Tour Power Data

[kopride]

The Saris website is providing power data for some of the tour riders. It is worth looking at. These guys are generating some huge power numbers day after day. Quite humbling to me as a weekend warrior
http://app.bronto.com/public/?q=preview_message&fn=Link&t=1&ssid=9243&id=9ito6ag3puix4t325bj2t7a6z6yps&id2=hgcbdjydtw1j1mouwy4m8npg6s70z

 

[Felt_Rider]

Very humbling indeed

 

[kopride]

This is an interesting comment on the big picture:

For most of the guys we've got at the Tour an average day on the bike will be somewhere in the 3 to 4 watt per kg range including zeros. If you don't include zeros, most of our guys will have a power output when pedaling of about 3.5 to 4.5 watts per kg depending on the course. In general, a hard effort for our riders starts at about 4 watts per kg (that's 280 watts for a 70 kg rider) – a power output they can hold for well over 3 hours if pressed and if fed properly (meaning a lot). At about 5 watts per kg, things start to feel very hard. It's the speed that the main field tends to roll at while climbing and a power output that our guys can hold for up to 1.5 hrs. At about 6 watts per kg, the leaders are off the front on the big climbs. This is a power output that the best climbers on our team can hold for 20 to 30 minutes. At this power and this time frame, we're talking an all out effort. And if sustained repeatedly over 3 to 4 major passes on a 5 to 6 hour mountain day, we're talking a Grand Tour winner.

Now this is for several hours a day for consecutive days. Imagine holding 280 watts for 3 plus hours and then putting in intermittent efforts at 5 to 6 watts per kg during the climbs. Then you have to hold 5 watts per kg for 1.5 hours to keep up with the pack during the climbs. I can't wait to see the data on the mountain stages. And these guys are racing clean with the best testing regieme out there. IMHO, this is the exact kind of transparency needed if pro cycling is going to leave the EPO/pharm racing behind them.

 

[Felt_Rider]

Imagine if you replaced all of us and Tyson on the "It's killing me....." thread with all pro tour riders and imagine their discussion of goals? If we were onlookers of that thread it might be very discouraging.

 

[jsirabella]

If you do come by my office and use the CT this is where the Hungarian racer I told you about that he shares a room in my office trains. I use it and his equipment as part of the deal. We have 2 CTs actually and tons of parts and frames laying around.

He is not into power training as he was part of the Hungarian national team when it was communist and was basically paid to ride. He started training when he was in his teens. I clocked him before he left for europe to race on a new Hungarian team at 260 watts for 3 hours and still had plenty left in the tank. He looks like the guys in the magazines, not very tall and I believe he is about 150-169lbs or so.

This stuff does not happen overnight boys!! The conditioning takes years. Also he is a big believer in what I call the just ride training. He keeps telling me, there is no magic bullet, the more hours you put in the better you will get. He believes in the old style of lots of hours in the saddle and lots of recovery time. He surprisingly recommends alot of recovery time to me.

He has been a bit surprised when he has given me his test how I have done recently. But he keeps telling me I am too heavy and best suited for CX or TT. He really loves CX and believes it is the best training if I want to see my power numbers go up. Honestly though while he is a kewl guy, I have only seen my numbers go up under Dave's advice. Zoli's style of training is just too touchy feely and not enough numbers for me.

-js

The Saris website is providing power data for some of the tour riders. It is worth looking at. These guys are generating some huge power numbers day after day. Quite humbling to me as a weekend warrior
http://app.bronto.com/public/?q=preview_message&fn=Link&t=1&ssid=9243&id=9ito6ag3puix4t325bj2t7a6z6yps&id2=hgcbdjydtw1j1mouwy4m8npg6s70z

 

[kopride]

If you do come by my office and use the CT this is where the Hungarian racer I told you about that he shares a room in my office trains. I use it and his equipment as part of the deal. We have 2 CTs actually and tons of parts and frames laying around.


-js

A CT ride would be great. Is your office in Manhattan? I am staying close to CP at the 4S. Do I need to bring a bike? or just my shoes and pedals

 

[jsirabella]

My wife is the real thing...born and raised in Manhattan and never learned how to drive. I moved to Manhattan when we started to live together.

My office is between 36-37th and 8th Avenue. Unfortunately I do not have a 56cm so you need to either bring your bike or call Sids or somewhere else to rent one. They are not to far away on 34th street and east side.

It is a nice room with air conditioner, fans...nice set up. Just tell if you can do it....got guys/gals coming in all the time to train.

-js

A CT ride would be great. Is your office in Manhattan? I am staying close to CP at the 4S. Do I need to bring a bike? or just my shoes and pedals

 

[kopride]

My wife is the real thing...born and raised in Manhattan and never learned how to drive. I moved to Manhattan when we started to live together.

My office is between 36-37th and 8th Avenue. Unfortunately I do not have a 56cm so you need to either bring your bike or call Sids or somewhere else to rent one. They are not to far away on 34th street and east side.

