and

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see how quickly they lose interest .

Translation: You can make any argument go nowhere by not answering a direct question. When pressed
for a response, tell the other person that they are boring and repetitive.

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Trolls and arguments From: "Bew" qw@nonamewhatsover Date: 3/2/2004 9:51 PM Pacific
Standard Time Message-id: <[email hidden]>

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

>Subject: Trolls and arguments From: "Bew" qw@nonamewhatsover Date: 3/2/2004 7:26 PM Pacific
>Standard Time Message-id: <[email hidden]>
>
>If you are new to this ng (like me) you will very quickly notice that

there

Quoted message said:

>is a very concentrated attempt to discredit any claims made about the effectiveness of
>alternative cures or approaches to medical problems.
>
>The first thing you will notice is that these people always try and discredit any item
>whatsoever , in other words they just attack

anything

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

at

Quoted message said:

>all . This is a direct indication of their real motives .
>
>The reason you have come here is to seek other points of view outside

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>mainstream medical ones . Take the time to read through the items

offered

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>here as there are many worthwhile links and good information to be had

.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
>You will very quickly learn to do what I have done and killfile those annoying trolls .
>
>All those genuine posters here should also take the point , the only

reason

Quoted message said:

>these idiots hang around is because you give them reason to . I found

out

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>quickly that the arguments you enter into are boring and repetitive

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>always go nowhere , so why bother guys ? . Try a no response

reaction

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

>see how quickly they lose interest .
>
>
>
>Bew

While I agree with much you have to say, they don't lose interest, they

are

Quoted message said:

obsessed with belittling and badgering.

Their aim is to run off those who have used alternative medicine with

success,

Quoted message said:

or yack about placebo. In reality, they know alternative mediicine is

growing

Quoted message said:

and it eats their socks, because they have an insane EGO and can't

stand

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Quoted message said:

to be

Quoted message said:

wrong.

Jan

Cur for Richard H Jacobson to appear and start with his usual as is his

long

Quoted message said:

time pattern.

Rich is a cyberstalker and he has been stalking Jan for a long time.

John

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bain

So you are saying we need to argue with these deadshits ? Bew

NOPE. I am saying it matters not, their pattern will remain the same as

they

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are obsessed. That's why most of them remain in my killfile. I take them

out

Quoted message said:

every once in a while to review and expose thier pattern and their lies.

Jan forgot to criticize Beww for the nasty language. I wonder why she forgot?

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Trolls and arguments From: "Bew" qw@nonamewhatsover Date: 3/2/2004 9:51 PM Pacific
Standard Time Message-id: <[email hidden]>

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

>Subject: Trolls and arguments From: "Bew" qw@nonamewhatsover Date: 3/2/2004 7:26 PM Pacific
>Standard Time Message-id: <[email hidden]>
>
>If you are new to this ng (like me) you will very quickly notice that

there

Quoted message said:

>is a very concentrated attempt to discredit any claims made about the effectiveness of
>alternative cures or approaches to medical problems.
>
>The first thing you will notice is that these people always try and discredit any item
>whatsoever , in other words they just attack

anything

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

at

Quoted message said:

>all . This is a direct indication of their real motives .
>
>The reason you have come here is to seek other points of view outside

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>mainstream medical ones . Take the time to read through the items

offered

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>here as there are many worthwhile links and good information to be had

.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
>You will very quickly learn to do what I have done and killfile those annoying trolls .
>
>All those genuine posters here should also take the point , the only

reason

Quoted message said:

>these idiots hang around is because you give them reason to . I found

out

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>quickly that the arguments you enter into are boring and repetitive

and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>always go nowhere , so why bother guys ? . Try a no response

reaction

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and

Quoted message said:

>see how quickly they lose interest .
>
>
>
>Bew

While I agree with much you have to say, they don't lose interest, they

are

Quoted message said:

obsessed with belittling and badgering.

Their aim is to run off those who have used alternative medicine with

success,

Quoted message said:

or yack about placebo. In reality, they know alternative mediicine is

growing

Quoted message said:

and it eats their socks, because they have an insane EGO and can't

stand

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to be

Quoted message said:

wrong.

