treadmill vs. road ??

Not the same, but useful. Don't assume the pace/speed is accurate, set it for what you are
comfortable and time your runs, rather than measuring distance.

Many people feel treadmills are easier, and most have a softer running surface, but I don't
think there is anything that makes them easier, unless you are changing your stride without
thinking when you are on one.

--
Joseph E. Meehan

26 + 6 = 1 It's Irish Math

"alan m" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi, I am now travelling for business alot more than I was in the past. I have never used
treadmills (Except for a rehab a couple yrs. ago) For my marathon training can I use hotel
treadmills and get the same training benefit as I do on a road?

I run(jog?) about a 10:00 minute pace (215 lbs.!) / so about 6 mph.

In a strange town I don't know the distances, where the local water fountains are, if it is even
safe, ...

Any input would be appreciated. Thank you.

alan m said:

Hi, I am now travelling for business alot more than I was in the past. I have never used
treadmills (Except for a rehab a couple yrs. ago) For my marathon training can I use hotel
treadmills and get the same training benefit as I do on a road?

I run(jog?) about a 10:00 minute pace (215 lbs.!) / so about 6 mph.

In a strange town I don't know the distances, where the local water fountains are, if it is even
safe, ...

Having gotten lost in the dark in a strange city once and about doubling the time of my long run
(and almost missing my meeting, not to mention seedy area that hotel was next to), I can relate
to this 😉

Even in a strange city (aside from safety issues and getting lost), you could just run by time and
effort and take water with you. I usually take a water bottle with me anyway.

I rarely use a treadmill but if you're changing hotels, you're probably not going to know if the
treadmill is calibrated or not.

I'd go by time and perceived effort on the treadmill. I think I've seen studies that say to increase
the slope by about 2% to make it equivalent effort to road.

FWIW, I'm setting the treadmill during circuit training (1 min work session, but well into 2-hr,
mostly hard training session) about 2 mph faster than my easy running speed (6mph treadmill with 0%
slope vs 4mph or slower, sometimes much slower with steeper hills, for "easy" effort on hilly
trails) in order to get any benefit from it. Later in the winter (maybe tomorrow?), we'll increase
the slopes (last one is set at 15%) of of the treadmills to get more benefit from them.

If your marathon is going to be on a hard surface, be sure to get adequate mileage on that type
surface. But treadmill is probably better than nothing.

You might also consider versaclimber or stairmaster if hotel has them.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

In article said:

Hi, I am now travelling for business alot more than I was in the past. I have never used
treadmills (Except for a rehab a couple yrs. ago) For my marathon training can I use hotel
treadmills and get the same training benefit as I do on a road?

Yes. You're still running, and still working your aerobic system. The surface is a little
different -- softer. Besides that, it's much the same. There is a belief that treadmill running is
"easier" because you have no air resistance. It's true that there is no air resistance, but that
means that heat is a major issue, especially when you're in a warm room anyway. It also assumes
that the treadmill is calibrated properly (not always the case) The heat also means that a heart
rate monitor will not work all that well as a training guide -- you'll usually have a higher heart
rate on the treadmill for a given training intensity, and the upward creep in heart rate will
occur more rapidly.

You can either choose to do a perfectly flat run and adjust the incline to get some variety, or use
a built in hill program.

Like Joseph said, they aren't always calibrated that well (and you've got all the other variables to
contend with). Just run at a pace that feels right, and run for about the same amount of time that
you would in an outdoor run.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

As Dot said, crank the thing up a little to get out of it the same effort as you would on a flat
road. I've experimented with the ones at my community center and find for those machines it's 1.5%.
Also, as Donovan said, for variety go with the "random hills" program if the machine has one. It
helps a LOT in breaking up the workout into smaller pieces. In this program there will be parts that
are flat (0%) but then you have other parts which are a lot steeper. You should be able to program
the machine for anythng from light hills to mountains. Doug Burke

alan m said:

Hi, I am now travelling for business alot more than I was in the past. I have never used
treadmills (Except for a rehab a couple yrs. ago) For my marathon training can I use hotel
treadmills and get the same training benefit as I do on a road?

I run(jog?) about a 10:00 minute pace (215 lbs.!) / so about 6 mph.

In a strange town I don't know the distances, where the local water fountains are, if it is even
safe, ...