It is a nice room with air conditioner, fans...nice set up. Just tell if you can do it....got guys/gals coming in all the time to train.

-js

I will call Sids and get over, "you made me an offer I couldn't refuse."

 

[jsirabella]

Sounds good...just let me know the date and time you will make it. The room is our server room so you know it will be nice and cool. Got a couple fans also. Just do not mind the computer equipment and a/c units.

You can bring a DVD to watch or music to play if you want. Sids actually sponsors Zoli's local team here in NYC. They are registered with CRCA of CP.

-js

I will call Sids and get over, "you made me an offer I couldn't refuse."

 

[velomanct]

400watts for 36 minutes isn't crazy at all, considering these are elite grand tour pros.

Back when I was training for endurance I did one tempo ride at 322watts average (including the 0s during turns and such) for up to 3 hours (at 80kg). Mind you, I was nothing more than a competitive cat 3 here in New England. My best 20 minute effort was a rolling ~8 miles at 350w real average, none of that normalized power BS where you guys don't include the zeros. If watts is 0, then you are recovering, so how can you not include the 0s? Seems like "cheating" to get your 'average' power higher. HA.

I've have NP during crits at around 450watts for an hour. Does that mean I can do an actual 450w for an hour? No. Not at all. Crits are either coasting or hammering, NP is going to be wicked high.

 

[Piotr]

I've have NP during crits at around 450watts for an hour. Does that mean I can do an actual 450w for an hour? No. Not at all. ...

Actually, it's closer to "yes, it does" than to "no, it doesn't". Which brings me to: How many times did you lap the field?

 

[velomanct]

I'm not about to get into another one of these cyclingforums arguements here. If you want to believe that NP means anything of importance, then go ahead.

And I'm nothing more than an average racer, I prob finished 15th in that crit.


Now that I have a powertap again, I'm going to give you guys a nice 20 minute effort. I'll post the file which will have an insane NP, no where near an average power that I could do conventionally, using a straight average with steady effort. I'll even wear a heart rate monitor so you can see the overall cardiovascular effort.

 

[kopride]

I'm not about to get into another one of these cyclingforums arguements here. If you want to believe that NP means anything of importance, then go ahead.

And I'm nothing more than an average racer, I prob finished 15th in that crit.


Now that I have a powertap again, I'm going to give you guys a nice 20 minute effort. I'll post the file which will have an insane NP, no where near an average power that I could do conventionally, using a straight average with steady effort. I'll even wear a heart rate monitor so you can see the overall cardiovascular effort.

Or better yet, just do a one hour TT and post in the 2008 FTP under the Power Training chart. That way you can compare yourself Apples with Apples. The tour data is great because we can all see what the best of the best are doing under race conditions. So, it is even more reliable than our own little chart, which does rely upon the good faith of the individual posters. But in any event, I would be surprised in a crit if you are seeing more than 5% deviation between average and NP. So, for 450 NP (425 average?) for an hour, even assuming the zeros were dropped, puts you in pretty elite company as far as FTP. The numbers these tour guys are posting on consecutive days are unworldly. Really, if you have ever had the opportunity to ride with even a domestique or average pro who is riding in the grand tours, take it. I have seen one of them, a Spago pro who was training locally before the Philly Corestates Classic in the 90s, drop a whole group of fast club riders (mixed Cat 1s and 2s, with some fast 3s) so soundly, it looked like Lebron James playing with the girls Jr High CYO B-team. First, it was hang on for dear life for a minute or two, then it was 30 guys watching his jersey get smaller and smaller. There is fast. . . and then there is really f###'in fast. The boys on the grand tours are the latter, the local boys riding the local club races are just fast and aren't putting out 475-500 watts for an hour in local crits, NP, average power. ( Assuming that if you finished 15th in Cat 3, then the top cat 1s would have had to average 25-50 watts more an would be close to 475 plus). Please excuse our healthy skepticism.

 

[acoggan]

none of that normalized power BS where you guys don't include the zeros.

Zero values are included in the calculation of normalized power.

 

[jsirabella]

KO,

Similar to other sports I have found the really elite athletes do not talk about their stats very often. It is guys like me who are still in the "untrained" level who need to do it just to try and build some confidence.

Trust me if you are really that good, you do not have to post your numbers anywhere. Someone will do it for you...

The producers of Juno do not need to tell the world how much they have grossed, there are plenty of places that will do it for them.