Jan

Cur for Richard H Jacobson to appear and start with his usual as is his

long

Quoted message said:

time pattern.

Rich is a cyberstalker and he has been stalking Jan for a long time.

John

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Bain

So you are saying we need to argue with these deadshits ? Bew

NOPE. I am saying it matters not, their pattern will remain the same as

they

Quoted message said:

are obsessed. That's why most of them remain in my killfile. I take them

out

Quoted message said:

every once in a while to review and expose thier pattern and their lies.

Jan forgot to criticize Beww for the nasty language. I wonder why she forgot?

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040303010306.15108.00000795@mb-
m18.aol.com...

Quoted message said:

<< While I agree with much you have to say, they don't lose interest, they

are

Quoted message said:

obsessed with belittling and badgering. >>

And it gets frustrating, because you find yourself coming back at them,

because

Quoted message said:

they are so disgusting, that they can make you sick. You'd like to

ignore

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

them, however, sometimes, you wonder how many lives could be saved if

the

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stuff

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discussed in here, has worked for some people, and is belittled by

"them",

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Quoted message said:

isn't challenged by some of us with personal experience, because can you imagine someone who is
at wits end with a problem that perhaps

alternative

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

medicine could actually help? If they listened to the "garbage" that

some

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

the anti-alts had to say, they might miss out on a therapy that might

work

Quoted message said:

for

Quoted message said:

them. And really who only knows if there isn't just one or two people here

that

Quoted message said:

use

Quoted message said:

a variety of handles to make it look like a whole mess of people are

posting.

Quoted message said:

Just watch for the "gang bang" when you post something they don't like.

<< Their aim is to run off those who have used alternative medicine with success, or yack about
placebo. In reality, they know alternative mediicine is

growing

Quoted message said:

and it eats their socks, because they have an insane EGO and can't stand

to be

Quoted message said:

wrong. >>

Ain't that the truth. However, they want "proof", and my "proof" isn't

any of

Quoted message said:

their business. I know what has worked for me (and what hasn't), and

some

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

the (and what hasn't), was conventional medicine, and being prescribed

drugs

Quoted message said:

that made me (and conventional medicine admitted to this) even

sicker....who

Quoted message said:

says you cannot take your ownself off of prednisone....watch me

doc.....and

Quoted message said:

"what part of this do you not get?"

"If you're gonna walk on thin ice, you may as well dance." (Jessie

Winchester).

I like your response and your attitude . I feel the same way as you do , thanks for your reply
:-) , you sound like a very sensible and articulate person . You are right , the word needs to go
out and it needs to be defended as there are people out there who need to know about the
alternatives .

I wonder fi you like Debbee's anti-Judaism, too?

Quoted message said:

Also I like your "thin ice " quote .

It is erroneous.

And, i expect you would not know that.

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040303010306.15108.00000795@mb-
m18.aol.com...

Quoted message said:

<< While I agree with much you have to say, they don't lose interest, they

are

Quoted message said:

obsessed with belittling and badgering. >>

And it gets frustrating, because you find yourself coming back at them,

because

Quoted message said:

they are so disgusting, that they can make you sick. You'd like to

ignore

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

them, however, sometimes, you wonder how many lives could be saved if

the

Quoted message said:

stuff

Quoted message said:

discussed in here, has worked for some people, and is belittled by

"them",

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

isn't challenged by some of us with personal experience, because can you imagine someone who is
at wits end with a problem that perhaps

alternative

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

medicine could actually help? If they listened to the "garbage" that

some

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

the anti-alts had to say, they might miss out on a therapy that might

work

Quoted message said:

for

Quoted message said:

them. And really who only knows if there isn't just one or two people here

that

Quoted message said:

use

Quoted message said:

a variety of handles to make it look like a whole mess of people are

posting.

Quoted message said:

Just watch for the "gang bang" when you post something they don't like.