Any input would be appreciated. Thank you.

In article said:

I'd go by time and perceived effort on the treadmill. I think I've seen studies that say to
increase the slope by about 2% to make it equivalent effort to road.

My understanding is that this only takes into account the energy cost of drag. It doesn't take into
account the lesser cooling that you get on a treadmill with no airflow in a warm room.

When they cool the gym to 60 degrees or less, and put fans near the treadmills, I might consider
adjusting them (-;

Quoted message said:

FWIW, I'm setting the treadmill during circuit training (1 min work session, but well into 2-hr,
mostly hard training session) about 2 mph faster than my easy running speed (6mph treadmill with
0% slope vs 4mph or slower, sometimes much slower with steeper hills, for "easy" effort on hilly
trails) in order to get any benefit from it. Later in the winter (maybe tomorrow?), we'll increase
the slopes (last one is set at 15%) of of the treadmills to get more benefit from them.

Do you think this has more to do with your usualy training surface (soft trails with lots of hills)
or something else ? I find it's pretty similar (I do about the same pace on treadmill and other
surfaces), but I usually run on pavement, road or track, which makes the treadmill the slowest
training surface I use.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

In article said:

n article said:

I'd go by time and perceived effort on the treadmill. I think I've seen studies that say to
increase the slope by about 2% to make it equivalent effort to road.

My understanding is that this only takes into account the energy cost of drag. It doesn't take
into account the lesser cooling that you get on a treadmill with no airflow in a warm room.

I've heard that you don't get any significant effects from air resistance unil about 18 mph, so that
running on a treadmill is not significantly easier than running elsewhere. Who's right?

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

- Homer J. Simpson

In article said:

In article said:

n article said:

I'd go by time and perceived effort on the treadmill. I think I've seen studies that say to
increase the slope by about 2% to make it equivalent effort to road.

My understanding is that this only takes into account the energy cost of drag. It doesn't take
into account the lesser cooling that you get on a treadmill with no airflow in a warm room.

I've heard that you don't get any significant effects from air resistance unil about 18 mph, so
that running on a treadmill is not significantly easier than running elsewhere. Who's right?

The question is, what does "significant" mean ? It means different things in different contexts, so
a qualitative assertion that it is not "significant" doesn't help much unless it's accompanied by a
more quantifiable assertion.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Harold Buck said:

In article said:

n article said:

I'd go by time and perceived effort on the treadmill. I think I've seen studies that say to
increase the slope by about 2% to make it equivalent effort to road.

My understanding is that this only takes into account the energy cost of drag. It doesn't take
into account the lesser cooling that you get on a treadmill with no airflow in a warm room.

I've heard that you don't get any significant effects from air resistance unil about 18 mph, so
that running on a treadmill is not significantly easier than running elsewhere. Who's right?

--Harold Buck

Check out "Daniels Running Formula" pages 182-184 regarding wind. Too much detail to go into here
but as an example a runner having a headwind of just 4MPH requires an increase of VO2 demand of
about 7%. A 7 MPH headwind requires a VO2 increase of about 16%. He also notes that running in a
circuit with equal times with and against the wind does not balance out energy spent, just like
hills. I'm sure there are many a runner who note an increased effort in required for running against
winds far less than 18 MPH. Doug Burke Doug Burke

(alan m) said:

Hi, I am now travelling for business alot more than I was in the past. I have never used treadmills
(Except for a rehab a couple yrs. ago) For my marathon training can I use hotel treadmills and get
the same training benefit as I do on a road?

I run(jog?) about a 10:00 minute pace (215 lbs.!) / so about 6 mph.

In a strange town I don't know the distances, where the local water fountains are, if it is even
safe, ...

Any input would be appreciated. Thank you.

Run 1/2 hour one way, turn around and go back. Don't thank me, just send money.

Joseph Meehan said:

without thinking

A usual problem for you Joe?

Donovan Rebbechi said:

In article said:

I'd go by time and perceived effort on the treadmill. I think I've seen studies that say to
increase the slope by about 2% to make it equivalent effort to road.

My understanding is that this only takes into account the energy cost of drag.

