touching the void

Adrian Tupper <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

He took the unenviable view that both would have died if he left it any
longer. He was barely able to hold the rope at that point anyway.

Yep.
The first rule of life is to save yourself. This is only made obsolete
when you have children. Ask any mother, or most fathers. ;-)

In reality, he probably helped to save Joe's life by cutting him free,
because the two of them could have fallen to the real bottom of that
crevasse, never to escape.
--
Gordon

The message <[email hidden]>
from "Sie" <siejones@freeuk_nocrap_.com> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Hmmm don't want to argue on this but Simon did not know whether Joe was
alive or not. He spent a long period of time risking his own life holding
onto what for all he knew was a hanging corpse.

It doesn't seem to have crossed your mind that we don't need to
speculate whether the body on the other end of the rope was alive or
dead.

Quoted message said:

Why the relation to a guide? He was of equal ability to Joe and therefore
they were just as responsible for each other. It wasn't like he was baby
sitting.

Relation? Just what are you on? The reference to the events on Everest
was an allusion to a rather acrimonious discussion on this ng some time
ago.

Quoted message said:

Come on read the book/watch the film as get facts right before instantly
making a judgement! Cut the rope....ahhhhhh....against climbers
code.....don't investigate the circumstances.....accuse!

The one making an instant judgement is yourself. I expressed no
judgement and made no accusations unlike yourself.

I read the book some time ago (and indeed praised it on this ng) and
FWIW I thought Yates had no choice but to cut the rope. However I was
interested in whether there are any other documented references to
something like that happening elsewhere as I couldn't recall a single
instance. It does seem a bit of a taboo subject just as cannibalism in
extremis has been, at least until very recently.

and oh yes. Another top poster I can do without - PLONK!

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 69 summits
New - 47 (Marilyns 13, Sweats 5, Outlying Fells 35)
Repeats - 22( Marilyns 7, Sweats 16, Wainwrights 16)

Gordon <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Adrian Tupper <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

He took the unenviable view that both would have died if he left it any
longer. He was barely able to hold the rope at that point anyway.

Yep.
The first rule of life is to save yourself. This is only made obsolete
when you have children. Ask any mother, or most fathers. ;-)

Yes, I know what you mean.

Quoted message said:

In reality, he probably helped to save Joe's life by cutting him free,
because the two of them could have fallen to the real bottom of that
crevasse, never to escape.

That's an interesting point. I don't know if it occurred to Simon
at the time but there is some sense in that and probably something to
be noted by climbers finding themselves in the same situation.

--
Adrian

Quoted message said:

It doesn't seem to have crossed your mind that we don't need to
speculate whether the body on the other end of the rope was alive or
dead.

It's you that claimed the he knew he was alive on the other end of the rope.
I quote
"But did you find any other instances of climbers cutting still living
climbing partners ropes so that they could survive while their partner
did not?"
Note the still living part.

Quoted message said:

Relation? Just what are you on? The reference to the events on Everest
was an allusion to a rather acrimonious discussion on this ng some time
ago.

If it was not a relation why bring it up?. You were making a point about the
cutting the rope subject were you not. Or were you going off on another
subject? hmmmmm

Quoted message said:

The one making an instant judgement is yourself. I expressed no
judgement and made no accusations unlike yourself.

It certainly sounded like an accusation to me. Maybe the other poster who
has replyed in a similar vain to my post may influence you how you post came
across.

Quoted message said:

I read the book some time ago (and indeed praised it on this ng) and
FWIW I thought Yates had no choice but to cut the rope. However I was
interested in whether there are any other documented references to
something like that happening elsewhere as I couldn't recall a single
instance. It does seem a bit of a taboo subject just as cannibalism in
extremis has been, at least until very recently.

Because there was no other recorded instance of it then that makes it the
wrong thing to do? Not all circumstances are the same you know.

Quoted message said:

and oh yes. Another top poster I can do without - PLONK!

I'm sorry where does that PLONK belong again? We can all be abusive. [censored]!

Sie

Adrian Tupper <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Gordon <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

In reality, he probably helped to save Joe's life by cutting him free,
because the two of them could have fallen to the real bottom of that
crevasse, never to escape.

That's an interesting point. I don't know if it occurred to Simon
at the time but there is some sense in that and probably something to
be noted by climbers finding themselves in the same situation.

One of the worst climbing images I encountered was in The White Spider
(I think![1]), in an account of someone dying on the end of a rope in
space on the Eiger, being unable to reach the face.

It's rather a thick book to scan through..... ;-)

[1] I hope it wasn't something from the Eiger Sanction, I think they did
use a similar scenario.
--
Gordon

Gordon wrote

Quoted message said:

One of the worst climbing images I encountered was in The White Spider
(I think![1]), in an account of someone dying on the end of a rope in
space on the Eiger, being unable to reach the face.

Toni Kurz, I think, stranded dangling in space below an overhang just above
the window on the lower face. The White Spider is one of the classic
mountaineering books and though...

Quoted message said:

It's rather a thick book to scan through..... ;-)

....it's well worth a read, despite being rather dated.

Quoted message said:

[1] I hope it wasn't something from the Eiger Sanction, I think they did
use a similar scenario.

A direct, er, lift.

T.

In article <[email hidden]>, Tony Buckley

URL: said:

Gordon wrote

Quoted message said:

One of the worst climbing images I encountered was in The White Spider
(I think![1]), in an account of someone dying on the end of a rope in
space on the Eiger, being unable to reach the face.

Toni Kurz, I think, stranded dangling in space below an overhang just above
the window on the lower face. The White Spider is one of the classic
mountaineering books and though...

Quoted message said:

It's rather a thick book to scan through..... ;-)

...it's well worth a read, despite being rather dated.