<< Their aim is to run off those who have used alternative medicine with success, or yack about
placebo. In reality, they know alternative mediicine is

growing

Quoted message said:

and it eats their socks, because they have an insane EGO and can't stand

to be

Quoted message said:

wrong. >>

Ain't that the truth. However, they want "proof", and my "proof" isn't

any of

Quoted message said:

their business. I know what has worked for me (and what hasn't), and

some

Quoted message said:

of

Quoted message said:

the (and what hasn't), was conventional medicine, and being prescribed

drugs

Quoted message said:

that made me (and conventional medicine admitted to this) even

sicker....who

Quoted message said:

says you cannot take your ownself off of prednisone....watch me

doc.....and

Quoted message said:

"what part of this do you not get?"

"If you're gonna walk on thin ice, you may as well dance." (Jessie

Winchester).

I like your response and your attitude . I feel the same way as you do , thanks for your reply
:-) , you sound like a very sensible and articulate person . You are right , the word needs to go
out and it needs to be defended as there are people out there who need to know about the
alternatives .

I wonder fi you like Debbee's anti-Judaism, too?

Quoted message said:

Also I like your "thin ice " quote .

It is erroneous.

And, i expect you would not know that.

"HCN" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:G9e1c.167318$jk2.615693@attbi_s53...

Quoted message said:

<Rich.@.> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

carabelli said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote................

> Cool , you had your say , bye bye .

Quoted message said:

I think the majority of alties here expect and would prefer discussion

among

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

themselves without confrontation.

Of course. And I could understand why. Their belief that various alternative treatments really
work is either due to faith or an assumption about cause and effect wrt their personal
experience.

When they are asked to provide the objective evidence that the alternative treatment really
works they are unable to do so and get frustrated. They then often will lash out and attack the
person asking the question. It is quite predictable.

My sense is that many of the alties really want/need to believe that the alternative
treatments work.

Many of the alties have rejected conventional medicine and really need to have something that
they believe will either treat their illnesses or prevent future problems.

This is especially true among the somatically hypervigilant who need to believe in order to
reduce their anxiety. Questioning them about various alternative treatments threatens their
security so their negative reaction is understandable.

The alties keep trying to drive the skeptics and those who question alternative therapy
efficacy, away from this group. I have been a regular poster in this newsgroup since shortly
after its inception well over a decade ago. The names change but the dynamics remain the same. I
don't believe that there is a single altie that was a regular when I began posting in this group
that is still here.

Aloha,

Rich

..

I'm not a true regular... I pop in once in a while. I decided to because

of

Quoted message said:

participation in an email list pertaining to one child's severe speech disability, which has an
occasional posting declaring some odd oil,

vitamin

Quoted message said:

or cranial massage, etc has made a remarkable improvement their child ---

or

Quoted message said:

even that some "lab" has found a horrible chemical (like bismuth) in their child's hair and now
they must give the child some kind of "oral

chelation"

Quoted message said:

therapy (I still do not understand why a parent would force a kid to

consume

Quoted message said:

possibly dangerous chemicals on the advice from the person who sold them a hair "analysis"😉. I
will often use the links posted on this newsgroup to post antidotes to some of the misinformation
posted ... and occasionally

see

Quoted message said:

unmoderated reactions to things that were posted on the list (I saw the

Feb.

Quoted message said:

9th press release on the Institute of Medicine meeting way before it was posted twice here this
week, which is why I knew about the presentation slides).

BUT... recently a relative has started to go heavily into alternative medicines to help her "ills"
of the past 5 years. She has sent me "whale.to" links on the dangers of vaccines, decided to clear
her kitchen

of

Quoted message said:

any food that had certain ingredients, and has bought and bought lots of supplements and herbal
compounds --- despite having quit her job a couple

of

Quoted message said:

years ago and living off of her savings. Last month she became so irrational her family checked
her into a psychiatric hospital, where she

was

Quoted message said:

diagnosed as being bipolar. She was placed on medication and has improved significally (and
hopefully will de-clutter her house, there are pathways between boxes, video tapes, and 3 exercise
machines to get from room to room).

