Training Camp Alps

bigwillie013 said:

Any thoughts on this?

Yeah, don't apologise for talking metric 😄

Why not do a "look ahead" estimate of TSS and see what impact it has on CTL?

I just came off a similar thing and my CTL was at 75 prior. Each day ran around 250-350 TSS. My TSB was -110 on the very last day. I then took 8 days off from biking with some easy workouts (running and swimming) in between. 2 weeks after the event, my FTP is up 9%. So, it seems like this type of thing can improve your form. But I did need 2-3 days to get the legs back.

However, I never rode any of the climbs anywhere near FTP but rather at lower SST. In terms of training, you might want to make sure that you recover well (check TSB) so that you can train a bit harder throughout the eight days. Maybe you can ride some climbs at SST and some at FTP?

bigwillie013 said:

I'll be heading to the Alps next Saturday (Aug 2nd) for 8 days with my club. As this camp for me isn't the major event of the year but a race 2 weeks later (Aug. 23rd) I wonder how to gauge the stages correctly to ascertain max gain for my race. Putting it down too hard will lower my physics and not going fast enough will not use the trip propery.

Currently I plan to recover on days 4 and 8 (3:1 on/off scheme)
My FTP currently 290W (4,1W/kg) and ATL 100, CTL 89
Normal training schedule is less long, usually only 60-70km, maxing at 100km. But also has the 3:1 on/off schedule.

Any thoughts on this?

@ TamMan: Nahhh, 1 week off the bike??? 😕 I was planning to be 2 days off, then a day at L1/L2, another rest day and back to normal training schedule... Too ambitious?
lower SST was also my guesstimate for the climbs with some chunks of L4 to be thrown in at the odd occasion (club colleagues to be smashed into pieces 😄 ).
A 10% increase in FTP???? :eek: That's no good 😄 as it would take my goal for next year away already this year (being 4,5W/kg):p

@ Alex: how does this "look ahead" estimate work? I use WKO+ but wouldn't know how to do any ahead planning/guessing... is this commom knowledge and me just stupid or ignorant?

bigwillie013 said:

@ Alex: how does this "look ahead" estimate work? I use WKO+ but wouldn't know how to do any ahead planning/guessing... is this commom knowledge and me just stupid or ignorant?

well what you can do is create some manual workout entries in WKO+ and enter in a TSS value for each based on your estimate for the day. Then you can see how that plays out with the performance manager chart.

Or you can scour the forum for the formulae used to calculate CTL/ATL/TSB and create your own spreadsheet.

bigwillie013 said:

... is this commom knowledge and me just stupid or ignorant?

Not stupid BTW.

WKO+ doesn't have a planning feature.

Only those who've been around the traps for a while and have access to their own spreadsheets have got this bit nailed.

bigwillie013 said:

Any thoughts on this?

Yes, in addition what others have said... I am jealous [img]cyclingforums.combiggrin.gifOpen ↗[/img]!

Seriously, hope you record and present after the camp (including how you recover, etc). It is very interesting to hear the results!

Now, here I'm back and for those who are interested here are my experiences:

the schedule: actual (in km and Meters elevation)
1 52km, 500HM 63km, 1,143Hm, 91 TSS, 0.626IF, 2:20h
2 138km, 3.600Hm 130km, 3,220Hm, 246 TSS, 0.677IF, 5:23h
3 120km, 2.000Hm 116km, 3,197Hm, 196 TSS, 0.696IF, 4:03h
4 130km, 2.800Hm day off for rest
5 135km, 2.500HM 130km, 3,016Hm, 270 TSS, 0.723IF, 5:10h (hardest day but liked it)
6 110km, 2.000HM 158km, 2,505Hm, 222 TSS, 0.621IF, 5:45h
7 130km, 1.500Hm 137km, 3,250Hm, 258 TSS, 0.683IF, 5:32h
8 70km, ????Hm day off for rest (rainy anyway)
Total: 734km, 16,331Hm, 1,283 TSS, 28:13 (normally I only do 1,200km per month!)

All went right so far except day 2 when I went far too quick into Stilfser Joch and blew it (1st half 260W, 2nd half 165W!). Since then I tried to average max 240W and min 225W on the hills. On the last day I did the final climb of the camp (Grossglockner) with 220W but definitely felt that was it for now.

My FTP before 290W (4,1W/kg) and ATL 100, CTL 89
last day of Camp: ATL 153, CTL 100.7 and TSB -52.3
according to yesterdays first ride after 2 days off: FTP min. 300W (4,3W/kg),
legs feel good, not weared, obviously paced myself good, IF always been fairly low.
Plan to take an easy week this week and will have a race this weekend and next weekend 2 races (being my seasons high). Let's see how far I can get with my FTP until in 10 days as I didn't give it all yesterday. L5's are planned to really peak now.

Very nice, thanks!

Quite a sensible approach to keep the IF down. TSB is still somewhat manageable. I would have probably went harder in enthusiasm and hit the wall [img]cyclingforums.combiggrin.gifOpen ↗[/img].

Have you been doing L5 so far this season? If not I am quite sure once you start now your FTP shoots through the roof.

I have been doing some L5 every once in a while (last time 4 weeks ago) but not for a longer period. I'll be interested to see what happens in the next 2 weeks with some low volume, high intensity training to try to peak for Aug 23rd.

Like you thought for yourself over enthusiasm led me to go too fast on the Stilfser Joch and I hit the wall. I didn't have to have this again, so kept it lower.😎

First off congratulations! Those were some epic days in the saddle. BTW my own experience parallels yours BW. I doubled my volume, with lots of climbing at slightly lower intensity over the course of 3 weeks, and by week 4, after a short taper my FTP went up around 3%. I was riding wheels in my local group ride that I had not been able to hold before.

The one question that comes to mind is why these gains came so quickly? I've heard a few coaches say/write that true adaptation takes roughly 6+ weeks to achieve, so why were we able to see gains in a much shorter time period, especially since we weren't starting from an untrained state?

gene r

if I have understood the trainings philosophy correctly it's only likely to take home gains from such a "camp" if you didn't overdo it in the first place (which will be the reason why most of my mates who were with me in the Alps won't see huge gains if at all :p - hammering it to just become first on the summit😉 ) and rested properly inbetween (3 on-1 off) and afterwards. Because it's said that adaptations will only occur in the rest time and not while training. Now that's just my 2 cents.

bigwillie013 said:

if I have understood the trainings philosophy correctly it's only likely to take home gains from such a "camp" if you didn't overdo it in the first place (which will be the reason why most of my mates who were with me in the Alps won't see huge gains if at all :p - hammering it to just become first on the summit😉 ) and rested properly inbetween (3 on-1 off) and afterwards. Because it's said that adaptations will only occur in the rest time and not while training. Now that's just my 2 cents.

It's very interesting issue that hopefully someone who knows something about these things comments, but understanding is that:
1. you still get rest every day
2. different adaptations take different amount of time
--> unless you overcook it bad, adaptations continue happen even when you are training but it is the fatigue caused by training that prevents them to be visible until you rest properly.