And frequently that's all people are concerned about.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

FWIW, I'm setting the treadmill during circuit training (1 min work session, but well into 2-hr,
mostly hard training session) about 2 mph faster than my easy running speed (6mph treadmill with
0% slope vs 4mph or slower, sometimes much slower with steeper hills, for "easy" effort on hilly
trails) in order to get any benefit from it. Later in the winter (maybe tomorrow?), we'll increase
the slopes (last one is set at 15%) of of the treadmills to get more benefit from them.

Do you think this has more to do with your usualy training surface (soft trails with lots of
hills) or something else ? I find it's pretty similar (I do about the same pace on treadmill and
other surfaces), but I usually run on pavement, road or track, which makes the treadmill the
slowest training surface I use.

Dunno.

Knee jerk response 1: Calibration errors. I have absolutely no idea how accurate the treadmills are.
My own measurements of distance are probably conservative so that my real pace is probably
underestimated (faster than what my numbers show). One of the reasons I posted the numbers was to
give a sense of the degree of difference that can exist - both in terms of calibration and the
effect that footing has. With respect to trail running, this fall was the first time I ran similar
routes enough times under similar weather conditions to even get a grasp on "average" pace. I always
run by perceived effort. Things that affect pace: wind, temperature, mud and its quality (not all
muds are created equal, as Doug will attest to), snow / ice (and their quality), falling snow, rain,
dark, eyes staring back at you in dark, etc. - and not just a few sec/mi, more like a couple
min/mile in deep snow or shoe-sucking mud. That's without considering hills. My easy flat trail in
town may have differences of a couple min/mile, depending on conditions. What I'm saying in a round
about way is that "pace" is a concept that really only has meaning under very limited conditions -
like flat roads in good weather.

Knee jerk response 2: Flat treadmill running is *really* easy compared with hilly trails. We leave
treadmills running at 5mph, hop on, adjust for whatever we want, then back to 5mph for next person.
I found 5mph on flat treadmill, which is my "race" pace for 3-4 mi trail race, to feel like I was
slacking. (The 3mi was the first leg of duathlon so I was probably holding back, and the 4mi race
probably only had a few hundred feet of hills, if that. I still think both of them are a little on
the short side since there's no way I approach 12min/mi on my normal routes.)

I usually use the flat treadmill as a place to catch my breath in the circuit, so it was really
weird to find myself reaching up and cranking up the speed to get a reasonable effort. They wanted
the treadmills left at 0% for now. Once they start cranking up the slope on those things (not sure
if that's on agenda for tomorrow am or not), up to 5% will probably still feel easy, about 10% is
where I notice it, and 15% I'm slowing down. This is why I look for hills >10% to be meaningful as
hills. But a 15% (nominal) treadmill slope does not approach anything except my gentlest hills (what
I'm calling 5-10%) for feeling. I can usually still have my heel land after my forefoot on a 15%
treadmill, but most of my real hills I need to do forefoot only as I don't have the achilles
flexibility to do that, and I'm not sure it's appropriate technique (one of the reasons I watched
the elites at WMRT and played/replayed DVD). This is why I try to do many of my drills on a ramp
rather than flat.

Knee jerk response 3: Footing on treadmill is so much easier than trail that the same conditioning
will result in faster pace. That is, footing (not so much softness) limits speed on trails. (might
be a corollary to KJR 2)

Alternative hypothesis 1: The change from the hill work (including a little steep single track) I
did from Mar to Aug made "flat" seem really easy. But I'm running mostly flat (relatively speaking)
trails right now. So I'd tend to reject this hypothesis.

Alternative hypothesis 2: One of the biomechanical issues my PT identified last year was
hypermobility in metatarsal region (or something like that) whereby my toes fail to act as lever. I
can see this slowing me down more on trails than on treadmill since the belt just keeps moving and I
pretty much just pick up my feet in appropriate cadence. If this is true, then at least for people
like me, treadmill running is definitely not the same as running on a motionless surface. This is
one reason I spend so much time on foot exercises and dorsiflexion.

Alt hyp 3: I run faster after 1.5 hr hard work 😉 Yea, right. Reject that one too. However, I do
notice that my achilles cooperates more in warm-hot weather, which I only get mid-summer or on
treadmill.

Another thought. My first couple times on the treadmill this fall, my gait was horribly bouncy and I
was having a tendency to run almost up on the front deck. I sped the treadmill up to a point where I
could use my normal stride and cadence. That was about 6mph, but felt I could go faster.