I think many of the more ardent alt-med posters (not all... especially

those

Quoted message said:

who are trying sell their nostrums) are not really thinking clearly. Many may actually believe
that convetional medicine is evil... and one

particular

Quoted message said:

one may actually believe he has completed the work and received a PhD, a kind of "delusions of
intelligence". Truthfully, to glean the most useful information quickly that I have kill-filed
many of those folks, but not all -- just the more manic ones.

In the past month our family has learned lots about mental illness, with

one

Quoted message said:

scary revelation. It is very common and often genetic. At anytime one of us can start to suffer
from the delusions, disorganized speech,

depression,

Quoted message said:

voices, etc, etc. Sometimes it is only a matter of time (most of the information I found was for
geriatric patients, which my relative is not).

By the way on a related note, I have learned a new word this week: cyperchondria . On
www.google.com it brought up 5990 hits.

A variation of the 'Marcus Welby Syndrome".

"HCN" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:G9e1c.167318$jk2.615693@attbi_s53...

Quoted message said:

<Rich.@.> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

carabelli said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote................

> Cool , you had your say , bye bye .

Quoted message said:

I think the majority of alties here expect and would prefer discussion

among

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

themselves without confrontation.

Of course. And I could understand why. Their belief that various alternative treatments really
work is either due to faith or an assumption about cause and effect wrt their personal
experience.

When they are asked to provide the objective evidence that the alternative treatment really
works they are unable to do so and get frustrated. They then often will lash out and attack the
person asking the question. It is quite predictable.

My sense is that many of the alties really want/need to believe that the alternative
treatments work.

Many of the alties have rejected conventional medicine and really need to have something that
they believe will either treat their illnesses or prevent future problems.

This is especially true among the somatically hypervigilant who need to believe in order to
reduce their anxiety. Questioning them about various alternative treatments threatens their
security so their negative reaction is understandable.

The alties keep trying to drive the skeptics and those who question alternative therapy
efficacy, away from this group. I have been a regular poster in this newsgroup since shortly
after its inception well over a decade ago. The names change but the dynamics remain the same. I
don't believe that there is a single altie that was a regular when I began posting in this group
that is still here.

Aloha,

Rich

..

I'm not a true regular... I pop in once in a while. I decided to because

of

Quoted message said:

participation in an email list pertaining to one child's severe speech disability, which has an
occasional posting declaring some odd oil,

vitamin

Quoted message said:

or cranial massage, etc has made a remarkable improvement their child ---

or

Quoted message said:

even that some "lab" has found a horrible chemical (like bismuth) in their child's hair and now
they must give the child some kind of "oral

chelation"

Quoted message said:

therapy (I still do not understand why a parent would force a kid to

consume

Quoted message said:

possibly dangerous chemicals on the advice from the person who sold them a hair "analysis"😉. I
will often use the links posted on this newsgroup to post antidotes to some of the misinformation
posted ... and occasionally

see

Quoted message said:

unmoderated reactions to things that were posted on the list (I saw the

Feb.

Quoted message said:

9th press release on the Institute of Medicine meeting way before it was posted twice here this
week, which is why I knew about the presentation slides).

BUT... recently a relative has started to go heavily into alternative medicines to help her "ills"
of the past 5 years. She has sent me "whale.to" links on the dangers of vaccines, decided to clear
her kitchen

of

Quoted message said:

any food that had certain ingredients, and has bought and bought lots of supplements and herbal
compounds --- despite having quit her job a couple

of

Quoted message said:

years ago and living off of her savings. Last month she became so irrational her family checked
her into a psychiatric hospital, where she

was

Quoted message said:

diagnosed as being bipolar. She was placed on medication and has improved significally (and
hopefully will de-clutter her house, there are pathways between boxes, video tapes, and 3 exercise
machines to get from room to room).

I think many of the more ardent alt-med posters (not all... especially

those

Quoted message said:

who are trying sell their nostrums) are not really thinking clearly. Many may actually believe
that convetional medicine is evil... and one

particular

Quoted message said:

one may actually believe he has completed the work and received a PhD, a kind of "delusions of
intelligence". Truthfully, to glean the most useful information quickly that I have kill-filed
many of those folks, but not all -- just the more manic ones.