-js

Or better yet, just do a one hour TT and post in the 2008 FTP under the Power Training chart. That way you can compare yourself Apples with Apples. The tour data is great because we can all see what the best of the best are doing under race conditions. So, it is even more reliable than our own little chart, which does rely upon the good faith of the individual posters. But in any event, I would be surprised in a crit if you are seeing more than 5% deviation between average and NP. So, for 450 NP (425 average?) for an hour, even assuming the zeros were dropped, puts you in pretty elite company as far as FTP. The numbers these tour guys are posting on consecutive days are unworldly. Really, if you have ever had the opportunity to ride with even a domestique or average pro who is riding in the grand tours, take it. I have seen one of them, a Spago pro who was training locally before the Philly Corestates Classic in the 90s, drop a whole group of fast club riders (mixed Cat 1s and 2s, with some fast 3s) so soundly, it looked like Lebron James playing with the girls Jr High CYO B-team. First, it was hang on for dear life for a minute or two, then it was 30 guys watching his jersey get smaller and smaller. There is fast. . . and then there is really f###'in fast. The boys on the grand tours are the latter, the local boys riding the local club races are just fast and aren't putting out 475-500 watts for an hour in local crits, NP, average power. ( Assuming that if you finished 15th in Cat 3, then the top cat 1s would have had to average 25-50 watts more an would be close to 475 plus). Please excuse our healthy skepticism.

 

[kopride]

KO,

Trust me if you are really that good, you do not have to post your numbers anywhere. Someone will do it for you...

-js

I hear you, and sometimes people fudge a bit. I post on Largejohnsonbigwallet.com as "Kopwad," and I unfortunately had to add "0" to both metrics. Fortunately, nobody has called me on it yet.

 

[postal_bag]

I hear you, and sometimes people fudge a bit. I post on Largejohnsonbigwallet.com as "Kopwad," and I unfortunately had to add "0" to both metrics. Fortunately, nobody has called me on it yet.

FWIW, I believe almost anyone with an FTP of only ~300w could average 260w for ~3 hrs.

 

[jsirabella]

KO,

I never checked out the 2008 ftp thread. I can see we will all be pretty soon doing nationals. Can not wait to quit my job, maybe head to europe, start racing everyday in Italy...and those eurochicks are hot!

In a recent article on the only other board I check, they gave a list of the top 10 reasons why people do not hit thier goals. Top 10 included more posting and not enough doing....

...based upon my number of posts I can see I am not doing well.

All I know is that my friend today is racing in Italy, pretty much every few days, came in 13th in the Hungarian nationals prior to now racing in Italy with his team and has decided this is his life and livin the dream at 42.

He is not here posting about whether 260 watts is good for 3 hours or not....

...not that he would care.

-js

I hear you, and sometimes people fudge a bit. I post on Largejohnsonbigwallet.com as "Kopwad," and I unfortunately had to add "0" to both metrics. Fortunately, nobody has called me on it yet.

 

[velomanct]

Or better yet, just do a one hour TT and post in the 2008 FTP under the Power Training chart. That way you can compare yourself Apples with Apples. The tour data is great because we can all see what the best of the best are doing under race conditions. So, it is even more reliable than our own little chart, which does rely upon the good faith of the individual posters. But in any event, I would be surprised in a crit if you are seeing more than 5% deviation between average and NP. So, for 450 NP (425 average?) for an hour, even assuming the zeros were dropped, puts you in pretty elite company as far as FTP. The numbers these tour guys are posting on consecutive days are unworldly. Really, if you have ever had the opportunity to ride with even a domestique or average pro who is riding in the grand tours, take it. I have seen one of them, a Spago pro who was training locally before the Philly Corestates Classic in the 90s, drop a whole group of fast club riders (mixed Cat 1s and 2s, with some fast 3s) so soundly, it looked like Lebron James playing with the girls Jr High CYO B-team. First, it was hang on for dear life for a minute or two, then it was 30 guys watching his jersey get smaller and smaller. There is fast. . . and then there is really f###'in fast. The boys on the grand tours are the latter, the local boys riding the local club races are just fast and aren't putting out 475-500 watts for an hour in local crits, NP, average power. ( Assuming that if you finished 15th in Cat 3, then the top cat 1s would have had to average 25-50 watts more an would be close to 475 plus). Please excuse our healthy skepticism.

You are getting way too analytical about this. I already know what I can do for an hour, and my best was around 340watts, REAL power. I am a bigger rider, so that doesn't go very far as 340 would go for most pros.

I'll see if I can find the crit I am talking about, although since I dont have cyclingpeaks anymore, it won't give you an actual NP number.

So if NP does include zeros, then I am mistaken. I was under the impression it excluded all zeros. How is NP calculated?

 

[kopride]

FWIW, I believe almost anyone with an FTP of only ~300w could average 260w for ~3 hrs.

Sure, on a one time effort, I could see someone with a 300 FTP holding 87% of FTP for 3 hours. But what is being described in the TDF power profile is that after they have been riding like that for three hours, the pack then takes it up another 70 watts for 1.5 hours. Perhaps with a few 30 minute efforts at 140 watts above threshold. And then do it day in and day out for nearly a month, with a 400 watt TT for 40 minutes being thrown in there as well. These guys are silly scary fast.