Also, since we've only met a few times so far this fall, I may not have the cumulative tiredness
that comes after several hard weeks like that (1-wk recovery isn't quite enough for total recovery,
esp. if I do some of the drills mid-week), but not sure that it would affect my trail running.

Keep in mind that speedwork to me might be some fartleks if footing permits so for me to crank up
the speed means something is really lacking.

YMMV, obviously.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Treadmills certainly have their advantages. Controllable inclines, no bad weather, etc. But with
road jogging, you don't get shot out the back of the thing, if you quit jogging suddenly.

In article said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

In article said:

I'd go by time and perceived effort on the treadmill. I think I've seen studies that say to
increase the slope by about 2% to make it equivalent effort to road.

My understanding is that this only takes into account the energy cost of drag.

And frequently that's all people are concerned about.

First, thanks for a lengthy and interesting response.

I think the rationale for being concerned only about that is ill-founded. If they are trying to use
it to decide how to adjust treadmill speed, it doesn't make sense. There is often an assumption that
it follows that the incline must be increased by 1% because of this. A more narrow goal would be to
try to account for factors that are unique to the treadmill, in which case either a fan should be
used, or heat should be accounted for.

At the end of the day, I think we agree that there are sources of variation that make air resistance
look very small in comparison.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do you think this has more to do with your usualy training surface (soft trails with lots of
hills) or something else ? I find it's pretty similar (I do about the same pace on treadmill and
other surfaces), but I usually run on pavement, road or track, which makes the treadmill the
slowest training surface I use.

Dunno.

Knee jerk response 1: Calibration errors. I have absolutely no idea how accurate the
treadmills are.

These could work in both directions. When I've tried measuring on my fitsense, the fitsense reads a
larger distance. Interval workouts seem harder on the treadmill, but that could have more to do with
heat plus the soft surface (slightly slower than a sythetic track)

Quoted message said:

My own measurements of distance are probably conservative so that my real pace is probably
underestimated (faster than what my numbers show).

That sounds plausible. When I use conservative measurements for training courses, the milage I log
would have me doing 9min per mile or so. I know from my runs in central park (where distances are
well known) that I'm going faster than this.

Quoted message said:

One of the reasons I posted the numbers was to give a sense of the degree of difference that can
exist - both in terms of calibration and the effect that footing has. With respect to trail
running, this fall was the first time I ran similar routes enough times under similar weather
conditions to even get a grasp on "average" pace. I always run by perceived effort. Things that
affect pace: wind, temperature, mud and its quality (not all muds are created equal, as Doug
will attest to), snow / ice (and their quality), falling snow, rain, dark, eyes staring back at
you in dark, etc. - and not just a few sec/mi, more like a couple min/mile in deep snow or
shoe-sucking mud.

Wow. A lot of these things never occurred to me -- brushed up against them before but most of the
time I've been able to run on fast surfaces. But now that you mention them it makes sense (when I
hit snow, mud, whatever, which is always only a short leg of the course, it's like having the
brakes on)

I can see why you run by perceived effort now -- I think if my running conditions resembled yours, I
would just do away with using milage to measure training load (In fact I'm considering dropping
milage and just logging time and perceived effort anyway)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Donovan Rebbechi said:

Wow. A lot of these things never occurred to me

And this is what trail runners thrive on 🙂

Quoted message said:

I can see why you run by perceived effort now

I did this even before switching to trails. There's a couple long threads a couple years ago when I
was first struggling with how to log time in snow - not a few patches occasionally, but mostly snow
runs on paved bike trail from late October to early April. Sometimes thin and hardpacked, sometimes
6 inches fresh and everything in between. Even time isn't a good measure for these types of things.
Then I got into trails with all their diversity, threw my hands up, and just enjoy the run - based
on time and effort, but log trail and weather conditions. That makes it easy to include mt biking,
skiing, hiking (at just below
VT), snowshoeing, snowshoe running, etc in the same log.