In the past month our family has learned lots about mental illness, with

one

Quoted message said:

scary revelation. It is very common and often genetic. At anytime one of us can start to suffer
from the delusions, disorganized speech,

depression,

Quoted message said:

voices, etc, etc. Sometimes it is only a matter of time (most of the information I found was for
geriatric patients, which my relative is not).

By the way on a related note, I have learned a new word this week: cyperchondria . On
www.google.com it brought up 5990 hits.

A variation of the 'Marcus Welby Syndrome".

[email hidden] (DEBBEE1023) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

<< While I agree with much you have to say, they don't lose interest, they are obsessed with
belittling and badgering. >>

And it gets frustrating, because you find yourself coming back at them, because they are so
disgusting, that they can make you sick. You'd like to ignore them, however, sometimes, you
wonder how many lives could be saved if the stuff discussed in here, has worked for some people,
and is belittled by "them", isn't challenged by some of us with personal experience, because can
you imagine someone who is at wits end with a problem that perhaps alternative medicine could
actually help?

Don't worry, people will continue to try anything no matter what is said on this NG. Immortality
rings, "cleanses" for "toxins" that aren't specified or measured before or after the fact, zappers,
yanking out teeth, & all sorts of other alt. ideas (good & bad) will be auditioned for the big show.
Many people without any health problems will give 'em a whirl. People who should be seeking other
treatments will too. It's going to happen & nothing said on MHA -- or anywhere else -- will change
that. You definitely overestimate the importance of the opinions of people on the 'net. "Saving
lives" -- puhleeze! Nobody here is saving lives. For goodness' sake, it's a discussion group --
nothing else.

Quoted message said:

If they listened to the "garbage" that some of the anti-alts had to say, they might miss out on a
therapy that might work for them.

Geez, nobody wants to miss out on something like immortality rings!

Your choice of the words "miss out" is interesting -- effective treatments don't get "missed out"
on. They are endorsed by laypeople, medical providers, & everybody making money from them. They are
studied & the results of the research into them are heralded in the media.

Quoted message said:

And really who only knows if there isn't just one or two people here that use a variety of handles
to make it look like a whole mess of people are posting.

The same could be said about those advocating anything "all natural", "organic", & "alternative".
Maybe YOU are using multiple identities -- it's just as likely as anyone else doing so. And what
difference does it make if one person expresses a particular POV or ten do? Does it make the opinion
more accurate? Nope.

Quoted message said:

Just watch for the "gang bang" when you post something they don't like.

thread again? Weird....

And the difference when the shoe is on the other foot? None. Even when discussing disgusting anti-
Semetism or homophobic rhetoric, other posters feel free to express their bigotry in response to
opinions they don't like. So? It's called freedom of speech. You certainly take advantage of it, but
you have such a nagging problem with others doing the same. Tough.

Quoted message said:

<< Their aim is to run off those who have used alternative medicine with success, or yack about
placebo. In reality, they know alternative mediicine is growing and it eats their socks, because
they have an insane EGO and can't stand to be wrong. >>

Ain't that the truth. However, they want "proof", and my "proof" isn't any of their business.

Don't expect unquestioned belief WRT what you claim, expecially in light of the whoppers you've
related. Make an unlikely claim, people will call you on it. While you have the right to refuse
answers about your claims, you don't have the right to stop the disbelief. You claim to be a
"journalist" & give no indication through your writing that anyone would pay you to put pen to
paper. You talk about "toxins" being flushed out of people & refuse to specify any particular
toxins or their measurements. People telling the truth have no problem giving specifics to back up
their claims -- people who lie can't. "My blood level of _____ was _____ as measured by the
______test" isn't anything embarassingly personal for someone claiming that they were "cured" of
toxic poisoning by whatever therapy they claim was so helpful. Expect to be disbelieved when the
claim has no objective findings to show its efficacy. Do YOU believe everything everyone tells you?
I hope NOBODY does.