Joe Simpson also covers it in "The Beckoning Silence".

Mike
--
o/ \\ // || ,_ o Mike Clark, "An antibody engineer who also
<\__,\\ // __o || / /\, likes the mountains"
"> || _`\<,_ // \\ \> | Cambridge Climbing and Caving Club
` || (_)/ (_) // \\ \_ <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/cccc/>

Tony Buckley <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Gordon wrote

Quoted message said:

One of the worst climbing images I encountered was in The White Spider
(I think![1]), in an account of someone dying on the end of a rope in
space on the Eiger, being unable to reach the face.

Toni Kurz, I think, stranded dangling in space below an overhang just above
the window on the lower face. The White Spider is one of the classic
mountaineering books and though...

Quoted message said:

It's rather a thick book to scan through..... ;-)

...it's well worth a read, despite being rather dated.

It certainly is, how otherwise would I know how the Hintersteusser (sp?)
Traverse got it's name, The Spider was more obvious.
It must be the best book of the development of the Face from early
attempts.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

[1] I hope it wasn't something from the Eiger Sanction, I think they did
use a similar scenario.

A direct, er, lift.

--
Gordon

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

The first rule of life is to save yourself. This is only made obsolete
when you have children. Ask any mother, or most fathers. ;-)

Yes.

Quoted message said:

In reality, he probably helped to save Joe's life by cutting him free,
because the two of them could have fallen to the real bottom of that
crevasse, never to escape.

It's a tough call in any case. Since none of us have ever been
in the position those two men were in and since none of us
(please God) is ever likely to be, none of us has the right to
judge. In any situation one does what appears to be the right
thing at the time, and then having taken the responsibility one
lives with the consequences. Whether the decision was right or
wrong only becomes clear with the passage of time. 20:20
hindsight is a wonderful thing.
--
I try to be a good example to my children, but they just see me
as a dire warning.

"Chris Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Boo boo@spam_me_no_spam.net said:

Quoted message said:

watched it for the first time at rheged last night,Simon Yates

introduced

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

it,he's definitely not over the criticism he got for cutting the rope

but

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

there are not many who would have done things differently in the same
position,those who say they would never have cut the rope but have not

been

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in the same position are talking bolloc*s.

Quoted message said:

I would have hauled him up arm-over-arm.

But very few people, including fit climbers, have the upper body
strength to be able to do that in those conditions after what they'd
been through. In fact not many have the strength to be able to do it
arm-over-arm on a fine summer's day after a good breakfast -- they
have to do such hauling using back and legs, with arms simply
controlling rope feed and lock. Which is only possible when you have a
stance which supports such leg & back work. Which Yates didn't.

Of course there are some climbers of quite exceptional strength. I was
once chosen, because I was the lightest guy in the place, to be held
under one arm while the prodigiously muscled Robin Smith put his other
hand over a rafter beam and did a one arm pull up, carrying me.

Just out of curiosity, what weight of climber can you haul up
arm-over-arm on a climbing rope?

Slightly unrelated, but I can pull myself up a double rope, hand over hand.
Although, I am only 9.5st. I reckon I could lift a similar weight by pulling
the rope, obviously I'm not taking into account rope drag etc. I *guess* I
could haul about 8stone without a pulley system after taking into account
minimal rope drag.

Treefrog said:

Quoted message said:

Just out of curiosity, what weight of climber can you haul up
arm-over-arm on a climbing rope?

Quoted message said:

Slightly unrelated, but I can pull myself up a double rope, hand over hand.

Right, but you are a tree frog, after all. I bet you're a pretty good
jumper, too.

Quoted message said:

Although, I am only 9.5st.

Wow, the stuff of which nightmares are made...!

Please remind me not to stand under your tree!

:-)

Best wishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \

Treefrog said:

"Chris Malcolm" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Boo <boo@spam_me_no_spam.net> writes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would have hauled him up arm-over-arm.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But very few people, including fit climbers, have the upper body
strength to be able to do that in those conditions after what they'd
been through. In fact not many have the strength to be able to do it
arm-over-arm on a fine summer's day after a good breakfast -- they
have to do such hauling using back and legs, with arms simply
controlling rope feed and lock. Which is only possible when you have a
stance which supports such leg & back work. Which Yates didn't.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Just out of curiosity, what weight of climber can you haul up
arm-over-arm on a climbing rope?

Quoted message said:

Slightly unrelated, but I can pull myself up a double rope, hand over hand.
Although, I am only 9.5st. I reckon I could lift a similar weight by pulling
the rope, obviously I'm not taking into account rope drag etc. I *guess* I
could haul about 8stone without a pulley system after taking into account
minimal rope drag.

Your weight is interesting with respect to being able to pull yourself
up by your arms. I've noticed that folk with big muscles from the gym
(and steroids?) are on average much less likely to be able to do that
than skinny folk. I've heard army fitness trainers on TV make the same
observation while folk are struggling over assault courses. But I
would expect that muscular folk would have a higher proportion of body
weight in their muscles than skinny folk, and if their arms are more
muscular in the same proportion as their other muscles, they ought to
be able to pull themselves up *more* easily.

The only way I can explain this observation is by supposing that the
big muscles of heavily muscled folk are somehow much less efficient,
weight for oomph, than the muscles of skinny folk. Which seems odd.
--
Chris Malcolm [email hidden] +44 (0)131 651 3445 DoD #205
IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

"Treefrog" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

I *guess* I

Quoted message said:

could haul about 8stone without a pulley system after taking into account
minimal rope drag.

Hmm, having been at both ends of the "give us a tight rope" scenario many
times, I *guess* you couldn't.

Roy.

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