-- I think if my running

Quoted message said:

conditions resembled yours, I would just do away with using milage to measure training load (In
fact I'm considering dropping milage and just logging time and perceived effort anyway)

The thing I've found is that most recommendations for training specific systems (esp. physiology)
depend on time at certain efforts (easy, all out, etc), sometimes with recoveries mixed in. I'm
using things like Owen Anderson, Noakes, Peak Perforance, etc. I've found I get a lot more out of
my training - and challenge myself more - by doing it this way since I understand the purpose of
each run (granted, sometimes to explore new terrain, but usually TOL, strength, or LT or
something). It enables me to train smarter. I do log mileage after the fact to get an idea whether
I have close to enough distance (or elevation gain) for a particular race, but it doesn't figure in
the actual run itself.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people" -Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

In article <[email hidden]>, Harold Buck

Quoted message said:

In article said:

n article said:

I'd go by time and perceived effort on the treadmill. I think I've seen studies that say to
increase the slope by about 2% to make it equivalent effort to road.

My understanding is that this only takes into account the energy cost of drag. It doesn't take
into account the lesser cooling that you get on a treadmill with no airflow in a warm room.

I've heard that you don't get any significant effects from air resistance unil about 18 mph, so
that running on a treadmill is not significantly easier than running elsewhere. Who's right?

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night, and party every day. Then it was every other day. . . ."

- Homer J. Simpson

Make sure to set the incline to 1-2 % for equivalent resistance to road running. I also find
continuous running at 0% incline on a treadmill hard on my knees.

--mikeb

In article said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Harold Buck

Quoted message said:

In article said:

n article <[email hidden]>, Dot wrote:

> I'd go by time and perceived effort on the treadmill. I think I've seen studies that say to
> increase the slope by about 2% to make it equivalent effort to road.

My understanding is that this only takes into account the energy cost of drag. It doesn't take
into account the lesser cooling that you get on a treadmill with no airflow in a warm room.

I've heard that you don't get any significant effects from air resistance unil about 18 mph, so
that running on a treadmill is not significantly easier than running elsewhere. Who's right?

Quoted message said:

Make sure to set the incline to 1-2 % for equivalent resistance to road running.

Again, this idea of "equivalent resistance" is nonsense, as has been pointed out. What the incline
will do is compensate for energy lost as a result of drag, assuming a certain pace. However, you
will get hotter on the treadmill due to inadequate cooling and airflow. If you want "equivalent"
resistance, you need to set up fans to ensure proper airflow, and you had also better calibrate the
treadmill. This is necessary even to simulate the factors that are specific to running indoors on a
staionary object. It doesn't address issues such as wind and training surface, etc. So the whole
notion of "equivalent resistance" is pretty silly because it is unatainable, in fact you don't get
anything even close to it outdoors (for example, compare a fast track surface or pavement to a muddy
or snow covered trail)

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Chris Clark won the women's 2000 US Olympic Marathon Trials and trained almost exclusively on a
treadmill. She lives in Alaska and couldn't train outside due to the snow. Ann Trason (superwoman
ultramarathoner) also uses a treadmill a lot.

My experience with hotel treadmills is they are typically pretty cheap and wouldn't be suitable for
running on for hours. You'd probably need to locate a health club, be sure to check if they have
time limits on the cardio equipment.

[email hidden] (alan m) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi, I am now travelling for business alot more than I was in the past. I have never used
treadmills (Except for a rehab a couple yrs. ago) For my marathon training can I use hotel
treadmills and get the same training benefit as I do on a road?

I run(jog?) about a 10:00 minute pace (215 lbs.!) / so about 6 mph.

In a strange town I don't know the distances, where the local water fountains are, if it is even
safe, ...

Any input would be appreciated. Thank you.

(bigsky) said:

Chris Clark won the women's 2000 US Olympic Marathon Trials and trained almost exclusively on a
treadmill. She lives in Alaska and couldn't train outside due to the snow. Ann Trason (superwoman
ultramarathoner) also uses a treadmill a lot.

Yes, but AS A SECOND CHOICE, not first, and she'd do much better if she trained on real roads.

In article said:

(bigsky) said:

Chris Clark won the women's 2000 US Olympic Marathon Trials and trained almost exclusively on a
treadmill. She lives in Alaska and couldn't train outside due to the snow. Ann Trason (superwoman
ultramarathoner) also uses a treadmill a lot.

Yes, but AS A SECOND CHOICE, not first, and she'd do much better if she trained on real roads.

You keep repeating this like it's gospel. Now here's the trump card:

evidence please ?

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