Quoted message said:

I know what has worked for me (and what hasn't), and some of the (and what hasn't), was
conventional medicine, and being prescribed drugs that made me (and conventional medicine admitted
to this) even sicker

As there are alt. treatments that can make a person sicker...... No difference there.

Quoted message said:

....who says you cannot take your ownself off of prednisone....watch me doc

Where in the hell did you ever hear that nonsense? People taper off prednisone all the time. Doctors
advise gradual reduction when the patient has been on HIGH doses, especially for long periods of
time. That's good sense. You've just thrown out another statement to show that you don't know what
you're talking about.

Quoted message said:

.....and "what part of this do you not get?"

There's a lot "you do not get". You're not a radical health care expert -- extraordinary in any way
-- or even in possession of basic critical thinking skills.

Nicely Said Bew!

Notice the pattern of one of the chief trolls here? Question each and every statement no matter how
many times it has been proven or how much common sense their is to it. These people thrive on just
questioning physics and sooner or later somebody cannot prove the laws of nature.

Prove 2 + 2 = 4

Nobody can. It is based on our set out mathematical laws and other than that has no meaning.

Suck it up Richie Rich.

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

<Rich.@.> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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Bew' qw@nonamewhatsover said:

If you are new to this ng (like me) you will very quickly notice that

there

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is a very concentrated attempt to discredit any claims made about the effectiveness of
alternative cures or approaches to medical problems.

This is a discussion group. Alternative treatments by their very nature have little objective
evidence that they really work as they are often claimed to. So it is reasonable that if someone
asserts that an alternative treatment really works that someone will express skepticism and ask
for some kind of evidence for efficacy.

Do you think that asking for evidence of efficacy is inappropriate especially when incredible
claims are made for various alternative treatments. For example Hulda Clark claims that she has
the cure for ALL cancers. Should we question this claim or just accept it.

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The first thing you will notice is that these people always try and discredit any item
whatsoever , in other words they just attack

anything

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at

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all . This is a direct indication of their real motives .

Attack?? Do you think asking for evidence of efficacy is attack?? Do you think expressing
skepticism for an alternative treatment curing cancer when there is no evidence for it as an
attack. Please explain what you consider an attack vs someone just expressing skepticism or
doubt.

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The reason you have come here is to seek other points of view outside

the

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mainstream medical ones .

The reason WHO has come here?? This is a group to discuss alternative medicine pro AND con.

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Take the time to read through the items offered here as there are many worthwhile links and
good information to be had

.

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Can you accept that what you consider worthwhile, someone else may consider not worthwhile or
bogus??? Maybe you can give an example of a worthwhile link and why you think it worthwhile.

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You will very quickly learn to do what I have done and killfile those annoying trolls .

Define troll.

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All those genuine posters here should also take the point , the only

reason

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these idiots hang around is because you give them reason to .

Idiots?? Name calling. tsk tsk.

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I found out quickly that the arguments you enter into are boring and repetitive and always go
nowhere , so why bother guys ? . Try a no response

reaction

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and

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see how quickly they lose interest .

Hopefully you don't consider my response to your post to be inappropriate. I sincerely wanted to
respond to your concerns. I am interested in your comments to my thoughts. Hopefully you can
share them with me and we can have a mutually respectful discussion.

Thanx,

Aloha,

Rich

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Bew

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The best defense to logic is ignorance

Cool , you had your say , bye bye .

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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (grisoft.comgrisoft.comOpen ↗). Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375
- Release Date: 18/02/2004

In article <[email hidden]>, "Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover>

Quoted message said:

If you are new to this ng (like me) you will very quickly notice that there is a very concentrated
attempt to discredit any claims made about the effectiveness of alternative cures or approaches to
medical problems.

TRANSLATION: This is not the warm, fuzzy, environment that I was expecting when I discovered this
newsgroup. I had expected an environment where everyone reinforces my altie beliefs, without any
scientists or skeptics around to question them.

Quoted message said:

The first thing you will notice is that these people always try and discredit any item whatsoever
, in other words they just attack anything at all . This is a direct indication of their real
motives .

TRANSLATION: They're asking for evidence that these altie therapies actually do what they are
claimed to do!!! How dare they?

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The reason you have come here is to seek other points of view outside the mainstream medical ones
. Take the time to read through the items offered here as there are many worthwhile links and good
information to be had .

You will very quickly learn to do what I have done and killfile those annoying trolls .

TRANSLATION: Just stick your fingers in your ear, rock back and forth, and go "lalalalalalala," and
maybe you won't hear anything contrary to your beliefs.

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All those genuine posters here should also take the point , the only reason these idiots hang
around is because you give them reason to . I found out quickly that the arguments you enter into
are boring and repetitive and always go nowhere , so why bother guys ? . Try a no response
reaction and see how quickly they lose interest .

TRANSLATION: I can't deal with discussions where actual objective evidence is debated; so I
ignore them.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"

In article said:

On Wed, 3 Mar 2004 11:26:02 +0800, "Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The first thing you will notice is that these people always try and discredit any item whatsoever
, in other words they just attack anything at all . This is a direct indication of their real
motives .

Attack?? Do you think asking for evidence of efficacy is attack?? Do you think expressing
skepticism for an alternative treatment curing cancer when there is no evidence for it as an
attack. Please explain what you consider an attack vs someone just expressing skepticism or doubt.

Bew seems unable to distinguish legitimate skepticism from "attacks." To her, any questioning of her
pet alt-med therapies or ideas is seen as an attack.

[Snip]

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"

In article <[email hidden]>,

(DEBBEE1023) said:

Ain't that the truth. However, they want "proof", and my "proof" isn't any of their business.

Sure it is. If you bring up a topic on this newsgroup, it becomes the business of anyone on the
newsgroup who shows an interest. If you truly think it's nobody's business but your own, then don't
bring it up.

[Snip]

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"

I have to disagree witha few items.

People that come here and are inquiring are already interested in alternative cures.

I do not like your signature line I think it is a stupid thing to say, only because of personal
experiences with certain people with that attitude. I take this to mean, since you could get hit by
a car on the road, you might as well walk across with your eyes closed. This is retarded thinking,
but it did make me think. No offense intended, I like most of your stuff, other than that
Debbee....LOL

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:20040303010306.15108.00000795@mb-
m18.aol.com...

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<< While I agree with much you have to say, they don't lose interest, they

are

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obsessed with belittling and badgering. >>

And it gets frustrating, because you find yourself coming back at them,

because

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they are so disgusting, that they can make you sick. You'd like to

ignore

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them, however, sometimes, you wonder how many lives could be saved if

the

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stuff

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discussed in here, has worked for some people, and is belittled by

"them",

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isn't challenged by some of us with personal experience, because can you imagine someone who is
at wits end with a problem that perhaps

alternative

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medicine could actually help? If they listened to the "garbage" that

some

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of

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the anti-alts had to say, they might miss out on a therapy that might

work

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for

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them. And really who only knows if there isn't just one or two people here

that

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use

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a variety of handles to make it look like a whole mess of people are

posting.

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Just watch for the "gang bang" when you post something they don't like.

<< Their aim is to run off those who have used alternative medicine with success, or yack about
placebo. In reality, they know alternative mediicine is

growing

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and it eats their socks, because they have an insane EGO and can't stand

to be

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wrong. >>

Ain't that the truth. However, they want "proof", and my "proof" isn't

any of

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their business. I know what has worked for me (and what hasn't), and

some

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of

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the (and what hasn't), was conventional medicine, and being prescribed

drugs

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that made me (and conventional medicine admitted to this) even

sicker....who

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says you cannot take your ownself off of prednisone....watch me

doc.....and

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"what part of this do you not get?"

"If you're gonna walk on thin ice, you may as well dance." (Jessie

Winchester).

I like your response and your attitude . I feel the same way as you do , thanks for your reply
:-) , you sound like a very sensible and articulate person . You are right , the word needs to go
out and it needs to be defended as there are people out there who need to know about the
alternatives .

Also I like your "thin ice " quote .

Bew

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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (grisoft.comgrisoft.comOpen ↗). Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375
- Release Date: 18/02/2004

In article <[email hidden]>, "Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover>

Quoted message said:

Cool , you had your say , bye bye .

And one can't help but note that you are unable or unwilling to answer a single one of Rich's
points, all of which were legitimate.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"

In article
<[email hidden]>,

carabelli said:

"Bew" <qw@nonamewhatsover> wrote................

Quoted message said:

Cool , you had your say , bye bye .

Why does this remind me of a political discussion?

I think the majority of alties here expect and would prefer discussion among themselves without
confrontation.

The problem is, too many alties view any skepticism voiced about their favorite therapies or ideas
as "confrontation" and respond accordingly.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"

Orac said:

In article said:

Cool , you had your say , bye bye .

And one can't help but note that you are unable or unwilling to answer a single one of Rich's
points, all of which were legitimate.

Cue Jan to cowardly attack me from behind her imaginary kill file.

Aloha,

Rich

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The best defense to logic is ignorance

In article <[email hidden]>,
"Mark Probert-March 3, 2004" <Mark [email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Trolls and arguments From: "Bew" qw@nonamewhatsover Date: 3/2/2004 9:51 PM Pacific
Standard Time Message-id: <[email hidden]>

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So you are saying we need to argue with these deadshits ? Bew

NOPE. I am saying it matters not, their pattern will remain the same as

they

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are obsessed. That's why most of them remain in my killfile. I take them

out

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every once in a while to review and expose thier pattern and their lies.

Jan forgot to criticize Beww for the nasty language. I wonder why she forgot?

Indeed. If you or I used bad language, Jan would be all over us.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"

In article said:

Bew' qw@nonamewhatsover said:

"DEBBEE1023" <[email hidden]> wrote in message I feel the same way as you do , thanks
for your reply :-) , you sound like a very sensible and articulate person .

<Choking>

You owe me a new keyboard. Now this is a real keeper.

Someone describing Debbee as "very sensible" and "articulate". Lord have mercy.

Indeed, given that this is the same DEBBEE who about a year ago blamed a "certain ethnic group"
(Jews) for "suppressing" alt med and openly wondered if [censored] might have been right about the Jews.

--
Orac |"A statement of fact cannot be insolent."
|
|"If you cannot listen to the answers, why do you inconvenience me with questions?"

Orac said:

In article <[email hidden]>, "Mark Probert-March 3, 2004" <Mark

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"Jan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

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>So you are saying we need to argue with these deadshits ? Bew

NOPE. I am saying it matters not, their pattern will remain the same as

they

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are obsessed.

Jan forgot to criticize Beww for the nasty language. I wonder why she forgot?

Indeed. If you or I used bad language, Jan would be all over us.

Not only that. Jan would save that reply (deadshit) and repost it whenever she wanted to discredit
that person. But when one of her buddies says it she gives them a free pass. And Jan accuses others
of being selective and have a ye ole boys club. Lord have mercy.

Aloha,

Rich

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The best defense to logic is ignorance

Quoted message said:

Subject: Re: Trolls and arguments
From: Orac [email hidden]
Date: 3/3/04 8:24 PM Eastern Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

In article said:

If you are new to this ng (like me) you will very quickly notice that there is a very
concentrated attempt to discredit any claims made about the effectiveness of alternative cures or
approaches to medical problems.

TRANSLATION: This is not the warm, fuzzy, environment that I

Quoted message said:

TRANSLATION: This is not the warm, fuzzy, environment that I was expecting when I discovered this
newsgroup. I had expected an environment where everyone reinforces my altie beliefs, without any
scientists or skeptics around to question them.

Explanation: The so called scientists or skeptics that abound here do not question in fairness.
Their goal is to insult, demean, degrade, and otherwise cause mayhem such that the medical monopoly
continues unabated with its goals of extracting as much money and power as it can from the
supplicants called patients.

I am a scientist.

I am not a member of the church of modern medicine.

I will not encourage you to try and cut-burn-poison yourself into health.

Those that encourage you to do so by discouraging any rational discussion of alternative procedures
need to be scourged and crucified as in the Passion.

DrC PhD